The Beasts are Here 2 x 436's

[misterdoggy]

Rebelman... you certainly know what you are talking about, what made me place the sub there after 2 years was that I bought a Velodyne Digital driver and the microphone help me to determine that the flatest responce I could obtain was right in the center of the room! If misterdoggy is going to leave the woofer on the back, for stereo, I do not know how the imaging will be even dough the bass is omnidirectional, I'm not shure.... For stereo I would prefer it enywhere in the front, and if he as we can see have a believe in cables, It's not a good idea a 26foot cable!

Aldo,

That is the problem. If you look at the foto My left speaker is almost blocking the chiminey. I will never get approval to move the 802D left and that puts it directly in front of the opening of the chimeny in order to squeeze the Sub between the 802's.

I may do it temp one day to see the difference in sound though. I just need more feet in the wall space. Another 2.5 feet would do it.

Rebelman,

Thanks for the tips. You know your stuff. Its all very interesting and worth looking in to.

[PavelL]

Rebelman... you certainly know what you are talking about, what made me place the sub there after 2 years was that I bought a Velodyne Digital driver and the microphone help me to determine that the flatest responce I could obtain was right in the center of the room! If misterdoggy is going to leave the woofer on the back, for stereo, I do not know how the imaging will be even dough the bass is omnidirectional, I'm not shure.... For stereo I would prefer it enywhere in the front, and if he as we can see have a believe in cables, It's not a good idea a 26foot cable!

Question 1 You use different amps - one built in the active sub and the other one driving your fronts. So how did you match the amps' GAIN? Does your system sound equally good at different listening levels ?

Question 2 Did you try to integrate that Velodyne EQ system in your particular setup? Or did it simply help you find the right spot for the sub?

Thanks

[Aldo]

I do integrate the velodyne Eq but at the end just for the LFE, because I do not want to degrade my front stereo signal. You can use the microphone of the Velodyne to walk arround the room and look graphically the best position (not the loudest one but the flater one)
For the first question: the sub has a gain knob, thats where you need to experiment or use the Velodyne mic to match the volume and responce of the speaker and the sub.
I do not recomend the velodyne EQ! his manual is the worst I ever saw and this little device almost blow my subs, and my ears! And the LCD front pannel on it is not working but because I live in Mexico and I bought it from amazon I can not return it!

[caleb]

Hey Aldo - very nice setup you have there.

I think the black finish on your speakers really goes well with the light coloured room.

Just a point - I think your surround 802s and the rears are just a little too close, with my system, I have my surround 802s at the side and the rear 802s at the back.

This is the more "classic" way of setup.

Have you tried this??

Do I understand you that you will have THREE subs in the future?

WOW - your house must be well built to stand that pressure ! ! 8O

[misterdoggy]

Another aspect is that you lose balanced interconnects while including the Sub in the loop. You have extra wires, not to mention lengths, not balanced which is important and lastly, the hope is to 'improve" upon a very good speaker that was created to recreate the full sound as is.

In other words improving a 800D or 802D speaker........

This is not to say that Aldo and Rebelman are not achieving something with their setups. And I might try it myself to see what it does.

But if the thinking is that a subwoofer has a larger speaker diameter and therefore will have better bass, then we all know where that discussion would lead as its not just size, but quality of speaker and the 800D's and 802D's are pretty good already.

It is very interesting and worth a try. For me getting my Sub in the front would already bea miracle, but alas it is destined to the side. I am thinking about moviing it to the back though.

[Aldo]

Dear caleb, No my back speaker ar not a little close, they are extremely close, I move them closer for the picture, and the right place would be at the same distance as the fronts, but as you can imagin that most of the time imposible!
I will have 4 subs, I order 2 more, the reason is that I want 2 at the front for stereo bass balance and 2 for LFE at the back. What I want to achive is not more volume, but balance, and something I discover when I put the second sub: When you use one sub it exitates some resonances in the room, like the framed pictures on the wall, etc. Adding another sub will exitate other frequencies, it doesnt matter if it is reproducing the same source 2 drivers will never move identical so magicaly the resonances disapeared, what one sub make move the other one stop it, Now you have to be very careful whit the sub placement because you can cancel some frequencies as well!

[Aldo]

misterdoggy: Look at these pictures I found in the web, Remember where the giant drum in an orchesta is? That exacly what you will find out when you put the sub there! This guy never seem to bother the signal loss of the RCA, if there is one!
I think that everything in this world can be inproved, If not why are we so crazy that we just keep buying audio gear!

