703's with Mac SS

[fauzigarib]

Hello all,

I was just surfing the net, trying to get some research done before I jump in with my purchase of a new pair of 703's, when I was directed to these forums. Awesome!

I've been a big fan of B&W for a long time now but have been busy for the past year or so working on my Klipschorn rig. I must say that it's turned out sweet as heck, but that's a different story, and a completely different forum!

Anyways, in researchingthis speaker, I can't seem to get a consensus on my major concern. I have a McIntosh SS Integrated amp, the MA 6400... Runs beautifully with the KHorns. I believe it puts out 100 Watts of power, and is capable of beautifully clean power, IMO.

Jim on this forum was nice enough to respond to my PM to him, but I wanted to put it out on the open forum and see if anyone has any hands on experience with this particular amp. I would really like to use it to run the new speakers, as I LOVE it's sound, and am sure that if it can drive the 703's, the combo would be not short of stunning.

My first post here... any help would be greatly appreciated!

Regards,

Fauzi

[Aussie Geoff]

Fauzi,

That Mac Amp will easily drive the 703s - they are easy to drive well (not like the 803s) and the two should sing... I've heard Mac and 703s and they are a nice combination...

Geoff

[fauzigarib]

damn damn damn...

...damn damn damn!!!

I knew that you would say that!!!! Now you've convinced me that I need to buy these speakers!!!

The only problem that I'm facing is that, even though I've heard these speakers before, I want to be sure to hear them with this particular amp. Unfortunately, the dealer network in Pakistan is nothing like what you're used to in the US, where you can convince a dealer fairly easily at this price point to let you bring in your electronics, or perhaps even have an in home demo.

The only B&W dealer is in Lahore, which is about a 2.5 hour and $200 plane ride... and I'm not about to lug my Mac around, even if I do get convinced enough to go.

So I've asked for him to ask some of his customers in my city, Karachi, if they are ok with a stranger (albeit, a nice one!) coming into their house with his own amp!!

So let's see how this works out... I do have a sneaky suspicion that my patience will run out, and I'll end up taking a leap of faith.

I just know the hellish time I've spent bringing my Klipschorn system up to the level it's at, and I know how darn tough it is "feeding this habit" in Pakistan.

Oh well.... wish me luck.

Meanwhile, any other feedback about the combo is highly appreciated. I did read on this forum somewhere that someone was having a thermal protection signal light up while trying to drive a pair of B&W's... 703's i think.

Thanks for the advice,

Fauzi

[jim777]

I very rarely use more than 20 Watts of my MA6500 with my 703's. They play loud enough with 2-5Watts...

You will never have "themal protection" problems or what-so-ever with the mac (unless it's broken of course).

I love mac because you get just the right amount of detail while remaining very sweet. Like I've read somewhere: when the actor jumps, I don't want to see the wires. That makes me think of mac. I want to hear the music, and not the digital bits going around!

You'll love Mac and 703's, but you'll also need a good source,

Have fun,

Jimmy.

[fauzigarib]

What about the 804S?

Jim,

Of course, since I'm looking to purchase new, I can't help but think instead of going with the 703's, what about, just for argument's sake, I decide to go for the 804S instead.

I'm not too hot on spending the big bucks for the new Diamond range, and I'm sure that if I look around, I can get a good deal on the older 804. If it's within a 1k range of the 703's, I'll even consider it.

However, I'm still really bent on running it with my Mac. Is that possible with that series? From what I've read on this forum, it doesn't look possible... but let's hear from you folks out there. I'm not too excited about getting new electronics just yet.

This is the worst part of buying new gear... You think you can stop just before the highest range... but just when you're about to pull the trigger, you get a case of, "What if?!?" :twisted:

Regards,

Fauzi

[Michael Bishop]

703s and the MA6900

Fauzi,

I did run into a problem powering my B&W 703s with the McIntosh MA6900 integrated amp. I was playing some bass-heavy music at a moderately loud volume, and about 20 minutes into it - the amp shutdown. The red/orange power guard LED lights illuminated for both the left and right channels, and the amp was very hot to touch. Obviously, this was a case of thermal shutdown. After about 10 minutes, the amp had cooled enough to resume playing.

