Improving 2 channel sound for my 804S speakers

[SPACEMANRICK]

Any suggestions for improving the sound of my 2 channel stereo system? I have 2 804S speakers and I am running these through my Denon 3805 AV receiver and a Denon DCM 380 CD player. I just bought the rug and it has helped with adding to the punch of the bass and reducing the harshness of the highs. The rear wall is 164 inches wide and I have each speaker 73 inches away from the rear wall and each speaker 45 inches from the side wall. I also have each speaker toed in very slightly towards the listener. The ceiling in the room is 16 feet high.

Any suggestions for room treatments or placement of my speakers within reason would be greatly appreciated. I think I would still like to have more body and punch to my bass. The highs and midranges are sounding very clear and clean. I may consider upgarding the electronics in the future but for now my budget is limited for those upgrades.

The cat is a camera hog and wouldn't get out of the picture

[Kal Rubinson]

Bass trapping in the corners.

Kal

[Iggurk]

Hello!

Good room treatment isn't cheap, perhaps even more expensive than your electronics.
To see if that can improve, you can move your bed mattress in the living room, that's an easy test.

I suggest:

- Ceraball under all your electronics, that improve sound, and last forever.
- Moving back speakers out of the carpet and use good spikes too
Superspikes are ok, easy to move and won't damage your floor and are not too expensive for the result.
- Ensure you have good power. Build DIY power cables, install power conditioner, etc... that make big difference in sound quality.
- Try different brands of cables manufacturer, sure you can borrow some to you friends (MP me for more recommendations)
- A much better furniture for your electronics will also be a good spend, stacking electronics it's not something I like. You can try to place a granite plate (buy cheap and heavy one for test) below with decoupling pad like stabren mesure between plate and furniture, and Ceraball between plate and electronics.

But if you really want to improve sound you won't escape buying much better electronics, especially an amplifier, Denon is poor amplifier, but quite good pre-amp.
Try to listen to a Rotel 1090, it can be found 2nd hand, and I personally like the result with 804.
Your CD player is also far from perfect, try also to listen to Marantz CD/SACD player.
804 are real good speakers, that will be the last thing to change in your system.

Regards
Yves

[nicky]

It seems that your not happy with the bass production of your speakers, although your happy with the highs and mids.

I used to believe that a subwoofer was just for home theater (ie movies) and that for real 2 channel sound music listening all you needed was a good pair of 2 front speakers like the ones you have.

But after many years of listening experience and research of my own, in my opinion a subwoofer is a must and greatly improves the sound of any 2 channel system. I personally have the 703s and listen to lots and lots of cds (2 channel music) and I'm constantly amazed at how much better it sounds with the very tight bass production and just overall natural improvement in sound with my subwoofer (ASW750).

[dknightd]

Bass traps and speaker location in room are key (assuming your amp cam deliver the current the 804s want - not sure about your amp).

The first think to play with would be speaker position. You might actually prefer them closer to the corner than you have them now.
Room treatment does not have to be expensive. You can buy semi-rigid insulation (either fiberglass or mineral wool) and cover it with the fabric of your choosing. Placing thick absorbers in as many corners as possible can have a huge benifit to your bass response. I have about $400 in my room treatments, and it made a huge difference. (more than one person has looked for the subwoofer, which does not exist - yet)

[pbarach]

But after many years of listening experience and research of my own, in my opinion a subwoofer is a must and greatly improves the sound of any 2 channel system.

I have 704's in my 2-channel system, which are -3dB at 40 Hz (yours are -3 dB at 38 Hz), and adding a sub made a huge difference in the quality of the bass from my speakers. It's punchier but tight, and that -3dB point is now much lower than it was with my 704's. In addition, much less power is required from my amp because the sub's amp is doing most of the heavy lifting. If you add a sub, you'd want a sub that sounds well with music (some subs are OK with home theater but lack the control needed for music). I'm sure that bass traps in the corners would tighten the bass, whether or not you add a sub.

[NMG]

in my opinion a subwoofer is a must and greatly improves the sound of any 2 channel system.

I agree with this statement :T

[Kal Rubinson]

Hello!

Good room treatment isn't cheap, perhaps even more expensive than your electronics.
To see if that can improve, you can move your bed mattress in the living room, that's an easy test.

