Room Treatment advice for my B&W and wooden floors?

[EastCoaster]

Howdy all,

If you remember, I was planning on moving between apartments with my 4 x 805s, HTM4 and ASW 825. My old apartment had great acoustics - I felt like I was inside of a warm bubble of sound... My new apartment's acoustics are scary - horrible... Harsh and bright highs, boomy and bouncy bass...

Old apartment - small room, wall behind front L&R, wall behind back L&R, wall-to-wall carpeting, low cieling.

New apartment - larger room, wall behind front L&R only (pretty empty space behind back L&R), hardwood floor, high cieling.

The result is that my amazing "sound bubble" is out the window... I think it's because the sound waves are no longer bouncing back and forth between my walls... ops:

Since I'm used to such great sound out of my multichannel music, I'm pretty desperate to do whatever I can to get the sound back. The only way I can get much bang out of my back L&R is if I crank up the volume on them considerably, and they are 4 feet to me, while the front L&R are twice as far!

I know there have been discussions in the past on room treatments - is there something that people have used that really, really worked and was at a reasonable price-point?

I'm going crazy here!

Thanks!

[Aussie Geoff]

Hi,

I have renamed this thread so that the people likely to know will see it and respond

Geoff

[Karma]

HI East,
It's hard enough to treat a room when one is standing in it. Trying to advise you without knowing its actual configuration is a waste of time. If you want good ideas you should provide specific information. A drawing would be a big help (include major openings and connected spaces) as well as specifics about wall, floor, and ceiling construction. Locations of the major furniture pieces and where you plan to place your speakers are also essential.

Help us help you.

Sparky

[coxhaus]

I also am having a problem with wood floors. I moved from a slab (concert) foundation house to an older pier and beam house with wood floors. I have either lost my bass or my upper mid range is too lively not sure. I have owned B&W 801s for about 13 years. In my last house the sound was great but not now I have great concern over the sound. Will I sell my speakers or can I tune my house. The room is larger than my last house. The room is probably around 900 square feet with 10 foot ceiling. There are also lots of windows in the room.
My equipment is Sonic Frontiers Preamp and Sonic Frontiers Power 3 tube amps. My CD equipment is Mark Levinson transport and DAC.
The only tuning I have tried so far to tune my room is an 8x12’ rug in front of the speakers. I thought I would try a sub. I have a sub woofer in my Den with my home theater setup which I can use for testing. Has anybody tuned a room like this with success?

[grit]

Hi,

I have renamed this thread so that the people likely to know will see it and respond

Geoff

Heheh, thanks. I wish titles were always so informative.

[EastCoaster]

If you want good ideas you should provide specific information. A drawing would be a big help (include major openings and connected spaces) as well as specifics about wall, floor, and ceiling construction. Locations of the major furniture pieces and where you plan to place your speakers are also essential.Sparky

Hi Sparky - of course, you're absolutely right! I'm attaching a detailed drawing in JPEG format (I'm hoping it attaches to this post!).

The furniture in my "music area" include my sofa, and a side table next to the back right 805s, next to the wall (not depicted). I have a persian rug infront of the telly, and a small cocktail table on it (also not drawn in). The construction of the walls is sheetrock over brick. The floor is hardwood, over cement. You'll see that the orientation of the back L&R 805s is that the tweeter is aimed right at me - I really like that, but not sure if many people are doing that. My other option is to place the back L&R speakers right behind the sofa, and aim them at my head - what do you think about that? :W

Any help would be grand!

[EastCoaster]

Heheh, thanks. I wish titles were always so informative.

I always like to do funky titles to posts - more people get intreagued and read them!

[perato]

You really should close that gap marked "opening to kitchen" with a door or some movable barrier. As for acoustical treatments, there are MANY options available from manufacturers like Auralex, RPG, Real Traps, etc. Audioholics recently reviewed the GIK Acoustics 244 Absorption Panels. You can even make your own panels. There are forums dedicated room acoustics, one of which is on this website (called "Spaced Out").

[Karma]

HI East,
Thanks for the drawing. It helps.

