Killing Time at my Dealer

[LikeCoiledSteel]

Hi Guys,
I was killing some time today at my B&W dealer this morning and heard some interesting stuff. This dealer was saying that they were dropping Bryston and picking up Lexicon because the Bryston gear was just too harsh with B&W speakers. Proceed is now out of business. The dealer is also a Rotel and Classe dealer, but he says that the Rotel and Classe gear is only good for the 804's and down, so he went to Lexicon for the D series.

In one of his showrooms he had a set of 803D's, HTM1 and a sub I belive was an 875($4000). He said that the 875 was not "fast enough" for 803D's with the Lexicon gear, and B&W was coming to the dealer to find out why. Lexicon
actually recommended Klipsh subs instead, which he also carries.
Steel

[aphexist]

Hi Guys,
I was killing some time today at my B&W dealer this morning and heard some interesting stuff.

Ohh you little gossip whore!

I heard that B&W was mating its British sensibilty with Martin Logan's debonair flair for the dramatic to make a sexy new diamond electrostat. Item! Oh, and the French and Italians are at it again in the form of a newly renewed feud between Sonus Faber and JM Labs! Apparently SF is jealous that their pacifist neighbors are hogging all the beryllium. Who would've thought?

[JKalman]

Hi Guys,
I was killing some time today at my B&W dealer this morning and heard some interesting stuff. This dealer was saying that they were dropping Bryston and picking up Lexicon because the Bryston gear was just too harsh with B&W speakers. Proceed is now out of business. The dealer is also a Rotel and Classe dealer, but he says that the Rotel and Classe gear is only good for the 804's and down, so he went to Lexicon for the D series.

In one of his showrooms he had a set of 803D's, HTM1 and a sub I belive was an 875($4000). He said that the 875 was not "fast enough" for 803D's with the Lexicon gear, and B&W was coming to the dealer to find out why. Lexicon
actually recommended Klipsh subs instead, which he also carries.
Steel

Interesting, I wonder if dealers are getting pissed off about Bryston's 20 year transferable warranty and cheap hardware upgrades. Why buy new from a dealer ever again when you can either buy used for less, or keep upgrading your Bryston gear to the newest incarnation for 1/4 to 1/5 the price. There are a lot of reasons for a dealer not to like Bryston. One of my dealers loves them over Lexicon with B&W speakers for music, but this is why I like this particular dealer, he is extremely honest to a fault. He knew he was selling me something that would garner him less money in the long run. It took about two weeks for Bryston to build them, test them and send them to my dealer, so it wasn't like he had the pieces sitting around the shop and was trying to get rid of them. The date on the test sheets that were in the sealed box are from a week after my order was put in.

I haven't found what that dealer said to be true of Bryston at all with my 802Ds. I use a Bryston 9B SST and a Bryston SP1.7. I was using the Lexicon RV-8 before I had the separate Bryston pieces. I can say without a doubt in my mind that for transparency with music the Brystons were better than the Lexicon. The bypass modes are superb with no colorization. For HT though, the Bryston's don't have Logic 7 and the Lexicon does, and everyone knows that it is considered one of the best on the market. I had the option of buying the Lexicon instead, and I would have saved money, but I didn't think it sounded as clean for music playback, and music for me is of more importance than HT.

Out of six dealers in my area, I found four that I felt were ethical. Two of the six dealers were snobby money weasels trying to use their knowledge of high end audio to manipulate me into buying what they wanted to sell instead of trying to educate me into buying something I enjoyed. Two more were completely unknowledgable but at the least were honest about their lack of knowledge and tried to be helfpul. The last two knew alot and used that to make recommendations without trying to use their knowledge to push me into buying something they were selling, and even recommended I try gear from brands they didn't sell.

I will never go to those first two dealers again. The second two I would go back to if they have a product I am interested in which I can't get from the last two dealers. The last two I use all the time, and I feel guilty when I buy gear they don't carry since they have been so over the top helpful, but I have to do what will work best for my setup.

[caleb]

Hi Jeff,

Two things in your post: -

1) I agree with you 100% on the Brystons - I have 7BSST for my front 802's and the sound has been complemented by everyone who hears it, although my front end DVD player and processor is TAG McLaren.

2) Ethical Hi Fi dealers? ? ? a bit like finding an honest used car dealer in my opinion - if you have found four out of six then you are doing very well mate.