I suggest:

- Ceraball under all your electronics, that improve sound, and last forever.
- Moving back speakers out of the carpet and use good spikes too
Superspikes are ok, easy to move and won't damage your floor and are not too expensive for the result.
- Ensure you have good power. Build DIY power cables, install power conditioner, etc... that make big difference in sound quality.
- Try different brands of cables manufacturer, sure you can borrow some to you friends (MP me for more recommendations)
- A much better furniture for your electronics will also be a good spend, stacking electronics it's not something I like. You can try to place a granite plate (buy cheap and heavy one for test) below with decoupling pad like stabren mesure between plate and furniture, and Ceraball between plate and electronics.

But if you really want to improve sound you won't escape buying much better electronics, especially an amplifier, Denon is poor amplifier, but quite good pre-amp.
Try to listen to a Rotel 1090, it can be found 2nd hand, and I personally like the result with 804.
Your CD player is also far from perfect, try also to listen to Marantz CD/SACD player.
804 are real good speakers, that will be the last thing to change in your system.

Regards
Yves

If I may: None of that will make as certain and substantial an improvement as acoustical treatment of the room. The OP's experience with the addition of the carpet confirms this and points in the correct direction. The cheapest, easiest experiment is to buy a bale or two of fibreglass at HomeDepot/Lowes and, without opening the plastic wrap that holds it together, place a bale in each of the front room corners. Live with them for a couple of weeks and then toss them. Then, make your own decision.

Kal

Kal

[Iggurk]

If I may: None of that will make as certain and substantial an improvement as acoustical treatment of the room. The OP's experience with the addition of the carpet confirms this and points in the correct direction. The cheapest, easiest experiment is to buy a bale or two of fibreglass at HomeDepot/Lowes and, without opening the plastic wrap that holds it together, place a bale in each of the front room corners. Live with them for a couple of weeks and then toss them. Then, make your own decision.

Kal

If you want something bad for your health and ugly definitely go for that solution.

If you want something professional that's safe (health, fire,...) and not ugly that as a cost.

Auralex as very good products, just give them a look.

I've obtain better bass improvement results with the recommendations I made than with any room treatment, and that as cost me lot less.

[pbarach]

I've obtain better bass improvement results with the recommendations I made than with any room treatment, and that as cost me lot less.

I have to agree with Kal concerning acoustic treatments, because poor room acoustics will make it difficult or impossible to hear any of the subtle (or perhaps imaginary :P ) improvements caused by changes such as power cables and putting granite slabs under components.

[sikoniko]

If you want something bad for your health and ugly definitely go for that solution.

If you want something professional that's safe (health, fire,...) and not ugly that as a cost.

Auralex as very good products, just give them a look.

I've obtain better bass improvement results with the recommendations I made than with any room treatment, and that as cost me lot less.

not to jump on you, but I think Kal's suggestion was for a short period and at a low cost to see if it made any difference. Once the relization was made, then you can choose the more appealing solutions, such as auralex and some of the other brands.

[RobP]

I agree with Kal, try the fiberglass for a bit, if you dont like the results you can take them back and return them very easily, whereas with buying Aurelex bass traps (which are very limited in what they can do) You will have a harder time returning them if you dont like them.

[Kal Rubinson]

If you want something bad for your health and ugly definitely go for that solution.

Not if done with intelligence and care.

If you want something professional that's safe (health, fire,...) and not ugly that as a cost.

Auralex as very good products, just give them a look.

Foam is MUCH less effective than fiberglass or mineral wool.

I've obtain better bass improvement results with the recommendations I made than with any room treatment, and that as cost me lot less.

If you say so. Of course, there's lots of subjective and objective data to prove the effectiveness of good acoustic treatment. :W

Kal

[r100gs]

Get another cat and have them sit behind the speakers. Cat traps I think you call them. :W

[nicky]

In my opinion, I think that it is important to note (again from my own experience) that yes good treatment with acoustic panels will improve the overall sound, sometimes very dramatically depending on how bad your room was.

BUT....acoustic panels, although they may greatly improve and define the sound like the bass in your case, it will not "ADD" some kind of magical performance to your speakers then they are capable of. All they will do is maximize the way the speakers were meant to be heard.

