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In general, how do B&W speakers compare to KEF, sonically? Specifically, how does the KEF Reference 207 stack up against the 802D? Has anyone A-B'd them?
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KEF Reference Model 207 vs B&W 802D
KEF Reference Model 207 vs B&W 802D
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I was in SF for two months on a consulting assignment and finally found a store that had the KEF Reference Model 207. The system was driven by McIntosh C-46 and McIntosh MC402 and a one box Mac cd player and lowly Tributaries as cabling with no power conditioning. The sound was awesome like Quads except they did not break up when the going got complex or loud. I had a long extended listen with my own music. I then went across town to a dealer that had the B&W802D driven by Krell 400mcx and Krell preamp and Burmester cdplayer and top of the line Tara and Tara conditioning a lot more information but fatigueing and the mid range was more than a bit recessed.
Now would someone kindly give me a lead to where these speakers are being sold for $6,000?! I have been on the Internet and they are available for $10.600 but the dealer said he would come to my house (in southern California and "shoot" the room with a sound pressure meter to get optimum set up for 12K). I am seriously considering this rather than boxes shipped from New Jesrey for $1,500 less but $6,000 the pair please please please direct me..I am there. I know the KEF Reference is not selling well and it is KEF USA's fault because they do not support this product with advertising as does B&W . For what it is worth Stereoplay the German magazine in '03 ranked the 207 above the Thiel 7.2 , Amati Homage, Wilson Sophia and Dynaudio C4 so if they are discontinued bring it on...Really, I am not review driven but go to the British KEF site and read the reviews from different countries including Japan's product of the year...Kef USA puts the blame on the customers but which came first the chicken or the egg the customer cannot come into the stores to check them out if they are not aware of them.
Yet in every issue of The Absolute Sound and Stereophile you see full page ads for Wilson and B&W etc.
My email address is frank.christopher@earthlink.net and if anyone really knows of these speakers steeply discounted and the source it would be a great kindness. Really it is a five way that can sound like a point source and believe it or not I wanted to like the B&W802D and if you compare the frequency response measurements for both speakers the 802D is nowhere near as linear = neutral as these particular KEFs end of rant.
Thank you in advance to anyone who takes the time to help me out on this one.
Sincerely,
Christopher Frank -
KEF at Ultimate electronics
Before I had made up my mind to get the 802D'S. I stumbled on to a closeout sale on these at Ultimate Electronics in cherry condition 6K. The store nicked ones were 4K. You will have to get in the phone book and call the Ultimate stores to check if a store in your mileage range still has a set.
GleneeComment
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I really don't see how you can compare the two at all, KEF is a significantly different company since it's founders departure,
i think if you see and hear both, it will be a no-brainer
i heard them at ultimate also, but since the best they have is denon or sunfire stuff, how can you compare that to classe or McIntosh driven speakers
like test driving a ferrari with a volkswagon engine
Kef are mass produced by illiterate workers, made for the same buyers that go for Bose
my humble opinion
:-)
KurtComment
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ouch!GregComment
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I am in southern California...I never heard of ultimate anything but if it is true that all they have in the way of amplification is denon and other mid fi it is totally a dis-service to these speakers. As I said I heard them with McIntosh C-46 and McIntosh MC402 and the combination was magic. By the way the same speakers were driven by an all Bryston system at the Home Entertainment show in Los Angeles and to my ears the magic was totally gone...and apropos "made for the same buyers that go for Bose: AHC in the Absolute Sound equated the mid range in the lower model 205 to that in the Dynaudio Temptations (which we also heard at the show and retail for 40K). Have you heard these with proper amplification or just talking trash about them. I also personally know someone who just sold his Temptations and he two likened the mid range of the KEF 207 to his Temptations so what are you talking about...for all the hype of B&W802D there was only one reviewer who picked up that the mid range sounded recessed and it turns out that the speaker's frequency response is not linear with an elevated bass and does reflect a recessed midrange...but lots of top and bottom not just my opionion but a measured factComment
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Ouch!!!Comment
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Someone better jump in quick as the B&W and KEF are being wacked here!!
Kurt where are you!!!
Does the UN stop such defamation here??
Please be kind to B&W guys.. You are reminded that you are on a B&W forum!!
Cheers!!Comment
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Guys please!
Kurt, Christopher,
Please... I just fail to understand the vehemence with which people protect their brands of speakers.
So what if I don't like xyz, B&W or Kef... Why does that set one up for an onslaught of crude remarks or insults?
I personally lusted after the 207's for a long long time and still think that they are just a magnificent pair of speakers. Yes, I do have to agree with the build quality not being as good as it could, but the design behind that speaker is just phenomenal.