I contacted McIntosh about this problem, and they suggested moving my speaker wires from the 8 ohm taps (which I was initially using) to the 4 ohm taps. I did this. Note: the MA6900 is rated at 200 watts/ch into 8, 4, or even 2 ohms. There's even a set of 2 ohm taps on the back of the amp. Also note that both the speakers and the amp were purchased new, so I know this equipment has never been abused in any way.

So far no recurring problems since I changed to the 4 ohm taps, however, the amp still gets alarmingly hot when I play that same bass-heavy CD mix of mine. But so far, no shutdown. I believe I could shut this amp down again (4 ohm taps notwithstanding), but I've been exercising some volume restraint since the initial incident occurred.

After doing some research on McIntosh amplifier designs, I've come to the conclusion that the recent Mc designs do have some cooling/efficiency issues that can lead to thermal runaway, if playing music (or test signals) that require even a fraction of the rated power, but at a continuous draw. If you don't believe me, see this article:

http://stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/804mcintosh/index5.html

I not trying to ding McIntosh here - I love my amplifier. And the sound from the combo of the MA6900 and the 703s is truely supreme. But I did run into this issue - and I don't think my amp is defective. If anything, it's a design issue. BTW, I've been told that the 703s have a local minimum impedance of 2.8 ohms at 100Hz! Perhaps I should consider running them off my 2 ohm taps?!

[fauzigarib]

Wow!

Michael!

"BTW, I've been told that the 703s have a local minimum impedance of 2.8 ohms at 100Hz! Perhaps I should consider running them off my 2 ohm taps?!"

That's some serious load... and that's precisely why I'm a little scared to do make that final jump. However, knowing myself, I'm probably not going to wait for too long. And when I do, I plan on running the speakers off the 2 ohm taps... Makes more sense, and is probably safer. The MA6400 is rated at 100W at 4 ohms... Better to be safe than sorry.

I did read your earlier posts about this problem, and that is what prompted me to as about this combo. Being a die-hard Klipsch-ite, I am not used to amps running hot at all.

What about my question about the 804S? You think it's better to run the top of the line 700 series, or an older 800?

Thanks for the input...

-Fauzi

[norpus]

Michael!

"BTW, I've been told that the 703s have a local minimum impedance of 2.8 ohms at 100Hz! Perhaps I should consider running them off my 2 ohm taps?!"

That's some serious load... and that's precisely why I'm a little scared to do make that final jump. However, knowing myself, I'm probably not going to wait for too long. And when I do, I plan on running the speakers off the 2 ohm taps... Makes more sense, and is probably safer. The MA6400 is rated at 100W at 4 ohms... Better to be safe than sorry.

I did read your earlier posts about this problem, and that is what prompted me to as about this combo. Being a die-hard Klipsch-ite, I am not used to amps running hot at all.

What about my question about the 804S? You think it's better to run the top of the line 700 series, or an older 800?

Thanks for the input...

-Fauzi

Go the 703 - will be easier for your amp to run to highest level and very nice speakers

[jim777]

The MA6500 is rated at 200W into 4 ohm and drives my 703's at full power without any problem at all; and my MA6500 is in a cabinet. I think that the 703's load is around 4 ohm and not 8, and if I had a MA6900, I would use the 4 ohm tap.

The 703's will sound great with mac and my dealer told me that most people prefered this match than mac with N804's. Now he doesn't even hold anything between the 703's and the 803D's because most of the time "it wasn't worth going for the 800 series unless you get a diamond". Now that's his opinion, I never listened to the "lower" 800 range and I'm very happy with my 703's. I can hear that the 803D's are better, but the difference doesn't make me sad at all. I think my kit is pretty much in the sweet spot for my budget, now I'm working on the video side right now.

