A B&W "Sweet Spot"

[EastCoaster]

Hi 'yall,

I was wondering whether you've had experiences where you set-up your speaker system in a very, very precise and measured way, and then found out that you had a "sweet spot" where the music was undeniably, unabashedly, uncompromisingly AMAZING - and that outside of that sweet spot, the music was great, but not like it is inside the sweet spot?

In my current set-up of four 805S/HTM4 I find myself having about ten inches or so of space within which I'm in absolute heaven, but when I step out of that sweet spot, it's just not the same. Mind you, I'm not complaining when I'm out of the sweet spot, but when I'm IN it, it's unbelievably good... :B

When I was perusing reviews online I came across the following (describing the N804, but suggestive of what my experience is with the 805S!):

"The second problem I had with the 804 involved placement, not their placement but mine! I noticed that by simply moving my listening position a few inches left or right, forward or back, the tonality and imaging of the B&W changed dramatically. After much experimentation I hit upon the ideal spot with soloists anchored dead centre, tonality as even as possible and the soundstage at its deepest, but this effectively led to the exclusion of the rest of my family. This isn’t so much of a problem with movie soundtracks as they enlist the aid of a centre loudspeaker to anchor events to the screen for off-axis viewers, but I’d like to think that ideally the B&W could be used in a dual-purpose music/movies role" (find the whole review here: http://www.smr-group.co.uk/reviews/nautilus_03.html)

Again, I'm not complaining! I actually like the fact that I have MY SPOT, and that outside of it things just aren't the same... :T But I am fascinated by how narrow this sweet spot is (I've never had it quite so small, and yet quite so good!) and would appreciate other peoples' insights! Thanks!

[Karma]

HI East,
Very few if any speakers have a sweet spot wider than a few (2 or 3) inches. Outside of those limits the image starts to suffer, the soundstage collapses, and the tonal balance of the sound is negatively affected. I have learned to expect this effect and I use it to optimize the imaging and soundstaging. I know that you hear folks claiming larger sweet spots but I've never heard it. When you think about what is going on it's understandable.

I think of setting up the sweet spot in photographic terms. What you are doing is focusing the sound field. Not from one speaker but two. You have to get both channels (assuming stereo) working exactly in unison and it is very critical. Symetry is the key. Both speakers must be the same distance from your ears, both should be aimed at the same angles using toe in, and you ear height should line up with the tweeters. Measure CAREFULLY. Don't approximate.

Think of the tweeters as being flashlights aimed at you. Your job is to get them aimed in the right direction. In fact, sometimes I actually use a flashlight with a focused beam for this purpose. Distance is very important because we want to get the phasing from each speaker exactly in phase at your ears. Equal distance is another key. This is an activity where being anal is good.

Sparky

[tboooe]

Great post. I am in the process of buying some Chesky test cd's in the hopes of helping me figure out the sweetspot for my current setup. I hear these cd's help tremendously i quickly determining the optimal setup.

[EastCoaster]

I think of setting up the sweet spot in photographic terms. What you are doing is focusing the sound field. Not from one speaker but two. You have to get both channels (assuming stereo) working exactly in unison and it is very critical. Symetry is the key. Both speakers must be the same distance from your ears, both should be aimed at the same angles using toe in, and you ear height should line up with the tweeters. Measure CAREFULLY. Don't approximate.

Sparky

Hi Sparky - that's great! And yes, I did measure and fuss with putting the speakers JUST right... In my set-up, I have the center, and two back L&R so my sweet spot is literally a bubble of sound sorrounding me all around... Add to that a good SACD, and it's like the music is literally playing inside my body... Just incredible. What I didn't realize, though, is how constricted the sweet spot is!

[Karma]

HI East,
It sounds like you did it the right way and it worked!! That's great. B&W speakers image so well that it's definitely worth the effort. It is amazing how important tiny adjustments are.

Many folks try to widen the sweet spot to include two very friendly people. That can be done but at the expense of getting a really solid optimized image. For HT the point is moot becaue of the center channel is intended to address this very issue. But stereo music is entirely dependent upon the virtual image and it is fragile.

BTW, have you noticed how often pictures of audiophiles systems include the required masking tape around the speaker bases? You just know how they are spending their free time. I'm tempted to advise that they get a life except that IS their life!! Mine too.

Maybe you post will help point others in the right direction (pun 8) ).

Sparky

[EastCoaster]

HI East,
It sounds like you did it the right way and it worked!! That's great. B&W speakers image so well that it's definitely worth the effort. It is amazing how important tiny adjustments are.

Many folks try to widen the sweet spot to include two very friendly people. That can be done but at the expense of getting a really solid optimized image. For HT the point is moot becaue of the center channel is intended to address this very issue. But stereo music is entirely dependent upon the virtual image and it is fragile.

BTW, have you noticed how often pictures of audiophiles systems include the required masking tape around the speaker bases? You just know how they are spending their free time. I'm tempted to advise that they get a life except that IS their life!! Mine too.

Maybe you post will help point others in the right direction (pun 8) ).