[misterdoggy]

Hi Guys,
The dealer is also a Rotel and Classe dealer, but he says that the Rotel and Classe gear is only good for the 804's and down, so he went to Lexicon for the D series.

There are too many owners of Classe Amps in the Group that are Happy Happy Campers to take this dealer seriously. Personally I prefer Krell Amps, but the fact that he could say that about Classe shows he's a salesman 1st.

Rotel is good but grouping it together with Classe is not comparing apples for apples as the cost of Classe Omega, Omicron and Cam series are not quite the same.

Even the Beatles Recording studo and B&W use Classe Amps in their recording studios and listening rooms ? :T

Give the guy a kick in the pants and send him packing :a>

But like I said, I'm partial to Krells. Next step Krell400cx ;x(

[Karma]

There are too many owners of Classe Amps in the Group that are Happy Happy Campers to take this dealer seriously. Personally I prefer Krell Amps, but the fact that he could say that about Classe shows he's a salesman 1st.

Rotel is good but grouping it together with Classe is not comparing apples for apples as the cost of Classe Omega, Omicron and Cam series are not quite the same.

Even the Beatles Recording studo and B&W use Classe Amps in their recording studios and listening rooms ? :T

Give the guy a kick in the pants and send him packing :a>

But like I said, I'm partial to Krells. Next step Krell400cx ;x(

HI,
Me too. Yesterday, I received my jet black Krell KAV 3250 three channel amp. It replaces a Krell KAV 2250 stereo amp. Yes!!! What a great amp.

I use all three 3250 channels for movies driving the center channel from my Denon 3805 center pre out and the L and R channels from my Krell KAV 280P pre in the feed through theater mode. Works great.

For stereo music the 280P and the 3250 do all the work using only two 3250 channels. I switch the subs from the Denon LFE output to a summed configuration for stereo. It's kind of complicated to write about but very easy to do with a switch box. This allows me to optimize for either case.

The sound is awesome. Krell can deliver power and delicacy like no other. :clap:

Sparky

[misterdoggy]

HI,
Me too. Yesterday, I received my jet black Krell KAV 3250 three channel amp. It replaces a Krell KAV 2250 stereo amp. Yes!!! What a great amp.

I use all three 3250 channels for movies driving the center channel from my Denon 3805 center pre out and the L and R channels from my Krell KAV 280P pre in the feed through theater mode. Works great.

For stereo music the 280P and the 3250 do all the work using only two 3250 channels. I switch the subs from the Denon LFE output to a summed configuration for stereo. It's kind of complicated to write about but very easy to do with a switch box. This allows me to optimize for either case.

The sound is awesome. Krell can deliver power and delicacy like no other. :clap:

Sparky

Sparky

So you use the 3805 to drive your surrounds and the 280p bypass for pure stereo ....... How come you didn't keep the 2250 and run all 5 channels thru the 2 amps. Trade in the 3805 and the 280p for a straight processor and run stereo thru the processor in bypass.

[Karma]

Sparky

So you use the 3805 to drive your surrounds and the 280p bypass for pure stereo ....... How come you didn't keep the 2250 and run all 5 channels thru the 2 amps. Trade in the 3805 and the 280p for a straight processor and run stereo thru the processor in bypass.

HI doggy,
Let's see, how can I explain this? First, you are right about keeping the 2250 for a total Krell experience. I wish I could have done that. I could not justify the expense and the space (I don't have much) for the surround channels and the Denon actually does a fine job. I know others would disagree, but I just don't think the surrrounds are that important when it comes to high end fidelity. They should sound good but they don't have to sound great. So far the Denon surround channels have plenty of power and I have felt no need to augment them.

My system is split into two basic signal paths that meet in the middle a couple of times. For music I run the coax output from my Denon 3910 Play Anything machine to a Cal Audio Labs Sigma II tube DAC then take the analog outputs to a Krell 280P input. The 280P stereo outputs go to two places. They drive the 3250 amp inputs for L and R speakers and they also drive my stereo subwoofers through my subwoofer switch box. I'll come back to the subs.

For music I select Input 1 (the DAC output) on the 280P and the Denon AV receiver is out of the picture (no pun!). It does not have to be turned on.

For movies, things are a lot more complicated. I connect the Play Everything box to the Denon 3805 receiver via the Denon Link. This is a propretary Denon digital interface kind of like HDMI that provides Dolby Digital digital audio but no video which is handled separately. Then I run the 3805 front L and R preamp outputs to the 280P Input 2. The center channel Denon preamp output goes directly to the 3250 amp third channel input which, in turn, drives the center speaker.

