803s - what component will improve sound the most?

[grit]

Hope this is ok for the B&W thread. I need the experience of people who have (or had) B&W 803s speakers.

I'm considering B&W 803's or 804's (or Aerial 7b's). I currently have all Rotel electronics (120wpc x5 amp, 1068 pre/pro, et al). What I want to know is: if I can upgrade only ONE component, which one will improve the sound (for 2ch music) most? I'm constrained by budget and am trying to decide where to best spend my money. Around $5k is the limit.

Will a Rotel 200wpc amp make a significant difference? What about a Classe or Krell 100wpc amp (x3 channels... need to run the matching center too)?

And what if I left the amp as is, but upgraded the pre-pro to a Krell Showcase or Classe SSP-300 instead?

All of your insight and experience is appreciated!

[Angioguy]

We may both be sitting in the same boat... only I'll be wiring the amp-to-be up to an existing Arcam AV receiver. At first, I was considering a 3 channel power amp for the mains and center channel (HTM4S), I think I'm going for a better two channel for the 803S mains. I am strongly considering the McIntosh MC-402 (400 wpc across the board); a pair of Jeff Rowland 201 monoblock power amps; the Krell KAV 2250; the Mark Levinson No. 431 power amp; and possibly something in a Classe. All things considered, I think I'm leaning toward the Mac. I'm still in the process of listening but will keep you posted!

If you're doing the purely audio-- and not the home theater approach, I suppose you would do well with a separate preamp and power amp.

What about your Rotel-to-803S setup do you like-- and dislike most??

[RebelMan]

grit, the biggest improvement you can make given your choice of 803S's will come from upgrading the pre/pro amplifier. I recommend the Classe' SSP-300 or a Bryston SP2 for your price range and stereo preferences. NONE of the power amplifiers you listed will make the improvement in sound you are looking for and yes I have heard them all.

[grit]

grit, the biggest improvement you can make given your choice of 803S's will come from upgrading the pre/pro amplifier. I recommend the Classe' SSP-300 or a Bryston SP2 for your price range and stereo preferences. NONE of the power amplifiers you listed will make the improvement in sound you are looking for and yes I have heard them all.

I've heard that before and was wondering if it'd be echoed here. My dealer, whom I trust, said the first piece of electronic gear I'd want to upgrade would be the pre-pro, and the LAST would be the amplifiers. For as much as you read about people saying that speakers are "power hungry" and you need to "really feed them" to "get them to sing", I speculated the amp would need to be the first thing to switch out.

So Rebel, I know yer a Bryston fan... any recommendations (Bryston or otherwise) that would be good to push those 803's? I'll even take recommendations outside my price range (gives me something to plan for).

Oh, and to address Angioguy's question: I'm focusing on 2-ch music, but the system will be used to movies also. I just care about how my music sounds FAR more than I care about the movies, and I'm also of the belief that if the 2-ch music sounds good, the 5.1 DD will follow (assuming a matching center channel and amplification).

[caleb]

You can't go wrong with Bryston.

Buy the best you acan afford and remember that it is better to have too much power and not need it than to need it and not have it.

[RebelMan]

So Rebel, I know yer a Bryston fan... any recommendations (Bryston or otherwise) that would be good to push those 803's? I'll even take recommendations outside my price range (gives me something to plan for).

I am a big Bryston fan because I believe in and echo their passion for audio. If you want to maintain similar branding then of course it should be their 4B-SST. It is a two-channel 300 wpc (500 wpc 4 ohm) amplifier. You could make do with the lesser 3B-SST but the bigger brother will give you the extra headroom. There are pleanty of other good quality power amplifiers also, far too many to list. Your Rotel RMB-1075 just to name one. They also look good together.

[DL86]

For a 2 channel amp running those speakers, you could also look at the up-comming rotel RB-1092 digital amplifier (500wpc 8 ohms). For a budget of 5k you could look at getting two of these and bi-amping each speaker since they will retail for $2500.00 an amp. I'm planning on getting one for my paradigm studio 100 v3.

