I sit too far away from my speakers..i think i like it!

[tboooe]

due to some domestic demands I had to re-arrange my temporary listening room. i am currently in the living room which is 20' x 16'. my speakers are now on the short wall, with almost 7' spacing between them. due to a variety of reasons (i.e. wife) my listening position has to be between 15' to 17' away from the speakers. at first i thought this would be a major problem but i am actually pleased with the current configuratoin. the music seems more cohesive. it is as if by being so far away, the sound has a chance to properly align themselves before reaching my ears (i am sure that sounded pathetically non scientific). the sound is very smooth with a bit more fullness to it. all in all, the sound is very pleasing. of course i give up a bit of stereo separation and the sensation of a wide soundstage.

even though things are pretty good, i would like to ask this forum's advice about how to deal with situations where the listening position is far away. what should i consider? what are some things i can do to optimize this less then optimal setup?

[Karma]

HI tboooe,
This is one of things where there is no pat answer. B&W's stance is the listening distance should be equal to the separation between the speakers. That's probably a good starting point. In your case that would be about 15 to 17 feet. That is very wide and I don't think it would work well. But you never know. There are so many variables in the average room that blanket statements are dangerous.

Here is how I do it. Just one man's opinion. I start with the speakers obviously too close together. Then I listen carefully to the image and soundstage. Once I have a solid handle on the spacial presentation, I start moving the speakers further apart about a foot at a time. I listen carefully after each move.

Typically, the soundstage will deepen and become more focused at a certain point. Make note of the distance. Don't stop yet, keep moving them. A point will be reached where the soundstage looses depth and focus. Make note of that point too. This defines the outer limit of separation. Then I move the speakers closer together while at the same time adjusting the toe-in to keep the speakers pointed at a common target. You should find a sweet spot which is usually a fairly small range of separation distances.

Now you are getting close to the goal. Further optimization should be possible by experimenting with the toe-in and the distance from the rear wall. This whole thing is an iterative process that usually can not be acconplished in one afternoon. It usually takes me about a month making small adjustments before I become bored with the process.

Think of the whole exercise in photographic terms. You are focusing the sound field. That is the goal.

Sparky

[Eliav]

HI tboooe,
This is one of things where there is no pat answer. B&W's stance is the listening distance should be equal to the separation between the speakers. That's probably a good starting point. In your case that would be about 15 to 17 feet. That is very wide and I don't think it would work well. But you never know. There are so many variables in the average room that blanket statements are dangerous.

Here is how I do it. Just one man's opinion. I start with the speakers obviously too close together. Then I listen carefully to the image and soundstage. Once I have a solid handle on the spacial presentation, I start moving the speakers further apart about a foot at a time. I listen carefully after each move.

Typically, the soundstage will deepen and become more focused at a certain point. Make note of the distance. Don't stop yet, keep moving them. A point will be reached where the soundstage looses depth and focus. Make note of that point too. This defines the outer limit of separation. Then I move the speakers closer together while at the same time adjusting the toe-in to keep the speakers pointed at a common target. You should find a sweet spot which is usually a fairly small range of separation distances.

Now you are getting close to the goal. Further optimization should be possible by experimenting with the toe-in and the distance from the rear wall. This whole thing is an iterative process that usually can not be acconplished in one afternoon. It usually takes me about a month making small adjustments before I become bored with the process.

Think of the whole exercise in photographic terms. You are focusing the sound field. That is the goal.

Sparky

Hi
I did pretty much what Karma has suggested with one difference, my starting point was following a formula (an empiric one for any given size rectangular room) where the distance from the wall behind the speaker is Room width X0.447, the distance from side walls was Room Width X 0.276.
My sitting position starts at a distance which exactly equals the distance between the two speakers, then I started toeing in, out, and move the speakers as Karma did. It takes a while to find the sweet spot,which I think is a very individual one, for example at a certain point the soundstage is so wide yet not that deep, at another point it is holograhic but not too wide, and so forth. Take your time, I actually enjoy exploring how minute changes in speakers position produces a significant changes in sound preception.

Cheers
Eliav

[purplepeople]

Sounds like the speakers are now against one of the long walls with 7' between them and you are sitting against the opposite long wall.

If you had them along a short wall before and were sitting closer, you probably had a lot of late reflections coming from the back wall plus a number of 1st and 2nd reflections coming from the side walls. With the new set-up, the side reflections are not only more delayed, but much more off-axis and lower SPL. In addition, sitting so close to the back wall minimizes the reflection delay down to a nearly imperceptible millisecond.