[misterdoggy]

Nice fotos. I am definitely going to try it out. I need to find cables for the run. I have "cheapo's I can experiment with. Its just a shame to use anything cheap in the chain link.

I put up a couple of fotos too on the B&W page from France and Switzerland

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?p=285528#post285528

[VictorHRS]

Misterdoggy, a better way of doing what Aldo and Rebelman are suggesting without having to pass the signal through the subwoofer which will most certainly degrade the signal, is to use the loop out connections of your 436s to the sub. Another way is to use the unbalanced outs of the 326S simultaneously with the XLRs. The RCAs will go into the sub and the XLRs into the amps.

I have done this to integrate my DD18 with the 802Ds out of the Accuphase, it works really well for 2 channel. But for multichannel SACD, which sometimes has dedicated LFE output, it doesn't work well. To solve this, I'll get a switching box that will have 2 stere unbalanced outputs and one stereo unbalanced output, remotely switchable via trigger or via remote control. When I'm in 2 channel, I'll select the unbalanced input from the preamp, and when I'm on DVDs or multichannel SACDs, I'll select the input from the LFE channel from the processor.

Just some thoughts.

[Indytown]

misterdoggy: Look at these pictures I found in the web, Remember where the giant drum in an orchesta is? That exacly what you will find out when you put the sub there! This guy never seem to bother the signal loss of the RCA, if there is one!
I think that everything in this world can be inproved, If not why are we so crazy that we just keep buying audio gear!

Aldo, you are 100% right, if one could place the sub in the center it is amazing with the phanton center image. It free's up the other frequencies in the sound stage.

Indy

[Aldo]

Misterdoggy, a better way of doing what Aldo and Rebelman are suggesting without having to pass the signal through the subwoofer which will most certainly degrade the signal, is to use the loop out connections of your 436s to the sub. Another way is to use the unbalanced outs of the 326S simultaneously with the XLRs. The RCAs will go into the sub and the XLRs into the amps.

I have done this to integrate my DD18 with the 802Ds out of the Accuphase, it works really well for 2 channel. But for multichannel SACD, which sometimes has dedicated LFE output, it doesn't work well. To solve this, I'll get a switching box that will have 2 stere unbalanced outputs and one stereo unbalanced output, remotely switchable via trigger or via remote control. When I'm in 2 channel, I'll select the unbalanced input from the preamp, and when I'm on DVDs or multichannel SACDs, I'll select the input from the LFE channel from the processor.

Just some thoughts.

The thing is that as I start, you need 2 subs, one for the fronts and one for LFE, if misterdoggy is so concern about the cables, I don't think he will consider a switcher evenif it's passive or active!
Your solution dought sounds very good if you do not want to pass the signal through the sub. But I would keep the switcher out having a second sub!

[misterdoggy]

Hmmmmmmm So A solution that sounds like a real possibility is to use the unbalanced outputs of the 326S which has the same signal going to the Amp in balanced. This way I only have one cable going only to the Sub with all the same settings otherwise.

This can't damage the 326S ? Having simultaneous outputs.

This sounds very do-able

This works for stereo, but I lose out on special effects on HT. That is why Aldo says the only way it really pays off is if you have a second Sub for the LFE effects on 5.1

[VictorHRS]

The thing is that as I start, you need 2 subs, one for the fronts and one for LFE, if misterdoggy is so concern about the cables, I don't think he will consider a switcher evenif it's passive or active!
Your solution dought sounds very good if you do not want to pass the signal through the sub. But I would keep the switcher out having a second sub!

As for the switcher, Aldo, because it won't have to deal with mid and treble frequencies which as more sucetible the signal degradation - they will be thrown away by the sub crossover -, it most likely won't degrade the bass signals. That is, of course, if you use a decent switcher. In the other hand, by passing the full signal from the preamp to the sub and then to the powers, the possibility of signal degradation is much higher because the sub will have the deal with the much more complicated treble and mid frequencies.

Of course having a second sub is way easier :T , but it's more expensive and subs usually are big which makes it difficult to place correctly 1 on most rooms, imagine 2. Also we have to consider that the second sub might be also for the sub channel in multichannel SACD, so itss placement is equally important as the first sub. In the case multichannel music is not important, you can put the sub on less than ideal places and not compromise too much of the performance.

