New 802D's Back Screw Qusetion

[Glenee]

I just got my new 802D'S. On the back of the speaker is a tension rod connected to the Kevlar midrange driver was a phillips head screw with a tag that says remove before use and to reinstall if transporting. Took phillips screw out removed round flat disk. Underneath was another recessed threaded large screw plate recessed into a larger carriage assembly. The B&W DVD and website shows a rod attached to the midrange driver and then to the screw plate on the back of the speaker. What if any torque settings is this set at . You can turn it with your finger. If there is a proper tension does it tighten from right or left rotation ?
Glenee

[Jesse111]

The latest info I got on this was, "turn right until snug, then turn back about a half turn". But I'd like to get some other posts on this first. Let's wait and watch for more input on this. My info goes back a few years.

[Glenee]

That would be smart. Depending on the thread rotation located in the Marlan head you could be turning right and loosening inside or vice versus if we go left. If we back off inside the Marlan head with all that angel foam they put in there. We will never get that rod started back without entire disassembly. Absolutley don't want to go the wrong way. Thanks Jesse
Glenee

[Jesse111]

If you stand behind the speaker and look directly at the screw, CLOCKWISE will tighten it. It works the same way as when you took of the protect cover holder. You took it off turning it counter clockwise. It is the same for the suspension unit.

[tboooe]

Wait, glenee, you can actaully turn the tensioning screw?? That is a serious problem. I would contact the dealer immediately. From everything I read there is a certain torque spec that the FST drivers have to be at though I also heard dealers do not even have torque wrenches....

[RobP]

The dealers are not provided with any tool to torque the screw nor are they given any spec at all. The torque spec is set at the factory for more of a quality control for transportation.
I have been back and forth with B&W and my dealer before on this issue.

You can read about the saga here.

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=17273&highlight=B%26W+tourque

[ChrisssB]

I think it can be done if the dealer has the proper tool to torque the screw. You could e-mail b&w and ask for the specs.

[Glenee]

Talked to B&W today seems they no longer have the gel pack on the FST midrange driver so the torque on the screw is not as important as it used to be. He also told me thay were using significant less threadlock on the threads at the dealers request. The dealers were complaining about how much force it took to get it broke loose after the threadlock had set up. He told me how to set the thread tension no big deal. So if you have a new set you had better check it after the removal of the shipping plate.
Glenee

[Andrew M Ward]

This issue (today) is as big as one chooses to make it... if you get my meaning. Today = no gel to worry about / Today = not much glue

Read in order:

A) Far less lock-tight is being used (by request)

B) So after shipping some units need a little tightening on closer inspection

C) Use a large headed screw-driver with soft cloth between screw head and driver head (Find and return to speaker, with items in hand)

D) Tighten until firm, then go 1/8 turn more (use judgment)

E) Done...


That's the issue....
Discuss until nauseous :W

[RebelMan]

Talked to B&W today seems they no longer have the gel pack on the FST midrange driver so the torque on the screw is not as important as it used to be.

The gel pack (seal) that sits between the FST driver and Marlan head or the gel pack that is sandwiched between the Marlan head and the 802D cabinet?

[Glenee]

It was my understanding that it was the gel pack in the Marlan head itself. Related to the FST Driver and the tension rod that runs thru the Marlan Head from Driver to the back of the cabinet. I was not trying to Bore you guys when I started this post was only concerned about my speakers. Forgive me Andrew.
Glenee

[RobP]

I was not trying to Bore you guys when I started this post was only concerned about my speakers. Forgive me Andrew.
Glenee

No need to feel that way Glenee, constructive support is a cornerstone of this forum and that will not change at all, no matter what one person may say.

[tboooe]

Is it just me that thinks this is a big deal? I mean for $12K speakers, I would expect much better build quality. I dont find the idea that less loctite is a valid excuse. Even though the fix is easy it does not hide the fact that this is a gross manufacturing oversight. It makes me wonder what other things in the speaker were poorly manufactured. I dont think any one of us would accept any loose screws in a new Mercedes, or Lexus, or BMW. Perhaps I expect too much but come on, at $12K, every customer deserves the best possible build quality...

[Andrew M Ward]

Is it just me that thinks this is a big deal? I mean for $12K speakers, I would expect much better build quality. I dont find the idea that less loctite is a valid excuse. Even though the fix is easy it does not hide the fact that this is a gross manufacturing oversight. It makes me wonder what other things in the speaker were poorly manufactured. I dont think any one of us would accept any loose screws in a new Mercedes, or Lexus, or BMW. Perhaps I expect too much but come on, at $12K, every customer deserves the best possible build quality...

