Am I sitting too close?

[tboooe]

After trying a variety of different speaker positions and short of doing any room treatments, I have found that I prefer to sit the same distance away from the speakers as the distance between the speakers (about 5 ft). In other words, I have formed an equilateral triangle between the speakers and my listening position. For some reason, the music sounds fuller and I get a much more consistent central image. The soundstage seems deeper to me as well. And because i am closer, the soundstage seems to increase dramatically. Even in the B&W manual they state that a good starting configuration is an equilateral triangle. If B&W suggest this it must be legitimate right?

Some people have told me that i am too close. Am I nuts?

As an aside, can someone explain why the soundstage seems to start higher the closer i get to the speakers? When I place myself almost directly in between the speakers, the central soundstage seems to be coming from 5 feet above my head.

[Stockinv]

Have you tried to move the speakers farther apart and moving back accordingly? The equilateral triangle idea is good. See if it still works for you
when you move the speakers a few more feet apart.

[tboooe]

stockinv: thank you for the response. unfortunately, I cannot move my speakers any further apart due to room limitations.

[Karma]

HI tboooe,
Sitting that close puts you into what is known as the "nearfield". It can work great if you set it up right. The upside is the direct sound from the speakers tend to dominate the room sound. In a small room this is generally good. I usually like nearfield listening because I'm am a detail and image freak. But, 5 feet is close even for my tastes. You do what you can do.

However, in a large room, the room sound increases the general ambiance if you sit further away. I boils down to type of music you prefer. Small scale music like folk, chamber, jazz, etc. is usually best served by nearfield listening. Large scale music like symphonies, opera, and rock usually like increased distances.

As somebody wisely said, the rules are there to break.

Sparky

[rav934]

with 804s.....

I think 5 ft is my preferred listening distance too (speakers about 6 ft apart and 3.5 ft from front wall). Also, try sitting lower. Have your ears below the tweeter. I find my kids bean bag chairs ideal for listening in close and lower. More to come....new Musical Fidelity equipment arrives next week.

[JKalman]

My speakers are 6.33333333 feet apart and I sit about 8 feet back with the speakers toed in. I'm limited by my room dimensions unfortunately. I would prefer to have the speakers further apart but they are 4 feet from the front wall and only 3 feet from the side walls. I would like them to be 4 feet from the sidewalls but then they will only be 4.3 feet apart and I would also have to sit closer. I would like to have the speakers around 10 feet apart... When my kids get older I'll be able to transform their playroom into a better listening space, but until then I have to make do with the space I'm in.

I do have it set up like a triangle, but not equilateral since I sit further away from the speakers than they sit between each other. I'll be playing around with that soon enough though. I only recently got a chance to move the speakers 6.3 feet apart from each other, I previously did have them only 4.3 feet apart. This did fix some recordings where the vocals were diffuse but ultimately I felt too close to the speakers which didn't allow the instruments to separate as much as I would have liked.

One thing I do need is some professional room treatment. I'm planning on getting some consulting eventually. I definitely think the room could use some work and that this would really improve the sound of my system significantly.

[jim777]

tboooe, if you are nuts, I am too !! My speakers are 5'8" apart.

My seating is on the back wall, where I sit most of the time, but it isn't the best place.

If I listen to a well recorded album, the best sound is at the "equilateral triangle spot". A few inches more or less and it doesn't sound as good...

I would love to have a been bag too because if you are lower, it is like a show where the music comes from the stage and you are in the 5th row

[RebelMan]

tboooe, The general rule for optimal speaker placement is between 6 and 8 feet apart with the listener positioned equidistant from each speaker, thus forming an equilateral triangle, and each toed inward about 10 to 20 degrees. Moving beyond these recommended boundaries may not yield the type of results one might expect. I believe you are already familiar with the reasons why. However you may be unaware that first-order crossovers used in the B&W 800 series are fussy about the listener's position in relation to them.

First-order crossovers produce a considerable amount of overlap between drivers. This can cause dips in the frequency response if the listener's ears are situated at different distances with respect to the speaker's drivers. The outputs between adjacent drivers can combine causing destructive interference and irregular response in amplitude. The adverse effects of this are a reduction in imaging and soundstaging. The speaker becomes noticed rather than disappear. Therefore, the listener should sit farther away from loudspeakers containing first-order crossovers to give the sounds radiating from the individual drivers more time to properly integrate.