First things first, right? Work on getting the basic frequency balance of the room right. First off, pick out some of your favorite recordings and use only those for judging the changes. Being your favorites will make this work fun. Try to visualize how the sound is moving through the space in three dimensions. It is a big help to have an assistant move the treatment material around while you listen. Kids work well. Blankets can be used to get an initial feel for the reflection paths.

Right now, based on your description, the room sounds way too bright. Carpet the floor and put heavy drapes on the windows and sliding door. Close them when listening. Next, identify the early reflection paths to your listening position. These will be the paths by which the sound reaches the listening position after reflecting once off a room surface. Use wall hangings or treatment material to dampen the paths. Dampen the rear wall. Dampen behind the front speakers.

Then sit back and take stock. The room should sound warmer and the image and soundstage should be better defined. You may not need to do more. If you are not satisfied use more wall treatment but be careful to not over damp. Have a definite reason for each change you make to the room. Listen for the desired result. Try to balance the treatment such that both left and right walls are roughly equally treated. This will tend to stabilize the virtual image across the frequency band.

Be aware that as you treat the room the mid and high frequencies will be reduced in prominence. The secondary effect is the bass will relatively emphasized. Consider reducing the subwoofer volume to compensate.

Bass is going to be difficult. The 12 foot dimension appears both as a wall length and ceiling height. Since the 12 foot ceiling is shared by the entire house (is that true?) the bass resonances will be very strong at around 50Hz and its harmonics. This is probably the basic reason for your bass problems. I suggest that you either buy or build some bass traps to reduce the bass energy at those frequencies with 50Hz being the most important one. Or you can reduce the ceiling height :W .

Also, the 22 foot dimension is very close to double the 12 foot dimensions. It's close enough for reinforcement to occur. In effect, you have 3 dimensions that have either a direct or harmonic relationship to one another. It's not exact but close enough to be a concern. This is a difficult situation. It's no wonder you are having trouble.

Play with the placement of your subwoofer. This may offer some good possibilities for moving the very strong room bass modes away from the listening position. You might consider investing in another sub which usually helps level things out. It did in my case. Besides, another sub will generally be good for your spirit (and bass performance).

Closing off the openings may prove counterproductive because this will tend to improve the efficiency of the difficult bass reinforcement modes. It might be worth a shot but I don't expect it to be a big help. Bass traps and subwoofer placement probably offers your best hope.

Good luck and let us know how it goes. In fact you should keep good notes on this project. It will be a project. Go slow and enjoy the trip.

Sparky

Edited to add detail.

[EastCoaster]

Good luck and let us know how it goes. In fact you should keep good notes on this project. It will be a project. Go slow and enjoy the trip.

Sparky

Edited to add detail.

Hi Sparky,

Thanks for the great post - these are all great suggestions, and I'll try to follow them this weekend. I've already done the "mirror test", and it looks like the side walls may have to be treated... Too bad my audio tower is right by my front left speaker - I'm going to have to do some shifting around...

It's actually not so much the bass that's bugging me - I live in a city apartment, so I keep the sub very low. It's really the way the sound used to be reflected by the wall behind my head - it used to sound like the music was playing inside my head - now it's playing outside, and the difference is palpable...

I wonder if I put up some accoustic screens behind the sofa, whether that will help.. It will be a bugger with my current room situation... Or maybe just sound treatments behind the back left and right...

Are some of these screens "reflective" in nature, rather than "traps"? I'm not sure the sound needs to be dampened, or "trapped", but rather reflected more so that it hits the back of my head... What do you think?

[EastCoaster]

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Interesting update - in playing around tonight, I moved my back left and right closer to me (closer than I ever have, they are now about 3 feet away from my head, from both sides), toed them in a even more, and felt an immediate improvement... If you remember, what I was seeking was having the music play "inside my head"... It really calls for a very odd positioning of the speakers... In fact, I feel odd sitting so close to them, with them facing me from both sides (like wearing "speaker headphones" - it can't be normal!), and yet, along with the front three speakers, and a good SACD, it creates a bubble of sound. It's not yet what I had in my last apartment, but we're getting closer!