I’m certainly not one to shy away from a good debate, and I don’t suffer fools gladly, so I’ll wade in here against my better judgment, as usual.

Let's break this down gentlemen:
One can make as big a deal out of this as one so chooses, there is no more or less to it than noted. So when you start by asking: "Is it just me who thinks this is a big deal" Answer: On an online forum "everything is a big deal"

then you say:
You would expect much higher build quality?
MUCH HIGHER? (wow)
This is about a three page response, (I’ll take a pass) to explain what goes into an 802D and if most people knew, as compared to parts costs from other speaker mfgs. nobody would ever buy a speaker from anybody else again.

Then you say:
you don’t find the idea that less lock-tight is a valid excuse.
The answer is, more lock-tight makes the screw difficult to remove (very difficult) so less lock-tight is being used... How is that confusing? No one is trying to "excuse anything" it's a reaction to a request...

Then you say:
Even though the fix is easy it does not hide the fact that this is a gross manufacturing oversight.
it's not an oversight, the goal was to make the assembly easy to remove, and now it is... When it ships across the sea and then on a truck some of the units have screw assemblies that are not very tight, so you just turn them, a 1/4 turn and never again should it cross your mind... unless you're on this forum... it’s that easy.

(This is my favorite part below)

Then you say:
It makes me wonder what other things in the speaker were poorly manufactured.

I wish you would completely diss-assemble a pair of 802D's - you would crap a Twinkie - they are built like nothing I've ever seen in the speaker industry at any price, frankly it's amazing...

Then you say:
I don’t think any one of us would accept any loose screws in a new Mercedes, or Lexus, or BMW.

Well, I owned a 2002 ML500 Mercedes... What a piece of sh##t, that dog went back to the shop monthly... almost every month, I’m not kidding. And do a quick little check on the M3 BMW service record... Not impressive... Not good examples in my opinion.

Then you say:
Perhaps I expect too much but come on, at $12K, every customer deserves the best possible build quality...

To that I say: B&W simply needs to tell their dealers to take their requests and ________ off, and then go back to using more lock-tight and the whole problem is solved... Just like that (magically) all these concerns would vanish and all will be wonderful again... 8)

if you saw how the assembly went together this whole episode would be a non-issue

[Indytown]

I’m certainly not one to shy away from a good debate, and I don’t suffer fools gladly, so I’ll wade in here against my better judgment, as usual.

Let's break this down gentlemen:
One can make as big a deal out of this as one so chooses, there is no more or less to it than noted. So when you start by asking: "Is it just me who thinks this is a big deal" Answer: On an online forum "everything is a big deal"

then you say:
You would expect much higher build quality?
MUCH HIGHER? (wow)
This is about a three page response, (I’ll take a pass) to explain what goes into an 802D and if most people knew, as compared to parts costs from other speaker mfgs. nobody would ever buy a speaker from anybody else again.

Then you say:
you don’t find the idea that less lock-tight is a valid excuse.
The answer is, more lock-tight makes the screw difficult to remove (very difficult) so less lock-tight is being used... How is that confusing? No one is trying to "excuse anything" it's a reaction to a request...

Then you say:
Even though the fix is easy it does not hide the fact that this is a gross manufacturing oversight.
it's not an oversight, the goal was to make the assembly easy to remove, and now it is... When it ships across the sea and then on a truck some of the units have screw assemblies that are not very tight, so you just turn them, a 1/4 turn and never again should it cross your mind... unless you're on this forum... it’s that easy.

(This is my favorite part below)

Then you say:
It makes me wonder what other things in the speaker were poorly manufactured.

I wish you would completely diss-assemble a pair of 802D's - you would crap a Twinkie - they are built like nothing I've ever seen in the speaker industry at any price, frankly it's amazing...

Then you say:
I don’t think any one of us would accept any loose screws in a new Mercedes, or Lexus, or BMW.

Well, I owned a 2002 ML500 Mercedes... What a piece of sh##t, that dog went back to the shop monthly... almost every month, I’m not kidding. And do a quick little check on the M3 BMW service record... Not impressive... Not good examples in my opinion.

Then you say:
Perhaps I expect too much but come on, at $12K, every customer deserves the best possible build quality...

To that I say: B&W simply needs to tell their dealers to take their requests and ________ off, and then go back to using more lock-tight and the whole problem is solved... Just like that (magically) all these concerns would vanish and all will be wonderful again... 8)

if you saw how the assembly went together this whole episode would be a non-issue

I have to agree with Andrew, you are making a big deal out of nothing.