So if you listened to your speakers at a dealer where they are usually in acoustic treated rooms and love the sound (ie bass quality) but it sounds different in your home, then acoustic treatment will greatly help you in achieving that perfect sound you heard at the dealer before you bought them. But if you weren't happy with the bass production before at the dealer, then you're going to need to add a subwoofer. (Type of speaker wire, power conditioner, etc, etc will not give improvements like acoustic treatment or any type of signficant performance improvement for that matter that he wants..ie bass...again in my opinion).

And don't sell your equipment short (Denon 3805 AV receiver and a Denon DCM 380 CD player). There are of course better (ie more expensive options), but what you have are no slouch either.

[dknightd]

I'll take $400 of proper room treatment over $1200 of cables, fancy feet, what have you, every time. A dollar spent on room treatments will almost always get you more bang for the buck. It might take a little more time to do it properly, and will not be as sexy, or as easy, but the results are worth it to some people . . . If you'd rather spend your money on equipment racks, fancy feet, fancy cables, that is fine with me. If I had money to waste I might do the same. Spending any money is premature until you have experimented (and preferably measured) the effects of changing speaker and listener position in the room.

Kal's suggestion to try rolled up insulation is a good one. You can cover it if you like. Try it for a week. If you don't like it return it, or better, spread it out in your attic. Almost all houses need more insulation . . .

[Kal Rubinson]

In my opinion, I think that it is important to note (again from my own experience) that yes good treatment with acoustic panels will improve the overall sound, sometimes very dramatically depending on how bad your room was.

BUT....acoustic panels, although they may greatly improve and define the sound like the bass in your case, it will not "ADD" some kind of magical performance to your speakers then they are capable of. All they will do is maximize the way the speakers were meant to be heard.

All this is perfectly true. However, it is important to note that magic is greatly overrated. :roll: All you can do is optimize the performance of the equipment you have and/or replace the equipment with something that suits you more.

Kal

[audioqueso]

Move the sofa chair on the side further away from the speakers.
Remove the coffee table.
Soundstage will improve.

[SPACEMANRICK]

Thanks so much everyone for all of the great responses. As the music room is also our family room, any changes I make are unfortunately limited by the impact on the aesthetics of the room. My wife has given me some dicretion on how the stereo is set up but moving the coffee table and the side chair are probably not an option.

The bass traps in the corners sound like an interesting option and I will have to explore finding some that will be acceptable in regards to price and aesthetics. The Home Depot insulation idea is a clever way of trying this out for free (or maybe I could put 2 beanbag chairs in the corners???). Would it be necessary to have a base trap in each of the 4 corners of the room or are they most important in the 2 front corners of the room? The rear walls are about 5 feet behind where I am sitting on the sofa.

A subwoofer may be the easiest (and not change the appearance of the room) solution because I could conceivably place it behind my stereo stand in the front of the room (I could move out the stand and have easily 12" to 16" behind there freed up for this). I could also maybe borrow a subwoofer from a friend to try it out to see how it improves the sound of the bass. Are there any subwoofer recommendations that are good for 2 channel music and that would cost approximately $1,000 Canadian or less?

Thanks so much for all the imput you guys have offered, I truly appreciate all your opinions on this :T

[Briz vegas]

I'll have a bash at this one as I have spent a fortune going down the electronics upgrade path and I am yet to indulge in room treatment (I am in the financial recovery stage - I may have gone a CD player too far for the old bank balance)

If it is just bass that is your issue then definitely check out the room treatments to even out the performance. Do you hear variation in the bass as you move around the room?. Bass in my room has a number of obvious hot spots in corners and other odd places which indicates to me that I need to do something to even out the response of my system. I will say though that despite the lack of wall shaking bass (in the listening position) I am actually pretty happy with the sound - I would call my bass quite adequate and fairly tight.

Adding a sub before you deal with the room may not help - as the bass may be swallowed up by the same uneven room response - also real subs work generally below say 40 hz, they fill in below your speakers response - if your hole is at 60hz then the sub will not help that problem. Have you tried measuring the frequency response of the system with a noise meter and test CD - it may help to quantify what you are missing out on (or if you are just a bass head)

I will say the following from personal experience
- Rel subs are good for two channel - I use one with my 804s and it does improve the sound, even if it is just vocals.
- cables will help bass if your current cables are not letting it through
- getting the right CD player can help bass - not all players are created equal

I read again and again from people that subs are bad for 2 channel, cables and CD players all sound the same etc etc. I have tried the above for a few weeks then went back to my old setup for comparison and it sounded pretty ordinary going back to the old gear each time (this applied to no sub, DVD player, old cables- each one tested in isolation from other changes).