[Aldo]

misterdoggy: You know what, I read the part of your manual that talks about the Balance and unbalanced outputs but I couln'd find if that connection is OK, be careful, please ask an expert before do it! (using both outputs).
Don't worry to much about the front sub.... I think it improves sound but not enough to change everything you already accomplish!

[VictorHRS]

This can't damage the 326S ? Having simultaneous outputs.

This sounds very do-able

This works for stereo, but I lose out on special effects on HT. That is why Aldo says the only way it really pays off is if you have a second Sub for the LFE effects on 5.1

I think you should ask ML technical support about it first, just to be certain.

And it also works for 5.1 if you use a switcher for the sub inputs as I have explained previously. And even if you don't use the switcher you won't "loose" LFE signals, because you will program your Lexicon as if you had a 5.0 setup. So it will mix the LFE signals to all speakers that are set to large, or full range. The only problem with this is that watching movies at very high spls which may high very high LFE effects in it might damage your 802Ds, although very unlikely, the sub 20hz signals destined to the sub might damage the woofers.

[misterdoggy]

Hmmmmmmm

Sounds all very experimental. I would definitely ask ML before hooking two outputs to different. It might even have a protection if it senses dual output presence.

Probably not. And it probably would work, but I woud check first don't worry before doing this kind of op on a 326S.

I discussed the Sub scenario with a B&W tech who had very little patience to listen about it, but my feeling was that he flet it almost laughable. He couldn't say that B&W was either for or against the idea or even support that the idea was good or bad. He felt you had to experiment and what ever you come up with that works is best.

He did say that the 800D's were already a full range speaker capable of reproducing full sound without the aid of a Sub. Hear more ? he thought not Hear better ? he thought not. then when discussing the lower hz that the 800's cold not go down to, well ....... He just said the best thing anyone can do to improve an already great speaker is the way a room is set up. Carpet, furniture, walls object everything plays a VERY important part. The ROOM.........

[Aldo]

Yes! The 800 and the 802D speakers can go very low, the problem is that the placement of the speakers affect them a lot, for example my 800 have a loss of bass enormous, you can't do so much with the speaker but you can with subs, thats where all the sub idea came from, by telling you these I'm also accepting that I do have a loss in the bass signal from my 800 and maybe that is the reason I first put 2 subs! so... If you are happy with the bass responce of your 802D, stop worring and enjoy your setup!

[RebelMan]

This is not to say that Aldo and Rebelman are not achieving something with their setups. And I might try it myself to see what it does.

My current two-channel system is sans any subwoofers for three reasons. First, I have a single subwoofer and two are necessary to produce optimal results. Second, I am running fully balanced connections which, unfortunately, my ASW-825 doesn't support. Third, I am not a proponent of integrating subwoofers into two-channel systems because they have the potential for injecting substantial levels of unwanted distortion. Given the ASW-825 was designed with two-channel integration in mind it would be an exception. Most others are typically designed for adding visceral thrill rather than resolving musical subtelties.

The steps I described earlier, which parallel Aldo's implementation, is how it (two-channel B&W subwoofer systems) should be done to achieve the best results.

[RebelMan]

Misterdoggy, a better way of doing what Aldo and Rebelman are suggesting without having to pass the signal through the subwoofer which will most certainly degrade the signal, is to use the loop out connections of your 436s to the sub. Another way is to use the unbalanced outs of the 326S simultaneously with the XLRs. The RCAs will go into the sub and the XLRs into the amps.

I have done this to integrate my DD18 with the 802Ds out of the Accuphase, it works really well for 2 channel. But for multichannel SACD, which sometimes has dedicated LFE output, it doesn't work well. To solve this, I'll get a switching box that will have 2 stere unbalanced outputs and one stereo unbalanced output, remotely switchable via trigger or via remote control. When I'm in 2 channel, I'll select the unbalanced input from the preamp, and when I'm on DVDs or multichannel SACDs, I'll select the input from the LFE channel from the processor.

What you propose is not necessarily an improvement. The circuits B&W chooses for its 800 Series subwoofers are generally of very high quality. Any signal loss is more likely to come from cable interference. And since your solution fails to eschew the additional cabling nothing is gained there. Switching devices, which are more likely to degrade the signal, are unnecessary and two-channel and multichannel systems are seamlessly integrated. Futhermore, the audible benefits of running fully balanced connections could become compromised when single-ended connections are simultaneously introduced. Finally, with the mains reproducing the full range of frequencies, bass timber imbalances and excess low frequency distortion will surface.