Sparky

Hi Sparky, oh yes, it worked beyond my wildest... But there are so many variables to consider... Last night I tried to fidget with some things and "lost" my sweet spot, and then stayed up until midnight "getting it back"! :W I also set the receiver for speakers on "small", but boy, that just totally ruins things! (if I remember correctly, lots of people on here set their speakers to "small", but I'm not sure why after hearing what that does to mine..."

By the way, what do you set the low-pass frequency to? 60Hz? Low-pass filter to "in", and Phase switch to "0"? Hmmm.. My receiver is "demanding" for me to tell him what setting to use (options are "40", "60" and "80" I believe, along with "THX".....)

I know everyone's taste is different, and it depends on the content, but given a wide variety, what settings do you think work best for the 805S set-up that I have? (4 X 805, HTM4, ASW700 that's a bit far from the speakers, small room, Yamaha Receiver, etc.). I've already made plans to switch out the 700 with the ASW825...

[Karma]

HI East,
For movies I set the processor LFE filter at 40Hz. That's the closest I can get to 45Hz. For music I bypass the processor and set the subs low pass filter to 45Hz. Actually the subs low pass filter is always enabled and set for 45Hz. The only reason I enable the LFE filter is to help preserve the 805's during very heavy movie bass passages. For music very heavy bass is so rare that I don't feel bad about not providing the protection of a filter.

For movies I have all the speakers set to large and full frequency range. In other words bass is delivered to all speakers unaltered. The sub only handles the LFE channel.

One thing is sure true. HT is a lot more complicated than stereo to set up. I'm still learning but starting to get a handle on it.

Sparky

[JimTW]

Eastcoaster and Karma,

I know sound and music are very subjective to each individual's ears.
But, is there a methodical, technical, procedural method to achieve a
first attempt at configuring the sweet spot? (And then do minor adjustments
according to what the ears hear?) Thinking about my questions, it
probalby is very difficult to say, especially everyone has different room
configuration and sizes etc. But, still want to hear your opinion and how
you initially set it up.

Tks.

[RobP]

HI East,
For movies I set the processor LFE filter at 40Hz. That's the closest I can get to 45Hz. For music I bypass the processor and set the subs low pass filter to 45Hz. Actually the subs low pass filter is always enabled and set for 45Hz. The only reason I enable the LFE filter is to help preserve the 805's during very heavy movie bass passages. For music very heavy bass is so rare that I don't feel bad about not providing the protection of a filter.

For movies I have all the speakers set to large and full frequency range. In other words bass is delivered to all speakers unaltered. The sub only handles the LFE channel.

One thing is sure true. HT is a lot more complicated than stereo to set up. I'm still learning but starting to get a handle on it.

Sparky

Sparky, I would suggest that you set your speakers to the "small" mode, you should only use the large mode on true full range speakers. This will help your speakers last alot longer, also you may want to set your LFE crossover setting a little higher than 40hz, those 805's will thank you for it.

[EastCoaster]

Eastcoaster and Karma,

I know sound and music are very subjective to each individual's ears.
But, is there a methodical, technical, procedural method to achieve a
first attempt at configuring the sweet spot? (And then do minor adjustments
according to what the ears hear?) Thinking about my questions, it
probalby is very difficult to say, especially everyone has different room
configuration and sizes etc. But, still want to hear your opinion and how
you initially set it up.

Tks.

For me, it was pretty easy. Measuring tape, and making sure the distance between the front L&R was the same as the distance to me sitting on my sofa. Then, I toed these two babies in so that the tweeter is aimed right at my face. The back L&R were harder, because they needed to be by my sofa arms (no room behind). There, I again made sure I sit equidistant from both, that both are on the same line as my front L&R, and both are facing ME (i.e., not facing the front L&R). My center is smack in between the front L&R, and again, directly infront of me. Most importantly I found that having all the same speakers (i.e., 4 X 805S and HTM4, which is basically an 805S on its side) really creates seamless tonality.

Unlike Soundgravy's advice and similar to Sparky, I set my 805S to "Large", which I found provide me with the full range these speakers are able to output. When I set them to "Small", I lost much of what was making me vibrate in my seat with excitement! I have a very small listening room, and so the 805's are uniquely adapted for the job. I do have to say, that with a good SACD recording, as I've mentioned before, the sweet spot and what I hear in it is other-worldly...

[EastCoaster]

Sparky, I would suggest that you set your speakers to the "small" mode, you should only use the large mode on true full range speakers. This will help your speakers last alot longer, also you may want to set your LFE crossover setting a little higher than 40hz, those 805's will thank you for it.

Robert, has anyone tried to quantify the loss in terms of "speaker years" on this kind of stuff? That would be really interesting (i.e., you get 10 years on "large" versus 20 years on "small", etc.).

[RobP]

Robert, has anyone tried to quantify the loss in terms of "speaker years" on this kind of stuff? That would be really interesting (i.e., you get 10 years on "large" versus 20 years on "small", etc.).

