New member, B&W 703 owner

[Andries]

Hi there! What a great forum. I was looking for info on toe-in for my 703 loudspeakers when I came across this one. Excellent information and images of owners' systems. Will post mine soon. The 703s are the biggest asset to my stereo audio system due to the fantastic visual appearance.

But after many hours they still sound a bit sharp. Maybe this is the way they are supposed to sound. Current setup is in a room 6 x 6 m, carpeted and heavy curtained. Speakers are on spikes and toe-ed in by about 10 degrees. Driven by really smooth Valve Audio Predator amplifier. Imaging is not that great. Any suggestions?

[jim777]

You will need more toe-in. They image well when almost pointed at the listening spot.

They might be the B&W's that require the most break-in time. In a few weeks the sharpness will cool off and a few weeks later bass will get better and better.

Do you have a good source? A universal player might not do the trick..

I am very happy with my 703's now

[Andries]

Thanks Jim777, I will try the extra toe-in immediately. Source is an excellent turntable (Rega P7 / RB 700 / Ortofon Kontrapunkt A) and the vinyl is in mint condition.

[ShadowZA]

Welcome to the forum, Andries. Hope that you enjoy it here. Looking forward to some pics of your 703's

[dyazdani]

Welcome! Give it some time and play with the toe-in - you should get things sounding better soon!

[wkhanna]

2 channel and vinyl!

Welcome and please stay!

[b&w fan]

curious about your interest for LPs

I have read all your posts and I find them very interesting, but I am unable to understand what you like so much about vinil LPs. I am so glad they passed away ..., the same about cassete tapes. So, what is that that you like so much about LPs? I am curious, maybe you know something I ignore about them ...

[Andries]

B&W Fan, I guess it is the interaction one has with the medium. One could argue the virtues of the various media and each will have an area that edges out the other. Somehow the vinyl sound seems more "involving" (not my own term but some others also use it) whereas the digital counterparts can sound distant. But I am sure that something like SACD offers a big step forward.

It's impossible to have a genuine A/B comparison between vinyl and any other format. But something like Alison Krauss and Union Station's album So long, so wrong on Mobile Fidelity is proof that there is still a lot of life in vinyl. While I enjoy the medium, I don't make a fuss about it and have many CDs for which I cannot or will not buy the vinyl counterpart. That said, there's no other way to enjoy a good music show than on DVD. My favourite is Sheryl Crow's Rockin' the Globe, Live! and the Riverdance recording done in Radio City, New York, 1995. My copy is a Zone 2 PAL, DTS version. Incredible!

[jim777]

My new McIntosh MCD201 SACD/CD player sounds warm and "involving" too

But even if I don't have vinyl, I've heard some great tables a few times and they just sound great :T

We're not talking about our old uncle's table though :

And CD's often suffer of too much dynamic compression, but that's another story.....

[Andries]

Jim777, it is exactly because of the compression used on CD that a lot of people who have invested heavily in the digital medium have returned to vinyl. It's interesting to note that in 2004, the sale of new vinyl outperformed SACD and DVD-A combined! Now I am not saying this to start an analogue vs digital discussion (this is an HT forum after all) because clearly SACD has to be given time to establish itself. What is interesting though the current simultaneous release of new titles on CD and vinyl - Bruce Springsteen's Devils and Dust being one. I think record companies are having another look at vinyl, even for limited markets. But then the vinyl resurgence is huge in the US, which is where we get most of our stuff from.

I have found though that in South Africa at least, the vinyl we import from the US and Europe is often cheaper than even locally produced CDs. Ask any South African on the forum and they will probably agree that mass production of vinyl LPs in this country is what killed it in the eighties and the same is happening to CD now. Often the compression on stuff like the Now! compilation series is so bad that it's unlistenable. But because these CDs are aimed at a younger generation who listen to it using small combos, ghetto blasters and maybe car CD players, it will only make a general noise anyway and they are happy with this. Put it on a decent system and it sounds horrible. It's not the medium that is the problem but the care that goes into the preparation of the product.

My Pink Floyd SACD Dark Side of the Moon sounds wonderful, even if it is a hybrid. But then it was produced in the EU (Netherlands, I think?). I flatly refuse to buy any CD or DVD made in my own country, unless it is local music that will not be available in any other way. Why? Too expensive or at least as expensive as the imported copy and inferior packaging and quality.