As for sweet spot, I usually start with the standard set early on by Dolby and followed up by Holman (et al.). That is, the front mains and main listening position should sit at the points of an equilateral triangle. In your example the speakers would normally be another 7' or so apart.

ensen.

[Karma]

Good Morning All,
Good info, keep it coming!!

I want to talk about toe-in for a moment and how it relates to focus. Tweeters are very directional. If you ever have a chance to see the angular frequency response of a typical tweeter plotted on polar coordinates it will scare the hell out of you. Even the best tweeters have a very small angle centered on the on axis angle (0 degrees) where the response is flat. Move away from the 0dB axis and the response falls off quickly. This becomes even more important if your listening position is in the near field as is mine and many others because of small listening rooms.

This behavior is critical when adjusting toe-in for best image focus. If you have the tweeter angle adjusted off axis with respect to the target ear, the image may become fragmented and loose focus. This is because every musical sound is composed of a basic tone (the note being played) and a series of high frequency harmonics that can go very high in frequency.

The structure of the harmonic series essentially defines the timbre of the sound. It is what makes a violin sound different that a trumpet or cymbals or a viola. If the toe-in is not adjusted properly your ears will not be on the tweeter axis, thus, creating a sound where the fundamental note is fine but the high frequency harmonics are reduced in volume. Effectively, you have a treble tone control. Often, speaker angles are aimed away from perfect alignment because the tweeters are too bright. B&W tweeters don't need this kind of cheating. They are very smooth and natural.

If the speakers are not toed in at EXACTLY the same angles, the harmonic response will be different in each speaker and, thus, for each ear. This will cause a spatial position shift for the high frequency virtual stereo image. The image will disassociate from a single point in space to one that is blurred. Your mind will have a hard time reconstructing the image.

We are discussing only toe-in. Room acoustics in the form of sound being reflected back to the listening position plays an important secondary role in keeping the image focused. Not only do reflections need to be controlled but the symmetry of the reflections are important. Basically, anything that affects the symmetry of the virtual stereo frequency response will play into the precision of the image focus.

Sparky

[JimTW]

Quick question...

When you guys say "distance from speaker" should equal "distance between the
speakers"... is the "distance from speaker" the distance from the listener to the
imaginary line between the 2 speakers? Or the distance from the listener directly
to one of the speakers?

Tks!

[Karma]

HI Jim,
The general rule is that the speaker to listener to opposite speaker forms an equilateral triangle. Remember, this is just a starting point.

Sparky

[JimTW]

HI Jim,
The general rule is that the speaker to listener to opposite speaker forms an equilateral triangle. Remember, this is just a starting point.

Sparky

Ohhh okay, so a perfect triangle were all the sides have same length
as a starting point... gotcha! And the speakers should be toe'ed in
but pointing at an opject several feet behind listener right?

Tks Sparky!

[Karma]

HI JIm,
The idea is have them pointing at the assigned ear; left speaker to left ear and right to right. If they are actually aimed that way, the tweeter axis from each speaker will intersect behind the head. An appropriate intersection point is easier to aim at than our ears so that is why it is stated that way.

Sparky

[asrovnal]

Another way to set up the triangle is to measure the distance between your L and R speaker and sit back 1.5X that measurement. Speakers six feet apart sit back nine feet. Then toe in the speakers as above. I measure the in side corner and rotate the out side corner about 1 1/2 inches diference seems to work for me.

[purplepeople]

I set toe in to point at my head (ears) when sitting farthest back. For instance, even though you might listen to your gear leaning forward, you should aim when leaned back against the sofa. This helps ensure there is direct line of sight between the drivers and your ears.

Another reason you might like the current set-up is because the long wall behind the speakers doesn't lift the bass as much as having them in the corners of a short wall. In many cases, there is just too much mid-bass due to walls and that can muddy things up a bit. Try moving the speakers away from the wall another foot and see if that tightens things up a little bit more.

ensen.

[DavidB]

When I get my 802D's I should be sitting 15' away and the speakers will be 15' apart id that okay or is it taking the equilateral triangle too far?

[Karma]

HI David,
The equilateral triangle is just a starting point. You have to start somewhere. What you eventualy end up with will depend on what sounds best in your room. Experiment and trust your ears.

If you have read this whole thread you know there are different ways to go about the setup. They will all work. What works best for you must be discovered.

You will get no blanket statements form me. I know better.

Sparky