[Michael Bishop]

What about my question about the 804S? You think it's better to run the top of the line 700 series, or an older 800?

Fauzi,

I really don't know how the 804S would behave with my MA6900 - since I've never had that combination set up.

I also considered the 804S in my purchasing calculus. However, after extensive listening, I decided I liked the sound of the 703s better. I felt the bass was just a little more extended on the 703s, and I couldn't really hear a diff in the mids or highs. Imaging was about the same, with a slight advantage on the 804S. Of course, you mileage may vary.

I'm sure I would have been happy with the 804S, but side-by-side, the 703s won. The fact that the 703s were less money was not really a factor in my decision.

I'm sure you will enjoy whatever you end up with. BTW, I asked my B&W dealer about new models in the 800 line. He said there is an 805D in the works. But said there is not an 804D model coming - which I found surprising because, the 804 is very popular. Seems like they could make more money with an 804D given the upgrade cycle it would generate among B&W owners.

[DM3000 Owner]

Glad to see you over here.

Without personal experience, I'd say go for the N804's (or 804s if you buy newer ones). A member on the Klipsch Forum has both La Scalas and 804's and told me that he almost always runs the 804's, hands down.

The top end of the La Scalas is the same as the K Horns, only difference is the bass bin. I have never heard the 700 series, but we do know one member who prefers the 804's to the big heritage. I prefer my N801's to the K Horn, but thats a different story and I replaced amps and preamp too. The spending doesn't seem to end.

Good luck.

Chris

[alebonau]

Fauzi,

I really don't know how the 804S would behave with my MA6900 - since I've never had that combination set up.

I also considered the 804S in my purchasing calculus. However, after extensive listening, I decided I liked the sound of the 703s better. I felt the bass was just a little more extended on the 703s, and I couldn't really hear a diff in the mids or highs. Imaging was about the same, with a slight advantage on the 804S. Of course, you mileage may vary.

I'm sure I would have been happy with the 804S, but side-by-side, the 703s won. The fact that the 703s were less money was not really a factor in my decision.

I'm sure you will enjoy whatever you end up with. BTW, I asked my B&W dealer about new models in the 800 line. He said there is an 805D in the works. But said there is not an 804D model coming - which I found surprising because, the 804 is very popular. Seems like they could make more money with an 804D given the upgrade cycle it would generate among B&W owners.

I've heard the 804s and 703 albeit in separate sittings. I could not see the hoo-hah that would justify the cost of the 804. But it does have some nice cabinetry. The cabinetry on hte 703 is nice too, well built but problem is wouldnt sayt its sound is that much far fo the 804.

If they did an upgrade on the 804 wiht a diamond tweeter maybe it would have more going for it, but then again it might cost a bit more again !

If goign for the 703 dont scrimp on the amp, dont know hte mac ss but dont go somethign like a rotel 1080 although its got power, bass I found at a friends place to be quite loose/flabby and that was even a metre out from the walls. Some cleaner sounding amps soon cleaned that up. And dont scrimp on the pre or source as well. Somethign decent here will give rewards as well and do explore the options.

[Briz vegas]

804s lobby group

As the owner of a pair of 804s you can probably guess what I am going to say. I will start with something remotely useful and say that 100 watts should be plenty for 804s as I am using a 100 watt power amp. I have never been anywhere near clipping or overheating my amp when bothering my neighbours with loud music.

I already had (still have) a pair of 705 so when I was looking to upgrade I wanted the both the biggest sound quality improvement I could afford and also a sound I would be happy with in the long term. 803 in either form was just too much money for me, in fact the 804s were a stretch for my budget. In Australia the 804s is about 40% more than 703. That sort of increase is only justified if you hear a difference and the improvement takes you to a level you are happy with. If your budget allows 804 then I would suggest auditioning 703, 805s and 804s - then take your pick. (some would also say listen to the XT also - I have not heard them).