[misterdoggy]

Well this is another of those age old questions. We all know that a system is only as strong as its weakest link. If there are several weak links then IMHO the Amp is the one where you will see the most improvement.

The Amp is the "engine" of the system. Believe me between the Amp and the speakers you will "hear" BIG differences.

If you went Classe or Krell even 100wpc using your 1068 as a preamp you will be pleasantly surprised IMHO. Of course I would rather see you with Classe or Krell 200wpc, but better classe or krell 100wpc than rotel 200wpc.

[Miroku]

Call me crazy but, what about the source? All this hardware is gonna sound like crap on a cheapo CD player... he should get something nice there :T

The preamp then amp should be next imo. I saw a huge difference in sound going from a marantz receiver to an arcam avp700 surround processor. I didnt notice as much improvement when I added my rotel amp.

[grit]

Call me crazy but, what about the source? All this hardware is gonna sound like crap on a cheapo CD player... he should get something nice there :T

The preamp then amp should be next imo. I saw a huge difference in sound going from a marantz receiver to an arcam avp700 surround processor. I didnt notice as much improvement when I added my rotel amp.

I discounted the source because I already have a Rotel 1060 DVD and 1072 CD. Again, music is more my concern, and I'm very happy with my CD player. I figured if I got a better pre-pro, the digital output signal from the DVD would be improved. And if it was a significantly better pre-pro (Classe, Krell, etc.), I could also route the digital out from my CD player through it.

I do plan on upgrading my source at some point, but I'm waiting to see what will happen with HD DVD/Blu-Ray. I'd hate upgrade to universal player/transport now and want to add HD later. In a perfect world, I'd get a dedicated Classe or Krell (etc) CD player now and upgrade the video later.

Still though, it seems that (for stereo at least) a higher end source player would be lost without a better pre-pro to back it up.

[monk_d_syple]

So in conclusion. Pre amp/proc is most important followed by amp? Did I understand correctly? What I don't understand is when some posts have guys with amazing receivers and they add to that power amps, therefore cancelling out the reciever's amps. Why don't people just get pre amps or processors instead of amped receivers? Wouldn't it for 1 be cheaper and also make more sense. I'm asking this because my dealer sold me an average reciever (Denon avr1905) claiming that due to my amps I only needed a decent processor. He claimed that the 1905 was a decent processor but a bad amp. since I'm more of a movie guy should I sell my amps and receiver and get an all in 1 really good receiver or should I venture in pre amp/proc and power amps. I'm not obsessed with loudness, but more with clarity. Big jazz listener. Most of my CDs come from mono tapes, placed on CDs. So either way the quality would be limited. Any advice appreciated.

mono amps 6 musical fidelity monos x-a50
Receiver Denon AVR1905
spkrs B&W 604s and ctr 600

[grit]

Well this is another of those age old questions. We all know that a system is only as strong as its weakest link. If there are several weak links then IMHO the Amp is the one where you will see the most improvement.

The Amp is the "engine" of the system. Believe me between the Amp and the speakers you will "hear" BIG differences.

If you went Classe or Krell even 100wpc using your 1068 as a preamp you will be pleasantly surprised IMHO. Of course I would rather see you with Classe or Krell 200wpc, but better classe or krell 100wpc than rotel 200wpc.

There's something I'm interesting in trying... comparing a Classe or Krell 100wpc to my 1075's 100wpc. I've read that upgrading the pre-pro will offer more of an improvement. I've also read the opposite. I know this all depends on the pre-pro, but in my case, we're talking about the Rotel 1068, so that is a known quantity.

One of my thoughts/concerns is "Dolby Lossless". I'm not so concerned (but it would be nice) about HDMI/video switching (especially with Rotel's upcoming video switcher coming out). However, if my pre-pro doesn't support an upcoming decoding scheme used with Blu-Ray/HD DVD, I'll be hanging out in left field. Can you imagine spending almost $5k on a pre-pro and finding out a year later that you can't listen to your favorite new hi-def movie because the sound format can not be decoded?

