JL Audio Fathom Sub and 802Ds

[skuzzyb]

Has anyone yet paired the JLAudio Fathom Sub F112 or F113 with the 802Ds? I am very curious as to how well they integrate. I have read great things about the subs but have not had the chance of hearing them myself. I know, I should trust my ears and go have a listen but living here in middle earth makes it a bit dificult. I currently am looking at adding the ASW855 but am also interested in other options. One other option which I have heard and sounds incredible is the Wilson Benesch Torus (dont laugh) "Infrasonic Generator" so now I am very interested in knowing how the JL Audio stacks up. One think I must say is that the Wilson Benesch is the most "musical" sub I have ever heard, and it was paired with the 802Ds at the time.

[jayhawk75]

i believe kal is toying with this set up currently

[Kal Rubinson]

i believe kal is toying with this set up currently

May issue.

Kal

[ssabripo]

Amarkus has one with his 802Ds....send him a PM

[Amarkus1]

I am in love with my F113. I am not usually a big fan of bass but that has all changed. I had a Velodyne HTS12 (forget model number but top of the line before the DD series) and there is just no comparison. The music just sounds so much richer and bolder but not in a thumping way. I guess the best way to explain it is like when you go to a concert. At a concert you can actually feel the drums or guitar bass inside of you, in a good way. The sounds that just stir up the sole which is exactly what this sub replicates. The sound of a kicker drum is just so real in tone and feeling. I never used to listen music using a sub because I believed it took away from the clarity of the 802D and would sound bloated but that has all changed. I now have my speakers set to small and crossover at 80 Hz. This sub truly deserves all of the praise it is receiving so believe what you read. Just if you decide to get it make sure you have the correct placement because it makes the world of difference. Follow JL set up advice and place the sub in the front of the room. You will have no regrets with this sub as it integrates perfect and elevates the music (and home theater) to a new level.

[KEF]

Just curious, are you guys using these with 2 Channel Music as well as HT, or for HT only?

Regards,
KEF

[Amarkus1]

2 Channel music. I don't listen to multi channel music and not that much HT. On my Krell I used to use only pre-amp bypass which did not send a signal to the sub. I was very pro running it this way as it bypassed all pre-amp electronics and sounded cleaner than running in stereo mode. But when I got this sub and played with different configurations my beliefs had changed. I am now running only in stereo mode so that the sub will play along.

[KEF]

2 Channel music. I don't listen to multi channel music and not that much HT. On my Krell I used to use only pre-amp bypass which did not send a signal to the sub. I was very pro running it this way as it bypassed all pre-amp electronics and sounded cleaner than running in stereo mode. But when I got this sub and played with different configurations my beliefs had changed. I am now running only in stereo mode so that the sub will play along.

It is interesting, and the reason I ask is that I have yet to feel that these speaker needed a sub. For that matter, I never used a sub with my 803Ss either -

It just surprised me to see so many people discussing these speaker and a sub for 2 Channel, HT is a different story of course -

Cheers,
Keith

[Amarkus1]

I understand what you are saying and used to agree. I was never a bass head and also felt never needed a sub for these speakers. But now I can't believe what I was missing. It's hard to explain but now my music just sounds so much richer. It's not like any other sub I have used as does not add a boom boom boom! It just completes the bass in a bold yet tight way. You kind need to listen to one to understand what I am trying to explain.

[Kal Rubinson]

Just curious, are you guys using these with 2 Channel Music as well as HT, or for HT only? Regards, KEF

Both.

[skuzzyb]

Considering the 802D plays down to 34Hz, and provides a very fast, articulate bass, it will be an interesting study. I was really looking at it more for HT and not necessarily 2 channel, although after listening to the Wilson Benesch Torus it has altered my perception of subs in a two channel configuration.

Amarkus, thank you for the feedback. It will be worth listening to, although I suspect at the moment they only make it in 110/120V 60Hz so it would be of no use to me here without a step up transformer which I try to avoid at all cost.