It's weird with these 805s - a movement of just a couple of inches here, or there, changes the whole equation with these speakers... I find that if I tilt my head a few inches, the whole spectrum changes... 8O

[Karma]

Howdy all,

If you remember, I was planning on moving between apartments with my 4 x 805s, HTM4 and ASW 825. My old apartment had great acoustics - I felt like I was inside of a warm bubble of sound... My new apartment's acoustics are scary - horrible... Harsh and bright highs, boomy and bouncy bass...

Thanks!

HI East,
The above post indicated severe room problems and a determination on your part to fix them. Now you inform us that you really don't think they are that bad and all you had to do is move your speakers a few inches and your problems are more or less solved. And the bass really is not much of a concern.

Good. Less work and less money. But all of this does make me wonder about your expectations and goals.

You have taught me a lesson. The next time a request like this happens I will ask to find out the requestors ultimate goals so I can aim my reponse better. Thanks. It is always good to learn something each day.

Sparky

[EastCoaster]

HI East,
The above post indicated severe room problems and a determination on your part to fix them. Now you inform us that you really don't think they are that bad and all you had to do is move your speakers a few inches and your problems are more or less solved. And the bass really is not much of a concern.

Good. Less work and less money. But all of this does make me wonder about your expectations and goals.

You have taught me a lesson. The next time a request like this happens I will ask to find out the requestors ultimate goals so I can aim my reponse better. Thanks. It is always good to learn something each day.

Sparky

Hi Sparky - I think you really misunderstood my post (or mis-read it). Where did I say in my post that I "really don't think they are that bad" or that "problems are more or less solved"?

No, nothing is "fixed"... The harshness of the highs is still there, the bass is still muddled, I still don't have my "bubble of sound", etc.

What I did say was that after moving the speakers closer to me (back L&R), I did hear an immediate improvement. But on a scale of one to ten, if before I felt I had a ten, and when I moved in my new apartment I found out I had a four, after playing and futzing and toeing and re-caliberating, I now find out that I've gotten a five. And any any improvement is significant for me right now and makes me extraordinarily happy - and so I thought I'd share it in this thread...

But it's still not where I want to be. I think without question I will need to get room treatments (I can't build walls, or close walls, etc., as I'm renting the apartment).

With respect to the bass, of course it's not good now. Just moving the two 805s closer didn't solve anything - why would it? As you mentioned before, my ASW825 is what I need to be moving around - but what I was saying was that I am less troubled with solving my bass issues right this second, because my use of bass in my apartment is limited anyway (my neighbors would freak out). So I'm going slowly, and trying to fix what I can by moving things around, before I spend a grand on treatments I don't even know will work. I figure, if I can get the arrangement as good as I can first (maybe a "six" or a "seven"), and learn as much as I can on room treatments, then I can start buying some in an informed manner.

I'm curious - what in my post gave you the impression that my problems were solved?

[JKalman]

Try this out for a surround setup, it is fairly typical of the recommended setup offered by most companies producing surround processors nowadays and by B&W.

Soundstage article w/ pics

Here is the B&W advice for setup: B&W surround setup from FAQ

I would close off the kitchen opening, but keep the "L" shape to the room because it will actually probably be helpful in breaking up reverberation. Karma is correct about your room dimensions and low frequency reinforcement between modes, that is going to be an issue. Whether it is an issue with your speakers or only your sub will depend on where you set the crossover point or how how you can set it.

[Grasynoll]

Kalman is right. Board up the kitchen, the music will satisfy your hunger.

[EastCoaster]

Try this out for a surround setup, it is fairly typical of the recommended setup offered by most companies producing surround processors nowadays and by B&W.

Soundstage article w/ pics

Here is the B&W advice for setup: B&W surround setup from FAQ

I would close off the kitchen opening, but keep the "L" shape to the room because it will actually probably be helpful in breaking up reverberation. Karma is correct about your room dimensions and low frequency reinforcement between modes, that is going to be an issue. Whether it is an issue with your speakers or only your sub will depend on where you set the crossover point or how how you can set it.

Thanks Jeff - I appreciate the links. I tried to do a bit more re-arranging last night, and got a bit better results (or maybe it's just my wishful thinking). I gave the speakers more space around them and pushed my sofa in from the center, got rid of a coffee table, and moved the sub. Makes for an odd living room, but sounds a bit better... I ordered some room treatments at a decent price, we'll see what that does to the overall acoustics!