[csuzor]

However, if my pre-pro doesn't support an upcoming decoding scheme used with Blu-Ray/HD DVD, I'll be hanging out in left field. Can you imagine spending almost $5k on a pre-pro and finding out a year later that you can't listen to your favorite new hi-def movie because the sound format can not be decoded?

I am beginning to think that pre-pro is a bad concept in itself. My 1068 is hopelessly outclassed by a cheap Sony sacd player for decoding CD. And future HDVD/bluray players will decode the audio themselves...

So why pay for all those unnecessary electronics in a preamp? Especially when some people say that a pure analog multi-channel preamp sounds so much better than pre-pros used as a preamp...

There are a few cases when pre-pro is useful, such as decoding DD from a cable or satellite reception box (which generally have horrible audio output stages). I used to decode CD for mch playback using DTS/DPLII, but when I upgraded my source, I realised that the 1068 colors the sound, so I only use bypass mode now.

This doesn't answer your question, though, which is very interesting: will a preamp or poweramp be a better investment?

[monk_d_syple]

This is exactly the problem I'm having. TV decoding with my receiver for DPLII output. Very crapy sound, same with DD output on DVDs. Although Stereo output is good. should I blame my AVR 1905? It came so cheap, so upgrading wouldn't bother me too much.

[misterdoggy]

One of the best systems I had in the past was with a pair of Hafler 500's powering a pair of infinity's RSIIIb. Huge speakers that weighed a ton. The Haflers came from a recording studio and they kicked butt !!

The interesting thing was that the preamp I was using ONLY controlled the volume and did not interfere with anything. Pure sound from the AMPS. I tried every expensive preamp there was an nothing sounded as good as the preamp that did nothing.

So in this case speakers and the Amp were the workhorses. Of course a good source is important.

It goes back to the age old question what is the weakest link and upgrade there.

Until there are no more upgrades then what do you do ? Listen to the music !!

[Sim reality]

I agree that the pre/pro should do as little as possible (for 2 ch) because even cheap CD player oversample now to correct read errors from the CD and I do not think that the digital out from the cd to the pre/pro is a 2 way communication link so the pre/pro cannot ask the CD player to retransmit packets that have errors on them to correct it.

For DD and DTS I think asking the DVD to decode it might be asking a little too much given most of the money they have allocated to the DVD player has to be used to pay for the video decoder and they are not PWM signals (like CDs) which should be a little more robust (IE: less time sensitve).

As for HD-DVD and Blue Ray, Dolby Digital and DTS stated they they are building on top of the existing Dolby Digital and DTS-24/96 technologies and it looks like it's primarily to add up to 10 descrete channels. I don't think they are going to re-do the encoder as Dolby claims that current Dobly Digital is indestinguishable from the masters in blind tests as is, the maximum theoretical frequecy resolution of 43 KHz is far above what speakers could replicate linearly and 24 bits can reproduce more notes then we have hairs in our inner ear (okay, I don't know that for sure, but it's a lot)

[RebelMan]

grit, in an utopian world a pre/pro amplifier would simply pass the signal through and the power amplifier would simply add gain, neither altering the quality of the original signal. Unfortunately, most components change the properties/characteristics of the signal to some degree. It has been my experience that the order of importance (the device that has the biggest impact) in the authentic reproduction of sound is as follows... 1) Recording, 2) Room, 3) Speakers, 4) Pre/Pro Amplifier, 5) Playback Device, 6) Power Amplifier, 7) Cables

I have conducted numerous auditions between all of the above and while differences exist beween each class member (amp to amp) they are far less significant than from class to class (pre-amplifier to power amplifer). Provided you are driving your speakers with enough CLEAN power, your biggest differences will come from changes make to your pre/pro amplifier. Wether those changes are "better sounding" can only be decided by you.

In my opinion you will be far better served by swapping out your pre/pro amplifier than you will your power amplifier while driving the 803S's. I have conducted very critical listening tests between my 100 wpc RSX-1056 and my 200 wpc RB-1080 and under typical volumes (up to 88db from my listening position which is pretty loud) there was virtually no difference in the quality of the sound being reproduced. Only when I over stressed the system (92db+) did the 1080 start to show its muscles.