[Edwin]

Amarkus, thank you for the feedback. It will be worth listening to, although I suspect at the moment they only make it in 110/120V 60Hz so it would be of no use to me here without a step up transformer which I try to avoid at all cost.

JL Audio have stated that they plan on releasing a 230v version at the end of this year - at which time I'll certainly be considering purchasing one or two. People who have listened to the F113 are raving about these comparatively small subs which match or even beat the DD18 for output and are apparently one of the most "musical" subs money can buy.

[bigburner]

It just surprised me to see so many people discussing these speaker and a sub for 2 Channel

A sub is essential for 2-channel music if you want your hi-fi system to approximate the sound that you hear at a concert. As Amarkus1 points out, you really FEEL the kick drum and the bass guitar at a concert.

I agree with Amarkus1 about setting the sub's crossover at 80Hz. The thump of a kick drum is in the 60Hz to 100Hz range. The lowest note you will hear on a 4-string bass guitar is 41Hz. Therefore if you are one of those people who sets their sub's crossover at 45Hz you will hear nothing of the kick drum and very little of the bass guitar through your sub. A lifeless kick drum degrades the energy level of most modern music genres. That doesn't make sense when you have a sub sitting in your room that can increase the energy level.

I also agree that positioning the sub in front produces the best results. I have mine dead centre between my floorstanders. If the volume of the sub is turned up a bit to produce the feel of a concert the kick drum appears to be in the middle of the stage when sitting in the sweet spot.

Nigel.

[KEF]

A sub is essential for 2-channel music if you want your hi-fi system to approximate the sound that you hear at a concert. As Amarkus1 points out, you really FEEL the kick drum and the bass guitar at a concert.

I agree with Amarkus1 about setting the sub's crossover at 80Hz. The thump of a kick drum is in the 60Hz to 100Hz range. The lowest note you will hear on a 4-string bass guitar is 41Hz. Therefore if you are one of those people who sets their sub's crossover at 45Hz you will hear nothing of the kick drum and very little of the bass guitar through your sub. A lifeless kick drum degrades the energy level of most modern music genres. That doesn't make sense when you have a sub sitting in your room that can increase the energy level.

I also agree that positioning the sub in front produces the best results. I have mine dead centre between my floorstanders. If the volume of the sub is turned up a bit to produce the feel of a concert the kick drum appears to be in the middle of the stage when sitting in the sweet spot.

Nigel.

Nigel,

Is your system as described in your profile?

Regards,
Keith

[Kal Rubinson]

I agree with Amarkus1 about setting the sub's crossover at 80Hz. The thump of a kick drum is in the 60Hz to 100Hz range. The lowest note you will hear on a 4-string bass guitar is 41Hz. Therefore if you are one of those people who sets their sub's crossover at 45Hz you will hear nothing of the kick drum and very little of the bass guitar through your sub. A lifeless kick drum degrades the energy level of most modern music genres. That doesn't make sense when you have a sub sitting in your room that can increase the energy level.

Right in many instances but it does depend on the configuration of the speakers and crossover for phase/slope in addition to frequency. With the bass management provided by most AVRs, it's a crap-shoot.

Kal

[dmccombs]

Kal,

I have been playing with this same questions lately with my 803s speaker. I have a Denon 3806 that I am using as a prepro, and I have an SMS-1 EQ. My sus is an SVS 20-39pci.

I have set the crossover at 80hz, have played with speaker and sub placement, got the SMS-1 to give a flat respsonce from 18-90hz, and it never sounds as good as just the 803s by themsleves.

The odd part is that when I look at the 18-90hz response with just the 803s, I have a big dip ~50 hz that is fairly wide. Going by the SMS-1 charts the, 803s/Sub combo should sound way better. The 803s/sub combo sounds flat and thin in comparision to the 803s alone though.

I just purchased a Halcro SSP-100 to replace the Denon 3806, so I will revisit this issue after the prepro upgrade.