Funnily enough, now I lust after the 802D's! Gotta get this out of my system... I just lust lust lust!
But back to the topic... guys, relax... It's all good!
-FauziComment
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Dear Fauzi,
Yes I too fail to understand... but unfortunately I am becoming (through hard experience) all too familiar with the vicious tone of the internet chat guys. I often wonder if they have any life beyond their often factless and baseless blatherings.
This caught me quite by surprise and I felt it to be way over the top "mass produced by illiterate workers, made for the same buyers that go for Bose." I experienced the reply as ignorant.
Mr. McGlendosh asked "how does the KEF Reference 207 stack up against the 802D? Has anyone A-B'd them?" and I just happened to come across his post when I myself was researching the KEFs, so I replied...and BOOM. I am 57 and I am guessing you are close to my age since you remember the KEF 104.7 By the way I just now realized that this is a B&W club sorry I was in no way intending to offend anyone --just stating the facts as I both experienced them and observed measurment -wise. Would you be kind enough to tell me about the build quality not being up to par in your estimation as even at 10K this is quite a bit of money --they weigh 145 pounds each if that says anything...What does the rest of your system consist of. I am asking since you seem to be the only one who knows how FLAT the response is of the KEFs that tells me you are seeking neutrality so I would be curious to learn what the other pieces are that you have as a baseline for your system. Thanks!Comment
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Well
I have to admit, i did make a rather brash statement not thinking about how it would sound , that is the problem with emails, etc, they come across different than what is meant at times,
The point i meant to make, i had seen and listened to them, but, not thru quality amplification, and the point i was meaning to make was that hearing them thru superior source could affect a serious comparison when comparing to ( in my opinion) a far superior speaker such as the 802D being run off consumer grade source
whew, did i get thru that
my other remarks about sub par construction don't seem to be much debated but rather put off as a minor issue, while i hold that to be extremely important in all my component decisions, if it doesnt pass that test, then performance is not considered
i am sure there are many buyers who would be very happy with the Kef, I prefer a rather more refined and i think technologically superior product , made by men and not underpaid 9 year olds in China
OK OK, now see, that's a joke, so take it as one
:-)
good luck, i'll be more careful when posting, especially late at night
regards to all
KurtComment
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Hi Christopher!Originally posted by christopherf
No, I'm not anywhere near 57. Just turned a raw 33! The reason I "remember" the 102.4 and the rest of that series, is because I'm kind of what you would call an audio "history buff." I LOVE LOVE LOVE classic audio gear, and before I got married, used to collect all sorts of stuff. In fact, my current 2 channel system consists of a wonderful pair of Klipschorns that were manufactured in the 30th week of 1974!! :T
Regarding my comments about Kef and build quality. Well, let me qualify a couple things first: First off, I have not spent too much time with the Reference line. I did get a chance to audition the 207's for a few hours, but that was it. However, I have spent extensive times with the entire rest of Kef's current line up, and have been thoroughly disappointed at the build quality... especially that of their "2nd in command" XQ line. Compared to other speakers that I have seen in the 2000 plus range, I feel that there were too many little things wrong with it; far more than can be justified at this price range. And yes, I do think China has something to do with it. Examples: The spikes are not grooved accurately, so putting them in is a tough job. In some of the drivers, there is actually a little bit of "jiggle" between it and the cabinet. All minor QC issues.
However, frankly, these are not such major issues. Christopher, at this stage, I really feel that Kef has lost out to the likes of B&W, and I'll tell you why. Let's not get into the subjective "this speakers sounds much better than that one!" Those discussions get irritating. The main problem that I have currently with Kef is that it exceedingly feels that this company has rested on its laurels of the UniQ for just a tad too long. There was a time, even before the 104 series, that Kef was considered a leader in the field of audio. This was not because their speakers sold in huge numbers. It was because a significant portion of their annual budget was R&D. And they kept introducing new technologies.
So even though you may stand the 207's against ANY speaker at ANY price point and have them hold their own, I really feel that the one intangible asset that Kef used to have, is now no longer included with their products: Pride of being associated with a company dedicated to providing you with the best possible sound today's technology can provide.
B&W - Diamond Tweeters, Rohacell, FST Midrange, Matrix Cabinetry, etc. Wilson Audio - Different cabinet building materials, hand coil windings, Mark Levinson amps in the subs. It's getting late, but I'm sure there are numerous other companies that are driving towards innovative techniques / processes / ideas. Whether they're snake oil or not is yet to be decided.
However, what is certain is that they are always "happening!" Kef has started to become a little dull.