I suspect I will feel the same way when I treat my room and will wish I had done it earlier, although only time will tell.

[dmccombs]

I have the 804s and a Denon 3806, which is almost idenitcal to your 3805 and I have wrestled with some of the same questions you have. Here are my findings.

Speaker placement and listening position are key. It sounds like your speaker placement is good. I would make sure your listening position is about 62% into the room (i.e. room is 20' long, put listening position 12.5' from front wall). Try this as a starting point if you can.

Room treatments do wonders. I would start with a bass trap in the 2 front coners and 2 more panels for 1st reflection on the side walls. You can do this for under $400.

If you get a sub, and cross over at ~80hz, this will give the 804s a little more headroom, and add some deep bass which the 804s are good, but not great at.

The 804s really like 200wpc, which the 3805 is not giving. If you can get a decent quality 200wpc amp, the 804s will really open up. I bought a used Krell, but Bryston, Rotel and many others make good amps. Try the sub 1st though, and you may not need the amp.

Regards,
Darrell

[Kal Rubinson]

Thanks so much everyone for all of the great responses. As the music room is also our family room, any changes I make are unfortunately limited by the impact on the aesthetics of the room. My wife has given me some dicretion on how the stereo is set up but moving the coffee table and the side chair are probably not an option.

Most of us have similar constraints.

The bass traps in the corners sound like an interesting option and I will have to explore finding some that will be acceptable in regards to price and aesthetics. The Home Depot insulation idea is a clever way of trying this out for free (or maybe I could put 2 beanbag chairs in the corners???). Would it be necessary to have a base trap in each of the 4 corners of the room or are they most important in the 2 front corners of the room? The rear walls are about 5 feet behind where I am sitting on the sofa.

The more, the merrier. However, I would start with the HD bags in two corners and, if that pleases, get more esthetically acceptable traps to replace them. Then, continue the experiment by using the HD bags to supplement your new traps so you can determine if you want/need/can accommodate more. BTW, the bean bag chairs are not the equivalent due to their covering and their stuffing.

A subwoofer may be the easiest (and not change the appearance of the room) solution because I could conceivably place it behind my stereo stand in the front of the room (I could move out the stand and have easily 12" to 16" behind there freed up for this). I could also maybe borrow a subwoofer from a friend to try it out to see how it improves the sound of the bass. Are there any subwoofer recommendations that are good for 2 channel music and that would cost approximately $1,000 Canadian or less?

I cannot recommend a specific sub but it is worth a try. Remember, however, that the sub is even more sensitive to the room modes. It's not a slam dunk.

Kal

[Mark_C.]

I bought a used Rel Storm III a few years ago to match with my Nautilus 804s on the advice of my B&W dealer (who doesn't sell Rel). The Storm is the Rel sub best matched to the 804s. It was a great move, as it brought much more low-end detail to my two-channel system. I did an in-home comparison between my N804 + Rel Storm vs. N803s and my system outperformed the N803s.

[SPACEMANRICK]

Just an update guys..............I may be able to get my hand on a used JBL L8400P subwoofer for a great price. Do you think that this would match well with my B&W 804S 2 channel stereo system? I know it has been suggested that I work on some room treatments, unfortuntately my wife would not go for these in our living room. As usual, all your input is sincerely appreciated

http://www.avrev.com/equip/JBL_Studio_L_Series/

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/407281-REG/JBL_L8400P_L8400P_Studio_L_Series.html

[Briz vegas]

Lets do the time warp again

Wow this one is back from the dead.

My Rel sub is retired to HT only duty - it was mucking up my 2 channel sound. I've heard the Rel B1 augmenting a 2 channel system and I preferred the system without it.

What do you want from your bass? 804 can deliver some pretty tasty fast and tight bass. I am not going to pretend it can sound like a 803D but I have at least one hifi friend that thinks I have bass to burn. He has Altecs with 15inch drivers hooked up to tubes (which reduces his bass somewhat but they still sound stunning -his system is lovingly tweeked to within an inch of its life and you can hear it in every note).