Regards,
Darrell

[Kal Rubinson]

I hate to say this but it is entirely possible that you simply prefer the sound that does not measure well. Many of us do under many different conditions.

I prefer to choose my crossover based on the response of the main system measured full-range and I would take advantage of the 803s' 50Hz dip by rolling it off from there. Then, I would experiment with the LP filter to get a complimentary response by varying frequency, phase/order and polarity. My experience with AVRs and pre/pros is limited but I've yet to find one that is as flexible in that way as I would like.

Kal

[RebelMan]

A sub is essential for 2-channel music if you want your hi-fi system to approximate the sound that you hear at a concert.

bigburner, can you describe your speaker configuration with respect to your listening position and the dB levels you listen to on average and when you want to "feel" the music?

What concert genre's do you get the feeling from to that which you are comparing your reproduction to? Most of the concerts that I have been too use horn loaded speaker systems and are driven to insanely high volumes to get the feeling of the kick drum and bass guitar that you described. I don't believe any of these forums use subwoofers in their performances.

Your CDM9NT is a fine transducer but do you think subwoofers are essential regardless of the main drivers? In other words, if you owned a pair of speakers that could deliver the punch you are looking for would you still use a sub? A pair of 800D has the potential to deliver concert level guitar bass and kick drums but only when they are opened up to uncomfortably high SPLs, will you feel it. The use of a sub at lower volumes might help but then that is not what most concerts sound like, right?

BTW, I also use my sub in the same fashion as you do but mostly for domestic reasons and its where I get the best response for home cinema given the conditions of my room which are not exactly ideal. Having owned smaller speaker systems and comparing those to larger ones I don't find a subwoofer to be "essential" for every two-channel music situation. In most cases it is detrimental.

[dmccombs]

Kal,

I actually tried all the things you suggested here included dropping the crossover point to just above the dip. In short, with my current prepro and room, the bass sounds fuller and smoother when I run the speakers as full range with no sub.

I hope to have the new Prepro in place in a couple days, so then I will know if it is some odd thing with how Denon does thier crossover/BM, or something odd with my room.

Thanks,
Darrell

I hate to say this but it is entirely possible that you simply prefer the sound that does not measure well. Many of us do under many different conditions.

I prefer to choose my crossover based on the response of the main system measured full-range and I would take advantage of the 803s' 50Hz dip by rolling it off from there. Then, I would experiment with the LP filter to get a complimentary response by varying frequency, phase/order and polarity. My experience with AVRs and pre/pros is limited but I've yet to find one that is as flexible in that way as I would like.

Kal

[Kal Rubinson]

I actually tried all the things you suggested here included dropping the crossover point to just above the dip. In short, with my current prepro and room, the bass sounds fuller and smoother when I run the speakers as full range with no sub.

While your 3806 has many crossover frequency settings, I do not see anything for slope or phase, both of which are important variables.

Kal

[dmccombs]

Kal,

What crossover frequency did you settle on with your 802D/Sub setup?

Thanks,
Darrell

[Kal Rubinson]

Still fooling with it. The default was 80Hz because that was all the player had but I am now trying other settings as I gain that facility.

Kal

[dmccombs]

Are there any other subs you would recommend for the 802D speakers?

Perhaps a Velodyne DD-12?

Is anything in the SVS line good enough?

[skuzzyb]

a different question

I think it is fair to say that the JL Audio sub is good, could even be great, but how does it compare to the B&W ASW855.

[Minardi2]

I think it is fair to say that the JL Audio sub is good, could even be great, but how does it compare to the B&W ASW855.

First post on the board here - - hope it's helpful.

I just got done doing an extensive sub in-home demo, and spent time comparing the 855 to the JL f113 and f112 (among others). The big B&W was excellent for music, but just couldn't keep up with the f113 in terms of usable output, slam, and immediacy for home theater usage, which is what I was mainly looking for. Were I looking for a sub to couple with my N802s though, the 855 would be it.