If the Marlen head and tweeter head is not chipped, the drivers are not damaged (play the speaker to check this), what's the big deal.

The craftmanship on the BW is first class.

The nut is only holding the rod in place the keeps the kevlar driver in the head. There is one special purpose rubberized gasket in front on the driver which you see and a rubberized combo metal plug/washer the lines up the rod as it comes out the back of the head. As long as there is no air coming out of the front gasket when the speaker is on your good man.

As mentioned earlier by Jesse, finger tighten until you feel resistance, that's it. If you feel comfortable and your hand and fingers are long enough, you can gently put your fingers on the metal ring around the kevlar driver, push in very gently as to seat the driver in the head and finger tighen the nut until you feel resistance.

For the anal ones out there, if one could get someone to lay the speaker on its back to take the pressure off the rod and nut so the weight of the driver completes the seating of the driver - gravity doing more of the work than ones hand that would be ideal, but it really wouldn't make any difference.

Just some thoughts.

Regards,

Indy

[Jesse111]

I adjusted the screws today. It's actually a bit of a judgement call. When the instructions are to turn 1/4 and 1/8 turns after you feel it get tight, it may depend slightly on what is tight to one person may be not be quite as tight to another. Therefore, I firmly believe the adjustment is not super critical. I feel there is probably a good 1/4 turn range both ways that is acceptable.

I checked mine. I found both to be about a quarter turn away from what I felt was 1/8th of a turn past the first feeling of tightness. So I changed them from their original position. Did the sound change any? Not that I can tell. However, I feel more at one with my 800D ladies now. Therefore, I like listening to them even more. It's all about having fun and enjoying the hobby to me. For me a little reasonable tweaking here and there is just that, a bit of fun.

[PavelL]

MUCH HIGHER? (wow)
This is about a three page response, (I’ll take a pass) to explain what goes into an 802D and if most people knew, as compared to parts costs from other speaker mfgs. nobody would ever buy a speaker from anybody else again.

Agreed 100%. B&W products ARE reasonably priced /by high-end standards that is/!!! And the only reason I can think of is the fact that these are mass-produced speakers.

[tboooe]

I’m certainly not one to shy away from a good debate, and I don’t suffer fools gladly, so I’ll wade in here against my better judgment, as usual.

Let's break this down gentlemen:
One can make as big a deal out of this as one so chooses, there is no more or less to it than noted. So when you start by asking: "Is it just me who thinks this is a big deal" Answer: On an online forum "everything is a big deal"

then you say:
You would expect much higher build quality?
MUCH HIGHER? (wow)
This is about a three page response, (I’ll take a pass) to explain what goes into an 802D and if most people knew, as compared to parts costs from other speaker mfgs. nobody would ever buy a speaker from anybody else again.

Then you say:
you don’t find the idea that less lock-tight is a valid excuse.
The answer is, more lock-tight makes the screw difficult to remove (very difficult) so less lock-tight is being used... How is that confusing? No one is trying to "excuse anything" it's a reaction to a request...

Then you say:
Even though the fix is easy it does not hide the fact that this is a gross manufacturing oversight.
it's not an oversight, the goal was to make the assembly easy to remove, and now it is... When it ships across the sea and then on a truck some of the units have screw assemblies that are not very tight, so you just turn them, a 1/4 turn and never again should it cross your mind... unless you're on this forum... it’s that easy.

(This is my favorite part below)

Then you say:
It makes me wonder what other things in the speaker were poorly manufactured.

I wish you would completely diss-assemble a pair of 802D's - you would crap a Twinkie - they are built like nothing I've ever seen in the speaker industry at any price, frankly it's amazing...

Then you say:
I don’t think any one of us would accept any loose screws in a new Mercedes, or Lexus, or BMW.

Well, I owned a 2002 ML500 Mercedes... What a piece of sh##t, that dog went back to the shop monthly... almost every month, I’m not kidding. And do a quick little check on the M3 BMW service record... Not impressive... Not good examples in my opinion.

Then you say:
Perhaps I expect too much but come on, at $12K, every customer deserves the best possible build quality...

To that I say: B&W simply needs to tell their dealers to take their requests and ________ off, and then go back to using more lock-tight and the whole problem is solved... Just like that (magically) all these concerns would vanish and all will be wonderful again... 8)

if you saw how the assembly went together this whole episode would be a non-issue

Andrew, first of all thanks for pointing out the purpose of lock-tight (sic). I must have had it confused with Loctite, the most widely used brand of industrial adhesives.