So, for movies I select Input 2 on the 280P which routes the Denon L and R preamp outputs to the 3250 amp. While this can work, it poses a problem. Now I have two volume controls; one on the 280P for L and R front and one on the Denon 3805 for center and the surrounds. Not good.

Krell anticipated this problem. The preamp has a special "Theater Mode" that you can easily access that automatically sets the gain of the selected preamp input (Input 2 in this case) to 1 or unity gain. It also disables the preamp's volume and balance controls. Now I can control the gains of all the theater channels from the Denon without having to worry about the volume and balance settings on the 280P. Very clever and very useful.

Thus, 3250 amp drives the three front speakers and the Denon, as you noted, drives the surrounds and the 7.1 backs. L and R front amplifier inputs are always driven through the 280P and the center amplifier input is always driven from the Denon's center channel preamp output.

The subwoofers pose a second problem. For stereo music, I want stereo inputs to my stereo subwoofers. For movies, I want the Denon LFE output to drive both subs. This was easily solved by a subwoofer switch box which allows me to switch between the LFE signal from the Denon and the stereo L and R signals from the 280P. The subs are happy.

If all this sounds complicated, it is. It keeps me confused at times. Why go to all this trouble? Well, music is my priority. By doing all of this I can keep a very simple stereo music signal path and use my best music making equipment without intrusion from the theater system. It avoids using the Denon, which while good, is still several steps down. I also retain use of the Krells in all cases, have easy mode switching, have easy volume control while maintaining theater channel levels calibration, and all the while maintaining full subwoofer function again with complete calibration. It works well.

Whew!!!! I hope I got the idea across. Sometines even I don't understand it. If you can see an easier way, I'm all ears.

Sparky

[misterdoggy]

Wow, complicated. There might be some loss betwen the 2 volume controls.

The only other choice is processor instead of Preamp and 3805 and DAC, but then you need another Amp.

You could pick up a Parasound Halo C2 processor for about $2500 and a Parasound A21 or A23 for $500 to $1000 used for either 2x 125 or 2x 250 watts for surround duty. Its a great processor and you could sell all the other stuff and simplify your life

[Karma]

HI doggy,
Are you serious? Why in the world would I ever sell my Krell stuff?

Not two volume controls. Remember the Krell 280P preamp bypasses the volume and balance controls in the Theater Mode. But still, I have to traverse two preamps, the krell and the Denon. But remember, that is only the case for theater audio which is my lower priority. For music, the path is totally simple which is the goal.

No thanks, I think I'll hold pat.

Sparky

[LikeCoiledSteel]

Hi Guys,
Thanks for your input. I do not like this dealer much. They give the impression that if you are not in there to by 800D's and a 20k projector, that you are not worth thier time. I bought my CDM7nt's there as demo but never bought anything else there. Unfortunatly there is only 2 B&W dealers in with 30 miles of me. There are a few more but are much further away. There is one B&W dealer downtown Ft. Lauderdale that is also a B&O dealer, but I was not that impressed with him.

Karme, it seems that we have similar setups. I have a Krell Kav 250a and Kav250p for stereo. The 250p has the same Home Theater bypass mode that I use for watching movies. I use an Outlaw 950 pre/pro and feed the center with an Outlaw m200. The rears are fed with an Adcom 535. This allows me to enjoy pure 2 channel and also have theater capabilities from the one system. Saves space and money.

I like the Krell sound but have heard that Rotel is better matched for 700 series B&W. I am looking to replace my Adcom with a Rotel amp to see how it sounds. Brystons waranty is the best and I would like to see how they sound also. One dealer I have been to had some 800's hooked to a Krell and said they could not get it to sound right. They ended up getting 2 Marantz monoblocks at $7000/each and said corrected the problem. I guess that sound is so subjective that it is impossible to satisfy everyone. I am sure a set of good tubes will slay most SS amps anyway.
Steel

[Karma]

HI Steel,
From a performance point of view, I'm very skeptical of what your dealer said. However, cost wise Krell may be serious over kill for 700 series speakers. Maybe that's what the dealer meant.

I am tube guy at least when I'm listening to my main system. It's all Audio Research tube pre and power amps but with a Levinson Model 23 driving my dual subs. This is a great sounding music only system.