I put a write up together at avsforum. If anyone's interested let me know and I'll post a link.

[bigburner]

Nigel,

Is your system as described in your profile?

Regards,
Keith

Hi Keith,

Yes it is, and apologies for taking a month to reply!

Nigel.

[bigburner]

bigburner, can you describe your speaker configuration with respect to your listening position and the dB levels you listen to on average and when you want to "feel" the music?

What concert genre's do you get the feeling from to that which you are comparing your reproduction to? Most of the concerts that I have been too use horn loaded speaker systems and are driven to insanely high volumes to get the feeling of the kick drum and bass guitar that you described. I don't believe any of these forums use subwoofers in their performances.

Your CDM9NT is a fine transducer but do you think subwoofers are essential regardless of the main drivers? In other words, if you owned a pair of speakers that could deliver the punch you are looking for would you still use a sub? A pair of 800D has the potential to deliver concert level guitar bass and kick drums but only when they are opened up to uncomfortably high SPLs, will you feel it. The use of a sub at lower volumes might help but then that is not what most concerts sound like, right?

BTW, I also use my sub in the same fashion as you do but mostly for domestic reasons and its where I get the best response for home cinema given the conditions of my room which are not exactly ideal. Having owned smaller speaker systems and comparing those to larger ones I don't find a subwoofer to be "essential" for every two-channel music situation. In most cases it is detrimental.

Hi RebelMan,

Sorry it's taken so long to reply! I went to Australia at Easter and I must have lost track of things...

My floorstanders and listening position are an equilateral triangle. Each side of the triangle is about 10 feet long (3 metres). My sub is equidistant between the floorstanders and is also about 10 feet from the listening position (because the floorstanders are pushed forward a bit).

I don't know the dB levels that I listen to on average. I keep meaning to buy an SPL meter because that's an interesting question. These days I'm quite sensible about volume because music is my passion and I can't afford to damage my hearing any more than it is now, which actually isn't too bad compared to some of my friends of a similar age (53).

The concert genres that I listen to include electric blues, acoustic blues, bluegrass, alt country, rhythm & blues, pop and rock.

I heard most of these genres at the Byron Bay Music Festival over Easter. I went to the festival on three consecutive days from about 2pm - 11pm. Each act lasted about one hour, so I got to hear lots of different music. The sound system was fantastic, in fact the best I've ever heard in a concert setting, and was played at a sensible volume all the time. By sensible I mean that I never experienced any discomfort. That's how I listen at home, although I've noticed that excess alcohol does encourage excess volume!

The bass performance of the Byron Bay music system was outstanding - tight, clean and clear. Many bass players these days opt to use a 5-string guitar so there were plenty of sub-40 Hz notes to test the system. A number of acts also featured a bass solo, for example Victor Wooten from Béla Fleck and the Flecktones who played an absolutely stunning solo on his 5-string electric bass. The sound system handled it beautifully.

Across all music genres these days the trend is to emphasise the bass more than used to be the case, so this is an important aspect of the modern listening experience. I have no objection to this as I love bass. This trend also applies to other instruments, in particular keyboards which used to be way down in the mix. I like the new order where every musician is a virtuoso and has his/her chance to shine. Anyway, I'm off topic...

If home audio systems are to begin matching the performance of sound systems like Byron Bay then a subwoofer is a key component. Unless of course you're lucky enough to own a pair of 800D speakers. I don't know what I'd do regarding a sub if I owned a pair of those. I'd like to have the choice! Basically my setup is a poor man's 800D. However it's good enough that I rarely find myself wishing that I had something better.

There is one aspect of having a sub that I think is important. When I watch a music DVD I'm mimicking the concert environment. In this situation I turn the volume of my sub up more than I would if listening to a studio recording. I couldn't do that with floorstanders only. Given that live music DVDs are my particular interest I suspect that I'll always have a sub.

Great question RebelMan. You got me raving.

Nigel.