[Sim reality]

As for HD-DVD and Blue Ray, Dolby Digital and DTS stated they they are building on top of the existing Dolby Digital and DTS-24/96 technologies and it looks like it's primarily to add up to 10 descrete channels. I don't think they are going to re-do the encoder as Dolby claims that current Dobly Digital is indestinguishable from the masters in blind tests as is, the maximum theoretical frequecy resolution of 43 KHz is far above what speakers could replicate linearly and 24 bits can reproduce more notes then we have hairs in our inner ear (okay, I don't know that for sure, but it's a lot)

Nevermind... I am a goof... Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD are lossless formats.

[grit]

grit, in an utopian world a pre/pro amplifier would simply pass the signal through and the power amplifier would simply add gain, neither altering the quality of the original signal. Unfortunately, most components change the properties/characteristics of the signal to some degree. It has been my experience that the order of importance (the device that has the biggest impact) in the authentic reproduction of sound is as follows... 1) Recording, 2) Room, 3) Speakers, 4) Pre/Pro Amplifier, 5) Playback Device, 6) Power Amplifier, 7) Cables

I have conducted numerous auditions between all of the above and while differences exist beween each class member (amp to amp) they are far less significant than from class to class (pre-amplifier to power amplifer). Provided you are driving your speakers with enough CLEAN power, your biggest differences will come from changes make to your pre/pro amplifier. Wether those changes are "better sounding" can only be decided by you.

In my opinion you will be far better served by swapping out your pre/pro amplifier than you will your power amplifier while driving the 803S's. I have conducted very critical listening tests between my 100 wpc RSX-1056 and my 200 wpc RB-1080 and under typical volumes (up to 88db from my listening position which is pretty loud) there was virtually no difference in the quality of the sound being reproduced. Only when I over stressed the system (92db+) did the 1080 start to show its muscles.

Thanks Rebel, that does help a lot. I just don't want to spend endless hours at my dealer's swapping out $5k components when I can only afford to buy one. I'd rather put my efforts to comparing brands within just one component.

This leaves me with the pre-pro / decoder question... Why can companies (or why dont they) allow upgrades? I'm honestly worried about spending $5k on a new pre-pro only to find out that next year, I'll need a new one to play the new Dolby-HD and DTS-HD formats?

[kurtholz]

well, i upgraded to a Krell showcase first, massive difference from Rotel, then i went to the kav3250 for the front 3, another massive upgrade from the Rotel 1095

my two cents

free

:-)

Kurt

[RebelMan]

This leaves me with the pre-pro / decoder question... Why can companies (or why dont they) allow upgrades? I'm honestly worried about spending $5k on a new pre-pro only to find out that next year, I'll need a new one to play the new Dolby-HD and DTS-HD formats?

If you decide on Brystons' SP2 then you are in luck. They are the only hi-end company that I know of that built HARDWARE upgradeability into their pre-amplifier/processor from the get-go AND actually offer upgrade paths.

The original SP1 and SP1.7 can have their digital boards and microprocessor controller boards upgraded to the equivalent of an SP2 for only $1495.00 and $1195.00 respectively. To buy a new SP2 pre/pro would cost $4695.00. They are also in the planning stages for an HDMI upgrade that would allow one to take advantage of the newer hi-res formats such as DTS-HD and Dolby-TrueHD. Once the standards comittee settles on the new HDMI specification (currently at version 1.3) then I beileve they will move quickly to provide an upgrade path.

Not only would you get the latest DSP and DAC upgrades, you get a pre/pro that IS ALSO a fully "Class-A" analog pre-amplifier. Are you starting to see why they rock?

[misterdoggy]

well, i upgraded to a Krell showcase first, massive difference from Rotel, then i went to the kav3250 for the front 3, another massive upgrade from the Rotel 1095

my two cents

free

:-)

Kurt

Kurt,

That was my last few moves as well. I went from a Rotel 1090 to the Krell Showcase then to the Krell Kav 2250 and 3250. Now I'm thinking about either a Classe CAM350 monos or Krell FPB300cx.