[DM3000 Owner]

OK,

I have not heard that many B&W's but have loved the ones that I have heard. I really like the 805S speakers. Really nice sound from a small package. How do the CDM's compare to the 805's?

[fauzigarib]

Busted!!!

Chris!

What're you doing here?!?!? I was trekking quietly on this forum, silently surfing through cyberspace, guilty as sin because I was cheating on our Klipsch forum... and you show up! Busted!!!!

8O 8O

Anyway, on a more serious note, my biggest problem is not being able to audition things over, coupled with my urgency to spend my hard earned money!!!

If I wait, I'm sure that the next time I travel, I'll be able to audition the 2 choices side by side. But I don't want to end up getting the 804S, and realize that they are just not able to be run by my Mac. Then I'll be forced to immeidately start upgrading the electronics, and that's a whole can of worms that I just don't want to be forced into...

In fact, I have it in the back of my mind that even if I puchase the 703's, I do plan on upgrading to some higher end stuff because I want the Mac back on the KHorns in the long term. However, until that time, I don't want to be pushed into it if I find that it's not capable of Nautilus / 8 series duty!

Michael,

I looked up some specs and you were right. On paper, the 703's go down to 3 ohms... On the net, I found people that have had them load as low as 2.1-2.2 ohms.... I wonder if it's just a good idea to put them on the 2 ohm taps to start off with. What are the plus points / draw backs of that?

Fauzi

[Michael Bishop]

I wonder if it's just a good idea to put them on the 2 ohm taps to start off with. What are the plus points / draw backs of that?

Fauzi,

I think if you connect the amp at the lower impedance taps, what you are essentially doing is current-limiting the amp. My understanding is that a generic amp rated at 100 watts into 8 ohms and 200 watts into 4 ohms, would be half of that when connected to the 4 ohm taps. However, amp designs differ, and the McIntosh MA6900 supposedly delivers 200 watts continuous power regardless of which taps are used. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable of electronics can give a better explanation than this.

Since reconnecting my 703s to the 4 ohm taps on my MA6900, I have not noticed any loss of power, and the amp does seem to run slightly cooler than before. Unless I have another thermal shutdown issue, I'll just leave the 703s connected to the 4 ohm taps.

[jim777]

Fauzi,

I think if you connect the amp at the lower impedance taps, what you are essentially doing is current-limiting the amp. My understanding is that a generic amp rated at 100 watts into 8 ohms and 200 watts into 4 ohms, would be half of that when connected to the 4 ohm taps. However, amp designs differ, and the McIntosh MA6900 supposedly delivers 200 watts continuous power regardless of which taps are used. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable of electronics can give a better explanation than this.

Since reconnecting my 703s to the 4 ohm taps on my MA6900, I have not noticed any loss of power, and the amp does seem to run slightly cooler than before. Unless I have another thermal shutdown issue, I'll just leave the 703s connected to the 4 ohm taps.

You are not current limiting anything. Every amp is designed or optimized for a specific load. With mac's autoformer, you can plug 8ohm speakers on the 8ohm tap, 4ohm speakers on the 4ohm tap, etc., and the amp will see the same load. If you plug 8ohm speakers on the 4ohm tap, you will be loosing a little bit of volume (it will sound like 100W instead of 200W) but you will gain in bass control (the damping factor will double). You need to 10x the power to hear twice as loud, so that is why the 4ohm tap sounds pretty much as loud as the 8ohm tap. I would not go for the 2ohm tap for 703's though, unless you like the sound of it (but you will not be using all the power your amp can give you).

Most B&W's look much more like 4ohm speakers than 8ohm BTW.

But I still don't understand why the MA6900 couldn't survive 703's on the 8ohm tap. Mac amps have the reputation of being capable of running a 1ohm load all day long (on the 2ohm tap)...