Given your constraints I would suggest trying a ................does Cat sell power cables, I was about to mention another brand. I'm a recent convert to wires and purchased a expensive brand of power cable for my power amp only last week. Plugged directly into the wall socket (no power boards) and with the right speaker cable it turned ok modest bass into very nice bass. Of course your room acoustics or your power amp may stop you from realising this improvement but if you can borrow a good power cord (go crazy) I would try that first. If it does nothing then nothing is lost if you return it.

inexpensive subs are a third rate solution for a speaker like the 804s.

[Mark-n-b]

Could you not borrow a decent power amp from someone/somewhere to see if this improves the bass? I am not knocking the Denon, but a separate power amp may give you the bass that you are searching for.

Also, if you are using the Denon in stereo, why not try bi-amping the 804's by utilising some of the idle amps in the receiver?

Briz vegas,
Being an engineer, I have never been able to "visualise" the improvement that power leads are reported to create, since I would have thought that you are going to get a quality of power as good as the weakest link in the circuit - taking into account the cables getting to your house, the cables in the walls, the power breakers and the cable inside the components themselves.

If you place very good cables in only part of the circuit somewhere, how does that improve things? And if power leads are so bad, why not just use the same copper cable that is inside the walls and wire it directly to the consumer unit?

I'm not saying that it does not work, because it clearly does, but I was just wondering how it works.

[sikoniko]

Last thursday on my way home from work I stopped by a local A/V shop and am doing a home demo of their corner bass traps. I really had no idea what to expect. My 2 channel consists of a pair of N802's, Classe 3200, Classe SSP-600, and Classe CDP-100. It has been bothering me that I felt I should be getting more depth from my sound...

I have 8ft ceilings. The bass traps I am borrowing are 7ft tall and are corner pieces. They cover the upper L/R corners and taper to a point at the bottom.

I must say that after installing them, I have noticed even greater dynamics, depth dimensional response from the speakers. I would go as far as to say it was like doing a speaker or amp upgrade. It really made that much of a difference. Next year I'm going to buy some diffusion panels for the back wall and ceiling, as I have read that you get substantial benefits from that as well.

[NonSense]

Briz vegas,
Being an engineer, I have never been able to "visualise" the improvement that power leads are reported to create, since I would have thought that you are going to get a quality of power as good as the weakest link in the circuit - taking into account the cables getting to your house, the cables in the walls, the power breakers and the cable inside the components themselves.

If you place very good cables in only part of the circuit somewhere, how does that improve things? And if power leads are so bad, why not just use the same copper cable that is inside the walls and wire it directly to the consumer unit?

I'm not saying that it does not work, because it clearly does, but I was just wondering how it works.

Mark

When I wired my home theater a few years back, I ran three dedicated 12AWG/15Amp circuits, terminated with Hubbel Hospital grade outlets to my component rack. All the component stock power cords were 6 foot, 18AWG. I opted to replace these stock cords with 10" DIY, 12AWG power cabes. I'm sure these were the weakest link. Not to mention the massive reduction in bundled cables.

I probably could have used in-wall 12AWG cable for the same effect, but the more flexable stranded DIY cable provided a better finish. I was also impressed with the way the Hubbel socket provides a very tight contact. When trying to remove a plug from the socket, it feels like the socket might actually get ripped from the wall. This was a nice compromise as I wasn't quite prepared to wire my amps directly to a breaker just yet!

[RobP]

Just an update guys..............I may be able to get my hand on a used JBL L8400P subwoofer for a great price. Do you think that this would match well with my B&W 804S 2 channel stereo system? I know it has been suggested that I work on some room treatments, unfortuntately my wife would not go for these in our living room. As usual, all your input is sincerely appreciated

IMO, that subwoofer is not up to the level that your 804's and you may be let down with its performance, in your situation you may consider a sub such as Velodyne that has an corrective room EQ since room treatments are not an option for you.

[Mark-n-b]

Mark

When I wired my home theater a few years back, I ran three dedicated 12AWG/15Amp circuits, terminated with Hubbel Hospital grade outlets to my component rack. All the component stock power cords were 6 foot, 18AWG. I opted to replace these stock cords with 10" DIY, 12AWG power cabes. I'm sure these were the weakest link. Not to mention the massive reduction in bundled cables.