The jump from Rotel to Krell was the biggest difference. The jump from the showcase to the Kav was less monumental. The difference is slight.

Hopefully the next jump will be more significant !

[NonSense]

grit

If you are looking to improve your 2CH music playback, you should be looking at 2CH components and not multi-channel processors. You should be able to find a great 2CH pre-amp at a fraction of the cost of a HT processor and still achieve better 2CH playback. The 1068 should be good enough, if you are just looking to improve the 2CH portion of the system.

Some of the newer 2CH pre-amps from manufacturers like Musical Fidelity offer an HT pass-through. This will bypass the volume control of the 2Ch pre when operating in HT mode, to give the volume control back to the 1068 for multi-channel operation. That way you still get some life from your current HT components, and put your money directly into improving the 2CH side.

At minimum, it should be worth considering.

[grit]

Bruce,

I'd love to improve my 2-ch, and HT is secondary. I'd prefer to have a great HT pre-pro with an analog bypass secion that'd rival a 2ch pre. My understanding is that Classe's SP-600 does this, but at the cost of $6500. Rebel also mentioned Bryston, so I'm looking in the San Diego area now for a Bryston dealer.

I'd assume one of the benefits of this is that other digital signals, such as a digital cable box, X-Box, etc. would have some improvement from the digital processing end as well, correct? As for stereo pre's that have a HT bypass, are you aware of any other brands?

[Karma]

HI grit,
Krell preamps, at least some of them, have a bypass mode.

Sparky

[DClark]

Grit, we are actually in the same situation. I currentlly have a Meridian 568.2 that I am auditioning. I love the sound and is an excellent two channel DAC and allows the flexibility of integration of home theater.

I share the same concerns that you have about the upgrade path in one or two years. I called Meridian USA and their response to future upgrades to the G68j and similiar G series componets is non-commital. I can certainly understand this.

Bryston does offer the upgrades. I am still considering the 2.0 or the the Meridian G68j
Price points are very close. The G68j offers reclocking where the Bryston 2.0 will not according to James Tanner. However, Bryston will be introducing an external Dac in the next couple of months...details on Audio Circle.

So, my choices are going to be the Meridian G68j,or the Bryston 2.0 with the DAC later,the Classe SSP-300, or if I decide to conserve the dollars..the AVP-700. The last choice would be made if I compromise and avoid going bleeding edge at the moment and just sell the AVP-700 when something better comes out...avoiding upgrade.

[rav934]

I just assembled this system:

B&W 804s
Musical Fidelity A5 integrated amp
Musical Fidelity A5 C2 player

Makes me smile!

[RebelMan]

I'd love to improve my 2-ch, and HT is secondary. I'd prefer to have a great HT pre-pro with an analog bypass secion that'd rival a 2ch pre. My understanding is that Classe's SP-600 does this, but at the cost of $6500. Rebel also mentioned Bryston, so I'm looking in the San Diego area now for a Bryston dealer.

The Bryston SP2 is a two-channel pre-amplifier FIRST and a processor/controller SECOND. Unlike most (maybe all) others, Bryston did not make ANY compromises on the analog section of their pre/pro. First, the analog section is an identical adaptation of their revered BP26 two-channel audiophile grade pre-amplifier. Second there are no video switching/scaling circuits of any kind. You have to purchase that separately. The analog side is completely isolated from the digital side, right down to the volume control! You won't need a separate pre-amplifier, with HT pass through, if you own the SP2. It's all (correctly) built in, the way pre/pro's should be.

grit, I believe you will improve your two-channel system with the SP2. I did a head-to-head with the Rotel RSP-1098 and the "older" Bryston SP 1.7 in analog bypass mode driving a pair of 802D's. This discussion would probably be moot had you been there.

P.S. Next to Bryston, I think Classe' makes some of the finest sounding (SS) equipment there is for the B&W 800 series speakers. I think you would be happy with either brand if you can swallow the 30% premium of the latter.