I love tubes but not all tubes. There is more variation in the sound of tube amps than there is with solid state equipment. One should not generalize. I'll take my Krell's in a microsecond over many tube amps I have heard. The soft, romantic, bass less sound I have often heard others praise are, to me, simply complicated tone controls. Tubes at their best, IMO, is the best. Some tube amps, like single ended triod designs, I don't like at all. I would chose a good SS amp over them any day.

Pick your poison.

Sparky

[misterdoggy]

HI doggy,
Are you serious? Why in the world would I ever sell my Krell stuff?

Not two volume controls. Remember the Krell 280P preamp bypasses the volume and balance controls in the Theater Mode. But still, I have to traverse two preamps, the krell and the Denon. But remember, that is only the case for theater audio which is my lower priority. For music, the path is totally simple which is the goal.

No thanks, I think I'll hold pat.

Sparky

Sorry Karma,

I meant keeping your krell of course !!! ;x(

One doesn't sell their Krell, they just use it as a point to go up from :T

[misterdoggy]

Hi Guys,

I like the Krell sound but have heard that Rotel is better matched for 700 series B&W. I am looking to replace my Adcom with a Rotel amp to see how it sounds. Brystons waranty is the best and I would like to see how they sound also. One dealer I have been to had some 800's hooked to a Krell and said they could not get it to sound right. They ended up getting 2 Marantz monoblocks at $7000/each and said corrected the problem. I guess that sound is so subjective that it is impossible to satisfy everyone. I am sure a set of good tubes will slay most SS amps anyway.
Steel

I was happy running Krell Kav 2250 with my 704's before the 802D's arrived. I actually replaced my Rotel 1090 (2x300w) with the Krell and it was like I was in the Dark and now I can see the light.

I think at the top its not a matter of which sounds better, but which sound do you prefer. ie: Classe is a warmer sounding and Krells are Brighter for example.

So the decision isn't better, but do you like the krell sound, the Classe sound, the Levinson sound etc.

Take 2 $10000 Amps from different companies who make $10000 amps and the decision can ONLY be taste. Unless you think that any Company at that level can make a "bad" amplifier for $10000 ?

Of course some systems sound better with one or another because of other reasons, room sonics, speakers, sources, combinations of factors, but ultimately its YOUR taste that decides.

Or else their would only be ONE everything, no choice if you get my point.

[Karma]

HI doggy,
I think your comments on taste and amplifier sound/cost is right on the money (pun intended). At the lower cost ranges the cost/benefit trade-offs tend to homoginize the sound between brands. In most cases who knows the identity of the individual designer? The higher you go in price the more the taste of the amplifier designer comes through and sonic style becomes audible.

At the highest levels amplifier design becomes art. That's why certain designers become famous. They are not only expert electronics engineers but artists with tubes, transistors, resistors and capacitors. Their designs always sound as though they are cut from the same cloth while still improving over time. It's kind of spooky.

When we speak of Audio Research, Krell, Levinson, Conrad-Johnson, etc. we know the sound of those products. The only thing left to discuss is how the sound fits our tastes. At the higest level there is no absolute truth; only different ways of expressing it.

It's that extreme care and exquisite taste that we ultimately pay for. It is the very definition of high end audio.

BTW, B&W fits that definition especially with the 800 series series of speakers.

Sparky

[JKalman]

The subwoofers pose a second problem. For stereo music, I want stereo inputs to my stereo subwoofers. For movies, I want the Denon LFE output to drive both subs. This was easily solved by a subwoofer switch box which allows me to switch between the LFE signal from the Denon and the stereo L and R signals from the 280P. The subs are happy.

Karma,

What would you recommend for a subwoofer switchbox? Also, do you have any recommendations for other switches for interconnects, etc, that do not skew the integrity of the signal? In particular I will need a switchbox for 5.1 cabling somewhere down the road. Or, if anyone else has recommendations as well, I would appreciate it.

Thanks.

[Karma]

HI Jeff,
I'm sorry I took so long to reply. I lost track of your post.

My subwoofer switchbox is a modification of an old passive preamp (so called), called Reference Line which is itself a switchbox with a high quality stereo volume control. I just added four RCA's, a switch and some internal wiring. It was no big deal. It even looks half way good.

I have no idea if such a switch box is available commercially but almost everything is if you look long enough.

Sparky