I probably could have used in-wall 12AWG cable for the same effect, but the more flexable stranded DIY cable provided a better finish. I was also impressed with the way the Hubbel socket provides a very tight contact. When trying to remove a plug from the socket, it feels like the socket might actually get ripped from the wall. This was a nice compromise as I wasn't quite prepared to wire my amps directly to a breaker just yet!

Yes, we are having an extension built soon, and the electronics are going to get their own ring main from the consumer unit, I have made sure of this.

Cheers

Mark

[george_k]

Just stumbled onto this thread:

I agree with Briz Vegas' post, adding a sub may not be a wise move just yet, you need to understand how your room is interacting with your equipment first.

As a first step go here and read up and download the test cd

http://www.realtraps.com/test-cd.htm

Then buy yourself one of these

http://www.radioshack.com/sm-digital-display-sound-level-meter--pi-2103667.html

Next take an hour or two out of your day and go through the exercise of plotting your room's response. This will give you a pictorial representation of the frequency trouble spots associated with your room, fixing the problem will be a lot easier once you know what the problem is.

For instance, if you end up with a fairly smooth response with the exception that the low frequency response rolls off a lot sooner than you'd like then adding another sub would seem like the appropriate fix.

If on the other hand you see a huge dips or peaks in your room response then you'll need to look into appropriate room treatments. I remember visiting a website that sold fancy looking (high wife approval) room treatments that looked more like art work than acoustic treatment, I just can't remember where.

Hope this helps

[PewterTA]

If you want to upgrade your 2-ch listening, get rid of the Denon. I just demoed a bunch of speakers on Denon equipment and they didn't hold a candle to the my Rotel gear. It even made the 805s sound WORSE than the 683s (683s on better equipment)... I would highly recommend changing the Denon equipment.

While Denon is good for HT, it's not so much with 2ch.

[Kal Rubinson]

Just stumbled onto this thread:

I agree with Briz Vegas' post, adding a sub may not be a wise move just yet, you need to understand how your room is interacting with your equipment first.

As a first step go here and read up and download the test cd

http://www.realtraps.com/test-cd.htm

Then buy yourself one of these

http://www.radioshack.com/sm-digital-display-sound-level-meter--pi-2103667.html

Next take an hour or two out of your day and go through the exercise of plotting your room's response. This will give you a pictorial representation of the frequency trouble spots associated with your room, fixing the problem will be a lot easier once you know what the problem is.

The next step is to download RoomEQWizard and see what the room is doing in the time domain. :W

Kal

[Poki]

George,

I had the same set up (804S + 3805) as you before I plunged into the audio abyss....

While there is no doubt you can improve your sound by investing in room treatment, I too suggest you holding off buying the sub until you get a 2-ch or multi-channel amplifier as stated.

I can summarize the effect this way: one day after I removed the “lowly” Rotel 1075 and just used the Denon as AV, my 12-year old (then) son asked me why the music sounded “funny”.

Enough said regarding importance of having (adequate) power driving the 804S.

[Briz vegas]

Briz vegas,
Being an engineer, I have never been able to "visualise" the improvement that power leads are reported to create, since I would have thought that you are going to get a quality of power as good as the weakest link in the circuit - taking into account the cables getting to your house, the cables in the walls, the power breakers and the cable inside the components themselves.

If you place very good cables in only part of the circuit somewhere, how does that improve things? And if power leads are so bad, why not just use the same copper cable that is inside the walls and wire it directly to the consumer unit?

I'm not saying that it does not work, because it clearly does, but I was just wondering how it works.

Yup, it would be interesting to know how it works. There is certainly correlation. Evidence of causation it purely circumstantial but the experiment was repeatable over 2 separate auditions and now in operation.

Cord in sound good.
Cord out sound no as good.

I love your second last statement "why not just use the same cable that is inside the walls". I recently received an email from an audiophile that did just that. Reckoned it was the best power cord he had heard, it was cheap, it sounded awesome......and its illegal in Australia. We use solid core cable to wire houses and power cords are required to be flexible to avoid failure.

I know I went with a very expensive solution but it works for me (and the guy who brought his identical cable around for a demo) so I am happy to recommend people try it as an option in their armoury of possible solutions.