[Audiophiliac]

I think that most people stay away from vinyl because it requires too much effort. We as humans are inherently lazy. And who wants to dust of their vinyl, and get the carbon brushes out and align their styli, and all this, when you can push a button. Oh...and you can drop CDs and walk on them, and they will still play.

All I know, is a high end turntable, playing fresh, well-produced LPs, through some high end tube gear into high end speakers (especially electrostats), is magical to say the least. You cant diss it until you try it...period. Anyone who hasn't listened to a high end vinyl rig, has zero room to produce any opinion on the matter.

[asrovnal]

I also have 703s and have them towed in about 10%. Mine took 200-300 hours of break in time. Then one day it was WOW!

[Andries]

Asrovnal, you're spot on here. Returning to the start of the thread, I had a problem with imaging and was looking for information on toe-in, which is how I found this forum. Jim777 suggested more toe-in. I did thid and wow! suddenly things just snapped into place. It appears that I needed slightly more than the 10% toe-in, more like 15%. Isn't it amazing what big difference can be brought by such a small change?

My last comment on the vinyl thing - like with the loudspeakers, a turntable / arm / cartridge allows you really fine tweaking which often results in amazing improvement. My system is a happy co-existence between analogue and digital formats, hopefully to be boosted by the possible purchase of a Marantz SA 11 S-1 SACD player (or similar).

If anyone has experience with a good universal player, let me know.

[jim777]

I have the new McIntosh MCD201 SACD/CD player (stereo only, no video). I also listened to the MVP861 (5.1 & stereo DVDA/DVDV/SACD/CD w/video).

My opinion and other people comments on the MCD201 describe it as being "analog (LP)", detailed & smooth at the same time, laid back (well maybe not with 703's), involving, etc.

My experience upgrading to the MCD201 was a lot more "air" (ambiance around the instruments as I understand it), and presence (like bass extension or something, you feel the bass strings, even with 703's). Since I work in audio codecs, I can add that presence and ambiance have a lot to do with stereo separation and energy below 400Hz.

The MCD201 also has a pre-amp with the best headphone output I've ever heard.

[dknightd]

I like my 703's toed in so they point about 2' behind my head.
The 703 are on the bright side. They settle down after several hundred hours, but are still a little bright. There seems to be a peak about where the midrange crosses over to the tweeter. Maybe mine are not finished breaking in yet, or maybe it is just the nature of the speaker. I found treating the first reflection point on the side walls helped alot.

[jim777]

dknightd, how old are your 703's? What amplification/source do you have??

[dknightd]

They are about three months old. Source is a Benchmark DAC1 (using a computer as transport with mostly lossless files). Currently using a Yamaha receiver as preamp (it sounds better if I use the DAC1 as a preamp and bypass the Yamaha, but then I can't use other sources). Amplifier is old Adcom 535. I think a decent preamp, and bigger amplifier might help - I'm saving my pennies. . .

[dknightd]

p.s. I think some of this perceived brightness might be due to exposing flaws in stuff that I never noticed before. The 703 are much more ruthless in being accurate to the recording than what I was using before. This can be good and bad . . .
I still suspect the 703 have a bump at around 4 khz but I've not seen a properly measured frequency plot of this speaker. I believe the specs that b&w give, but + or - 3 db gives alot of room for error. I suspect they are down 3db at around 1khz, and +3db at around 4khz. Which would make them sound bright. Still the FST driver b&w uses in the 703 is the best I heard in this price range. A few weeks ago the lower midrange, upper bass, of male voices I'd been missing suddenly came back. Maybe the lower trebble, upper midrange of percussive intruments will eventually sort itself out. I guestimate I've had these things running for about 200 hours, about 30 of those hours at pretty high volume. I don't think they will change any more, but it is possible.
Evaluation has been complicated perhaps by my recent discovery of the importance of room treatment. It is amazing what a few hundred $ is fiberglass will do to a room. I still need to treat the first reflection point on the ceiling, maybe this will cure what I still percieve as a slight brightness

[bigburner]

That said, there's no other way to enjoy a good music show than on DVD. My favourite is Sheryl Crow's Rockin' the Globe, Live!

Andries, I agree with you 100% regarding music DVDs. However I think that "Sheryl Crow - Rockin' the Globe Live" is a bad example due to its sub-standard sound mixing. In contrast "Cream - Royal Albert Hall" - for example - is an outstanding mix with every instrument and voice crystal clear and in balance.