If domestic constraints will not permit you to widen the distance between each speaker, then a favorable compromise should be to move your listening position further back and relax inward toe.

[Pieter]

When my kids get older I'll be able to transform their playroom into a better listening space, but until then I have to make do with the space I'm in.

Jeff, how 'bout letting the Merc and Lotus sleep outside, then convert the garage to an audio den.

[Pieter]

However you may be unaware that first-order crossovers used in the B&W 800 series are fussy about the listener's position in relation to them.

True, very true. Not only with regard to distance from the speaker, but to ear level in relation to speaker height. Very finicky.

[JKalman]

Jeff, how 'bout letting the Merc and Lotus sleep outside, then convert the garage to an audio den.

I believe if I were to do such, I would be the one sleeping outside, with my wife in the house and all the doors locked. :

[tboooe]

rebelman, thanks for the detailed response though I must admist I have no idea what you are talking about with first order crossovers, etc. So the bottom line, if my speakers are 5 ft apart, you think I should about 6-8 feet back with little or no toe in? Not that I am questioning you but I wonder why B&W suggest a 5ft equilateral triangle as a starting point?

thanks again!

[JKalman]

Not that I am questioning you but I wonder why B&W suggest a 5ft equilateral triangle as a starting point?

You have to start somewhere... You might find you like how powerful the soundstage becomes when they are 5 feet apart as opposed to 6-8 feet apart. With bad recordings, sometimes vocals can become diffuse as you widen the soundstage, e.g. The Doors albums often have these problems I notice.

[RebelMan]

rebelman, thanks for the detailed response though I must admist I have no idea what you are talking about with first order crossovers, etc. So the bottom line, if my speakers are 5 ft apart, you think I should about 6-8 feet back with little or no toe in? Not that I am questioning you but I wonder why B&W suggest a 5ft equilateral triangle as a starting point?

If you can maintain the equilateral triangle then that should provide you with the optimal response. However, when compromises are unavoidable one need’s to decide what tradeoffs will have the least negative impact. In your case this tradeoff is between the angle of incidence the sound waves reach your ears versus the distance between your listening position and the speaker drivers.

Crossovers are defined by their cut-off frequencies and corresponding slopes. The cut-off frequency is the transition point from one driver to the next. The slope determines the rate at which the frequency is attenuated. First-order crossovers have a 6dB/octave slope which simply means that for a given cutoff frequency the response of the signal going from one driver to the next will be halved at the next octave. Speakers utilizing higher-order crossovers have cut-off frequencies that have steeper slopes, i.e., they attenuate faster. Because the transition between drivers is shallow with first-order crossovers adjacent drive units will be producing the same frequencies. Dynamic drivers need time to for the sounds they create to coalesce before reaching the listener’s ears. Speakers that use first-order crossovers are more sensitive to this and therefore usually require more separation from the listener for the best results.

Since your room limits you from establishing a speaker spread of more than five feet apart you are left with just a couple of choices. One, keep the status quo or two, move your seating position further back. Maintaining equal distances between each speaker and speakers to listener can be beneficial but it is not necessary to achieve good results. I have typically found a 20 degree angle of incidence to work well. This would put your seating position approximately 7 feet 4 inches from each speaker. You may need to fine tune this position to locate the sweet spot where the music snaps into focus and sounds best. Keep your speakers stationary and with zero toe in while you do this.

Once you have established a good location from which to listen then you adjust toe. Toe works better with some speakers and less with others. In the case of the B&W’s, and other directional tweeters, aiming the tweeter’s “line of sight” slightly behind the listener’s ears works best. In your case, 15 degrees of toe should put the tweeter about two feet behind your head. Again you may need to make some slight adjustments to achieve the right mix of mid and high frequency balance, sound-stage focus and spaciousness.

Finally, be certain that your listening height approaches the tweeter’s vertical axis when making the above adjustments. Use an adjustable task chair if necessary to locate the right balance. Tonal balance between the midband and treble response is greatly impacted by this.