In a way this hifi hobby is like fault diagnosis. Every setup is different because of all the factors at play (including your taste in music) so you need to be prepared to experiment to find the weakness (one or many) that is standing between you and the sound you want.

Right now I am just enjoying the music.

Also - re those SPL meters - they are not good at measuring bass so you need to correct for the error - there are some tables on the web that help. I compared mine to a $20k SPL meter and did a correction table but mine is a different model (and I am not sure where I put the correction table)

[SPACEMANRICK]

Thanks for all the input guys! Based on all the feedback I am considering upgrading my amp as a first step before buying a subwoofer or improving my cables. Would a good integrated amp be sufficient or do you recommend getting a separate power amp and a separate preamp? Is there any specific pieces of used equipment I should keep my eyes open for?

Please keep in mind I am on a tight budget and am looking at spending $1,000 to $2,000 on some used equipment for amplification.

[george_k]

For $1k - $2k used you should be able to get some very good equipment off audiogon

[SPACEMANRICK]

Well another possible chapter to the story............I have been keeping my eyes open in British Columbia for a used amplifier and possibly a subwoofer.

I talked to my dealer today and he said that they brought in some new extra B&W ASW CM subwoofers and are selling them for $800 Canadian. I am not sure if these have been discontinued but he said the regular retail price on these was $1699. I will go in later this week to give them a listen with the 804S speakers that they have in stock. I know they are not specifically matched to the 8 series speakers but I hope they will have that extra punch in the lows that my music seem to be lacking. I don't want a heavy deep bass but just a little more depth and punch in the drums and beat. Any thoughts on this cheap alternative to improving my sound?

Off topic, for all you music lovers I saw U2 LIVE at the IMAX on the weekend and was absolutely blown away. Fantastic sound system and fantastic show especially with the IMAX 3D glasses. This is by far the most impressive sounding concert movie I have ever seen! I wonder if Aldo's sound system sounds like the IMAX's ;x(

[cug]

I talked to my dealer today and he said that they brought in some new extra B&W ASW CM subwoofers and are selling them for $800 Canadian. I am not sure if these have been discontinued but he said the regular retail price on these was $1699. I will go in later this week to give them a listen with the 804S speakers that they have in stock. I know they are not specifically matched to the 8 series speakers but I hope they will have that extra punch in the lows that my music seem to be lacking. I don't want a heavy deep bass but just a little more depth and punch in the drums and beat. Any thoughts on this cheap alternative to improving my sound?

Regarding to music listening, only that:

10 reasons ...

I have only a little bit experience with subwoofers and I like them for HT but definitely not for stereo music.

[SPACEMANRICK]

Thanks for the interesting link Cug. I will have to reserve judgement until I give the speakers and subwoofer a listen at the dealer. By chance I also found a review of the 804S speaker tonight from Ecoustics that indicated a subwoofer might help enhance the bass from the speaker. As my budget is limited, I am just seeing where I can get the most bang for the buck..........

http://www.ecoustics.com/secrets/volume_14_3/b&w-804-speakers-7-2007.html

[cug]

I understand - I never felt any bass missing with the 804S. But that might be my room, my taste or the difference in music or so. Whatsoever - maybe you try listening to different electronics too. Right now, I have the Rotel RA-1062, which is an incredible value for the price (don't know the current Canadian price but I paid a bit over 800 CAD half a year ago).

[sikoniko]

have you considered buying sound anchor stands? They added a good bit of depth to my N804's and my current N802s.

[NonSense]

Spacemanrick

If you are still running your 804's on the Denon 3805 and are looking for 2CH improvment, I would definitely audition a good quality 2Ch amplifier or even better a good quality integrated with HT bypass. The Denon won't do the 804's justice with either sound quality or bass control either as receiver or pre.

I've been down that road, and back.


Else, if HT is your goal, then go for the sub.

[DL86]

Rotel rb-1072/1080 and RC-1082 pre amp :T

[Kal Rubinson]

Thanks for all the input guys! Based on all the feedback I am considering upgrading my amp as a first step before buying a subwoofer or improving my cables. Would a good integrated amp be sufficient or do you recommend getting a separate power amp and a separate preamp? Is there any specific pieces of used equipment I should keep my eyes open for?

Please keep in mind I am on a tight budget and am looking at spending $1,000 to $2,000 on some used equipment for amplification.

You are spinning your wheels. :Z

Kal