Hmmm.. That would be a good study, of course it wouldn't be sponsored by any speaker company, they would want you to replace your speakers as often as you could. :
I know that when I used to have 805's for my mains, I tried the large setting with my low pass set at 60hz ,and in big cinematic transients the VC's would bottom out. Once the frequency goes lower than that port is tuned to, the control of that driver diminishes very quickly which causes such things. Now in doing this a driver will go quickly. Even now with my 803's I have the speakers set at small for they are not even "full range". But I do have a VERY capable subwoofer that is fast and powerful enough to take up the slack so no sound quality or quantity is lost. It actually makes the whole system open up and helps in a wider deeper soundstage for both 2 channel and movies.

[EastCoaster]

Hmmm.. That would be a good study, of course it wouldn't be sponsored by any speaker company, they would want you to replace your speakers as often as you could. :
I know that when I used to have 805's for my mains, I tried the large setting with my low pass set at 60hz ,and in big cinematic transients the VC's would bottom out. Once the frequency goes lower than that port is tuned to, the control of that driver diminishes very quickly which causes such things. Now in doing this a driver will go quickly. Even now with my 803's I have the speakers set at small for they are not even "full range". But I do have a VERY capable subwoofer that is fast and powerful enough to take up the slack so no sound quality or quantity is lost. It actually makes the whole system open up and helps in a wider deeper soundstage for both 2 channel and movies.

Interesting! And when you say "in doing this a driver will go quickly" - how quickly would that be?

I think for the most part I don't listen to my set-up at bone jarring sound levels - I'm just not comfortable with that in my small space with neighbors all around - instead of concentrating on enjoying the music, I find myself irrationally (or rationally) fretting about whether people are slowly going nuts in the apartment next door.... I'm hoping that will keep the 805s in good shape for a few years (or until I move to a larger space!).

[RobP]

Interesting! And when you say "in doing this a driver will go quickly" - how quickly would that be?

Well, that would depend on much the speaker is overdriven. I have repaired drivers that were done in over a weekend at a club. High levels, clipped signals = heated VC's. Heck I have a few sitiing here that are completely frozen up.

[EastCoaster]

Well, that would depend on much the speaker is overdriven. I have repaired drivers that were done in over a weekend at a club. High levels, clipped signals = heated VC's. Heck I have a few sitiing here that are completely frozen up.

Ouch.... Would that be covered under warranty? :W

[RobP]

Ouch.... Would that be covered under warranty? :W

Not with me! I have had some EVs that the factory covered for a couple of times, but after I believe three times your done.

[Karma]

Hi gravy,
I have considered what you are suggesting about setting the crossosover frequency higher. I decided against it for several reasons.

1. For music I don't want a high pass filter in the signal path. The subs are set for 45Hz which gives wonderful integration.
2. My bedroom is pretty small. I really don't stress the speakers very often if one can judge this by distortion. It doesn't happen. The 805s's go very loud and clean.
3. My experience with B&W tells me that they are very rugged designs. When I had my repair shop my bench monitors were B&W 601i's. In spite of heavy use and abuse, the speakers sailed through with no probelms. I still have them and they are as good as new.
4. I'm willing to chance failure if the risk pays off with better sound. That is the choice I am making.

It is certainly possible to blow any speaker. I've fixed hundreds. But very few B&W's. Their track record is even more impressive when you consider that I had a professional repair relationship with the areas largest B&W dealer. I repaired all their non-warranty B&W's. I'm glad I didn't have to depend on B&W repairs for my main income. I would have starved. They are tough.

Sparky

[RobP]

:T Sounds like you have all of your bases covered there Sparky!

[EastCoaster]

HI East,
For movies I set the processor LFE filter at 40Hz. That's the closest I can get to 45Hz. For music I bypass the processor and set the subs low pass filter to 45Hz.

Sparky

Sparky, why not just let the processor take command, set it to 40Hz or 60Hz, and set the Low Pass Filter to "out"? (I understand if Low Pass Filter on the Sub is "out" then it disables the sub's Hz gauge.)

[Karma]

HI East,
I could do that but there is no need. It is not convenient to switch the filter settings every time I want to listen to music or watch a movie. Remember, the subs LP filter setting is the one I use for music and the one that gives the best integration. For music, the processor is not even turned on so I am completely dependant on the subs filter and it is set for 45Hz.

The difference between the two settings is inconsequential. It is only 5Hz which is 1/9th of an octave. Not worth talking about especially for movies.

Sparky

[EastCoaster]

HI East,
I could do that but there is no need. It is not convenient to switch the filter settings every time I want to listen to music or watch a movie. Remember, the subs LP filter setting is the one I use for music and the one that gives the best integration. For music, the processor is not even turned on so I am completely dependant on the subs filter and it is set for 45Hz.

The difference between the two settings is inconsequential. It is only 5Hz which is 1/9th of an octave. Not worth talking about especially for movies.

Sparky

Hi Sparky,

Maybe this is a dumb question, but what did you mean when you said "processor"? Maybe I missed something - did you mean "receiver"? What I do on my set-up (which includes a receiver) is set the receiver to "subwoofer only", and the crossover to 80. Then on the subwoofer I'm Low Pass Filter "Off" (and no need to set Hz because the dial isn't working if low pass filter is set to "off"). To be honest, I typically feel good with this on both movies and music (there's less LFE in music), except on some content when I get up and turn up the volume a bit... Should I reconsider?