Good luck in your search though. I still think the 207's are a maginificient beast!
Regards,
FauziComment
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I will make this simple I like B&W mid/lower end stuff better and like Kefs midhigh/higher end better I own some of both. IMO with my ears and respect everyones elses opinionBlakeComment
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Hi
never seen or heard the Kef 207. Out of curiosity i checked some on line reviews such as Stereophile magazine ;
" The 207 is the best-sounding design to use KEF's Uni-Q driver array that I have heard, and competes head-on with such high-performance designs as the speakers listed above, as well as B&W's Nautilus 801 and Signature 800 and the Revel Ultima Studio. While my ultimate preference would be for the slightly less expensive Wilson and Revel designs, the big, beautiful-looking KEF is still a speaker I could live with for a long time. Highly recommended."
for the entire review please check :http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/775/
Eliav:T SocratComment
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I just bought a pair of B&W 802D's, but they are to big,they retail at $12,000 will someone pay me $6000 for them today
I just bought a pair of KEF 207's, They retail at $15,000, will someone pay me $7500 for them today
which to you think would elicite more activity
case closed
read the B&W 802D review, here is a snippet'
the 802D represents the cutting edge of modern speaker technology in terms of driver design, cabinet construction, and laboratory analysis, in addition to its exquisite fit and finish. The result, due in no small part to the extraordinary smoothness of the new diamond tweeter and its integration with the other drive-units, is a speaker that is remarkably transparent and detailed throughout the audible range. Given a couple of hundred clean watts behind it, the 802D has no significant performance limits in terms of dynamics or resolution.
I try to restrict the speakers I review to those that interest me and that I can afford, and sometimes I question whether I should replace my current references. The 802D is pretty much at the outer limit of what I can afford, but it has forced just such a consideration.
I'm sorry, i hate snotty sounding forum posts, but if you want to make a case for KEF, you better go to a KEF forum,
oh, and you might also know, one of the stereophiles reviewers who is a member here, bought 802D's
KurtComment
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Kurt[/QUOTE]
Kurt, I don't know if your post was referring to mine. I am very much familiar with the 802d, as I own a pair myself. I was trying to help/ answer the forum member in finding some information about those speakers (Kef) which I have never auditioned nor seen before.
I respect the fact that YOU don't read reviews on products you can't afford or are not within YOUR range of interests, I guess not everyone is like you. I hope you respect this.
I think that the question about Kef Vs. B&W is relevant to this forum, and so is the quote from stereophile.
BTW, I also hope this is not another "snotty" post you "hate".. :lol:
Eliav:T SocratComment
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Eliav
I'm not sure what to say, i was apologizing in my earlier post, my last post was to make a point i felt relevent, read the 2 reviews, there is not much in either other than the fact the 802D, ( which i own also ) seems to be regarded much higher by the respective reviewers, can you name one reviewer of any magazine who has KEF speakers in there reference system
let's end the snotty stuff , that i started, i was wrong to be so strong about MY perceptions of that product, i meant it to be informative and not an attack, my approach was sophmoric at best, i should try and be more polite in posts
i have a relatively good excuse, as i am daily conversing with scholars and collectors pertaining to another hobby of mine, i deal with a lot of Japanese , and they tend to be very strong and to the point, words are not sugar coated so to speak, it rubs off on me
as a side note, i'm not sure where you got the " i can't afford thing from"i think i will be wise and refrain from that one, other than the fact i have a few items hanging on a rack in my home office that if sold would buy 20 of your systems and leave room for a big tip
let's just get along, and maybe we should both lay off the red meat
:-)
Kurt
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Originally posted by kurtholz
Ok Kurt, no bad feelings. From my stand point -case closed :^x:T SocratComment
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I would like to say this, everyones taste is diffrent and we as peolpe are different and we should respect each others opinions. I don't think Kef is superior or B&W they sound different it's all about what you like and what you will spend to get it bottom line. Both of these companies are getting rich off of us and thats o.k. but lets not disrespect each other over their products. I know there's alot of others who would like to post their opinions but won't because they don't like the Vs' type of threads because of the personel shots at people.BlakeComment
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I had a pair of 104/7 as hand-me-downs from Dad. I loved them! But then I got N802 and never looked back.
Frankly my impression of Kef vs B&W is that B&W continued to innovate with the kevlar dome then the Nautilus enclosure and now diamond tweeters while Kef stayed stuck in the past. The last I saw of Kef a couple of years ago was some low-grade egg-shaped speaker they were targetting at startup 5.1 systems. I didn't know they made anything good these days.Comment
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