Secondly, I am not confused about the purpose of Loctite and its effects on the screw. I am not a speaker designer but I was a manufacturing engineer in the semi-conductor industry for some time. If there was ever a change in a part or manufacturing process, engineering and manufacturing would have to get together to test and ensure that the change did not affect the product's reliability, performance, and build quality. Now I highly doubt that the assembly procedures is telling the technicians to install the screw loosely. If it is in the assembly procedures to tighten that screw to some torque or level of tightness, and it does not come delivered to the customer that way then there is a problem with build quaity. You state that shipping may have caused the screw to come loose. The BW engineers should have taken this into account when designing this, otherwise they are not very good. Believe me, I have been involved with manufacturing products for high tech and now life science for my entire career. When designing products, engineers have to take into account not only normal usage but some level of excessive usage. The products have be designed to work properly in both of these circumstances unless they are really sensitive measurement devices or the like.

Now we are not just talking about some insignificant screw. I would argue that the FST driver is BW's second most important technical marketing tool (the Diamond technology being the most important). If this is the kind of attention to detail that is paid to a very important aspect of the BW speaker then I am afraid to think how the other less obvious aspects of the speaker is built.

I am not disagreeing with people that this is not something easy to fix. The fact remains that this is not how the speaker was supposed to be built. There is no debate then that this is a manufacturing problem (regardless of how minor people may think it is). Just because we love BW we are more prone to overlook quality issues such as this. This hobby is so much about emotion that sometimes it does not allow us to see the warts. What if we applied this same situation to a more mundane product that we are not as emotionally attached to, something more utilitarian. Ask yourself how you would feel if there was something loose (that is NOT supposed to be) on your... (insert product here i.e. computer, microwave, toaster, etc). Would you feel disappointed? Would the experience leave a negative impression of the company's products? Would you buy from them again?

For me, if I was to spend $12K on these speakers (which I have), I would be very discouraged to see this. If the screw is supposed to be loose then fine, let the consumer know this so their expectations are properly set.

You are right, those car examples were bad...I have had several BMWs and now I dont..that should say something about what I think about their build quality.

The bottom line is this:
Some people on this forum may not care that there are these kinds of quality issues. Some people may dismiss it altogether. Some people may have higher expectations and would be very bothered. They should not be made to feel that they are being ridiculous.

[RebelMan]

Caressing your ladies Jesse?!?!?! It wasn't that long ago that you took your ladies out on the town, were dancing with them around the room, sitting in between listening to them blow sweet everythings in your ear, and now you are touching them in special places. You don't waste anytime getting to know your ladies. What's next dude? A romantic oil bath? :roflmao:

[Jesse111]

Caressing your ladies Jesse?!?!?! It wasn't that long ago that you took your ladies out on the town, were dancing with them around the room, sitting in between listening to them blow sweet everythings in your ear, and now you are touching them in special places. You don't waste anytime getting to know your ladies. What's next dude? A romantic oil bath? :roflmao:

:rofl:
Well, what can I say. I'm a ladies man. Got two really hot babes waiting for me to turn them on anytime day or night.

But I must admit, I never thought a wife could get so jealous over two wood boxes filled with wires and kevlar. :T

[PavelL]

Caressing your ladies Jesse?!?!?! It wasn't that long ago that you took your ladies out on the town, were dancing with them around the room, sitting in between listening to them blow sweet everythings in your ear, and now you are touching them in special places. You don't waste anytime getting to know your ladies. What's next dude? A romantic oil bath? :roflmao:

that WAS funny, RBLMN

[RebelMan]

But I must admit, I never thought a wife could get so jealous over two wood boxes filled with wires and kevlar. :T

Maybe it's the diamonds? LOL

[Jesse111]

Maybe it's the diamonds? LOL

Well you may have a point there Rebel. I forgot all about the diamonds. I guess I'm an insensitive guy after all.

When you start buying diamond for ladies that are described using the letter D, you gotta watch your step.

[Andrew M Ward]

Andrew, first of all thanks for pointing out the purpose of lock-tight (sic). I must have had it confused with Loctite, the most widely used brand of industrial adhesives.

Secondly, I am not confused about the purpose of Loctite and its effects on the screw. I am not a speaker designer but I was a manufacturing engineer in the semi-conductor industry for some time. If there was ever a change in a part or manufacturing process, engineering and manufacturing would have to get together to test and ensure that the change did not affect the product's reliability, performance, and build quality. Now I highly doubt that the assembly procedures is telling the technicians to install the screw loosely. If it is in the assembly procedures to tighten that screw to some torque or level of tightness, and it does not come delivered to the customer that way then there is a problem with build quaity. You state that shipping may have caused the screw to come loose. The BW engineers should have taken this into account when designing this, otherwise they are not very good. Believe me, I have been involved with manufacturing products for high tech and now life science for my entire career. When designing products, engineers have to take into account not only normal usage but some level of excessive usage. The products have be designed to work properly in both of these circumstances unless they are really sensitive measurement devices or the like.

Now we are not just talking about some insignificant screw. I would argue that the FST driver is BW's second most important technical marketing tool (the Diamond technology being the most important). If this is the kind of attention to detail that is paid to a very important aspect of the BW speaker then I am afraid to think how the other less obvious aspects of the speaker is built.

I am not disagreeing with people that this is not something easy to fix. The fact remains that this is not how the speaker was supposed to be built. There is no debate then that this is a manufacturing problem (regardless of how minor people may think it is). Just because we love BW we are more prone to overlook quality issues such as this. This hobby is so much about emotion that sometimes it does not allow us to see the warts. What if we applied this same situation to a more mundane product that we are not as emotionally attached to, something more utilitarian. Ask yourself how you would feel if there was something loose (that is NOT supposed to be) on your... (insert product here i.e. computer, microwave, toaster, etc). Would you feel disappointed? Would the experience leave a negative impression of the company's products? Would you buy from them again?

For me, if I was to spend $12K on these speakers (which I have), I would be very discouraged to see this. If the screw is supposed to be loose then fine, let the consumer know this so their expectations are properly set.

You are right, those car examples were bad...I have had several BMWs and now I dont..that should say something about what I think about their build quality.

The bottom line is this:
Some people on this forum may not care that there are these kinds of quality issues. Some people may dismiss it altogether. Some people may have higher expectations and would be very bothered. They should not be made to feel that they are being ridiculous.

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you in mid-debate, I got swamped

Nice work tboooe.... (seriously)
Firstly - in response - I have no idea what the glue compound is, I did not want to imply it was something it wasn't, so I created the word "lock-tight" assuming everybody would follow along...

There has been a change in the Mfg. process (as you imply and as is freely admitted) and it has been tested and there has been zero effects on the products reliability... There has been no increase in failures related to using less lock-tight. 0% effect on failure rate

Performance is also identical, be the screw tight to moderately tight, (no screws have been found to be "dangerously loose" or rattling) there are occasionally simply degrees of tightness... regardless, the speakers perform to published spec.

Beyond that:
as I said, one can make as big a deal of this as they so choose...

I am not attempting to make you "feel ridiculous" nor am I saying you are not allowed to imply "huge quality control issues" or imply "build quality issues" or "engineering accountability issues" etc. I don’t get to decide how you react to things or feel about things

I owned a Mercedes Benz that had multiple issues (over and over) No one at Mercedes could explain the decision making process regarding the failures associated with the car...much unlike what is going on here

Regarding B&W: The Head screw may arrive (on occasion) a degree looser (or tighter) than spec. - The reason for this has been explained and frankly B&W has been thanked by many-a-dealer for this - the head screw can be "tightened by hand" perfectly. This takes only a few seconds, unlike turntable adjustments that must be made regularly - this should only need to be done once (or never)

Again: As much or as little can be made of this as one chooses...

[mohawk155]

New 802D demo - loose tweeter on one side

Hello Everyone,

I just got a pair of 802Ds and both tweeters are "loose". I realize that is not a problem but one of them is significantly looser than the other. In fact, it is loose enough that if you roll the speaker on its casters, you get a "teetering tea cup" sound of of the tweeter as it hits and rehits the mid range module.

Any ideas on a quick fix?

Regards,
Gregory

[krellfan]

Try tightening the rod behind the tweeter. The long rod holds the tweeter in place.

[RobP]

The best idea would be to call your dealer and have them take a look at it, it should have some play in it, but not so much that it rocks back and forth.

[dyazdani]

5-min epoxy will take care of it...

I would call the dealer as well. I think the rod on the back holds in the tweeter itself, but there is another apparatus that hols the entire tweeter pod to the midrange.

[mohawk155]

thanks guys. I toyed with the idea of tightening the rod but stopped short of doing it. I called my dealer and he put me in touch with the rep. I'll let you know how I fair. I don't mind the fact that the tweeter is designed to be a certain way - only that they should BOTH be a certain way <g>.

Regards,
Gregory

PS - I just picked up some Classe CAM350s. Every hear them together with 802Ds?

[RobP]

Good luck on the tweeter, they should take care of you...

Congrats on the CAM350's, those are nice amplifiers, I have been wanting a pair myself for some time now. They should work very well with your 802d's