holographic soundstage with 804S

[tboooe]

Hi, I was wondering if any members have been able to create a holograpic, 3 dimensional soundstage with their 804S. I have been fiddling around with positioning and cabling trying to achieve this with mediocre results. I can create a very nice and wide soundstage but the center image is very flat and 1 dimensional. I dont get the sensation of depth or layering. Vocals, drums, guitars are all within the same flat plane which appears to start about 1 ft behind the front plane of the speakers. I am in the process of trying out some new cabling and the best I can do is get a soundstage that is only slightly 3 dimensional.

So I have to ask if getting a true holographic soundstage is even possible with the 804S? Am I asking too much? Is this even possible?

By the way, I am using a Cary 303/300 cdp and Paraound Halo A21 amp.

Thanks in advance.

[weijst]

I remember being very impressed with size of the center image that was created by my two N804's (roughly equalled the size of the entire wall that was in between the two speakers), compared to for instance the size of the image that was created using two 705's. I didn't continue calibrating my system up to the point were this image became 3 dimensional. Now is it me, or are you simply asking too much of your 804s's...?

[Angioguy]

3D Soundstage

I just purchased a pair of 803S speakers with Nordost Super Flatline MKII cables and have them driven by an Arcam AVR-300 for the moment-- I'm saving up for the McIntosh MC-252-- which will ultimately be used for these.

With very little tweaking thus far, I have been able to achieve a fairly good soundstage: Voices appear from center stage and there is actually some depth to the music. With a little work, hopefully these speakers will deliver!

Good luck!

[Angioguy]

3D Soundstage

see above

[GregLett]

Tbooe,

Sounds like your speakers may be too far apart, reason for the
center image to collapse. Also the toe in angle, I get a good
3D image with the focal point just behind my seating area.

Hope that helps

[tboooe]

greglett:

thanks for the response. my speakers are only 5 ft apart and i sit a little over 5 ft away. i use very little toe in. the speakers are also about 3 ft away from the back wall. do you see anything wrong with this setup?

[GregLett]

humm. since you are so close, I would suggest trying a little more toe in. Basically have the sound of the two speakers meet just behind where you sit, the top of the triangle if you will. That should help lock things abit.

[dyazdani]

The room itself (in addition to speaker / listener position) is quite important for imaging. I've found it hard to optimize both the stage width and the center imaging in an untreated room.

I would try the toe in first as the other post suggested. I've always found it easiest to stand behind the speaker and use the tweeter pod as a "sight" to aim the speakers. Try aiming each pod so it points about 8-12 inches to the respective side of your head. This will make them cross slightly behind you like Greg said.

[Blazar]

The room MUST be treated as most untreated rooms are to blame for lack of imaging effects.


Echoed sounds (early reflections) taint the direct radiated sound so much that it makes the sound muddy and imaging becomes poor.

[ChrissB]

Tbooe,
is there any big furniture between the 2 speakers? If yes, remove it. I have the same speakers, no good amp and cd (so far cause i'm doing some research 2 get new ones) and still I have a great 3d soundstage. Room treatment helps indeed but mind not to make your room acoustically "dead". A proper room treatment means that not all reflections are removed!

[tboooe]

ChrissB:
thanks for the response. between my speakers is the audio rack. i have it set back about 1 ft from the front plane of the speakers.

can you describe your 3d soundstage, particularly what you hear in the center? do you get a layered sound with vocals coming from one depth and drums, etc coming from another?

[ChrissB]

tboooe:
Audio rack is not a problem you dont have to remove/move it, I was reffering to large furniture like large bookcases or chimneys etc....
As for the soundstage, it is exactly like you said: layered. To give you an example In good recordings (especially without many instruments, it's always easier to notice it) I can hear the voice at the front and a guitar, and at the back other instruments like bass piano etc... In other recordings (where i suppose the did phase tricks) i can even hear some effects/or voices coming from the side! (for instance this happens on Roger Waters - In the Flesh cd on Perfect Sense Part I I can here a voice saing "Dave" coming from the left). But mind you! don't take it literally when ppl say "I heard it coming 2 meters from this direction" etc... they are talking about impressions not really measurable things!
Another thing that matters is that your equipment is "warmed up". When I turn them on the don't sound at their best after 1 hour they are there! And oh! mood is of great importance 2! we are not allways in our best to "get into music" so don't get anxiuous about it! I know that for sometime I was always trying to notice things and missed the point, when I stopped it then I did found what was looking about.

P.S. Roger Waters - In the Flesh cd aint a really good recording. Sorry for any mistakes I might have done cause English aint my mothers lang!

[tboooe]

ChrissB:

i definitely do not get the layered soundstage you are describing. i cant understand why though. i know i have good components. as other members have pointed out, it must by my room.

one question: how far away from the back wall are your speakers? mine are about 3 ft. is this enough or do i need more spacing in order to get the layered soundstage?

[ChrissB]

Tboooe:
I dont know if 3 feet is optimum but its more than I have! mine is much closer (about half) to the back walls. On layered soundstage most evident is when there are a few instruments (and piano), then usually piano sounds clearly at the back. I'm going to look @ my cd collection for songs etc that might be of help 4 you and I'll send you a list. It will be after this weekend tho so to try and find as many as possible. Hope this will help.

[grit]

Tboooe, there's a possibility your room is just too small for that kind of detail. Sound travels through the air (in a vacuum, there's no sound). With less room, it's harder to create an immersive environment. Keep playing with the positioning of the speakers.

[Eliav]

ChrissB:

i definitely do not get the layered soundstage you are describing. i cant understand why though. i know i have good components. as other members have pointed out, it must by my room.

one question: how far away from the back wall are your speakers? mine are about 3 ft. is this enough or do i need more spacing in order to get the layered soundstage?

Hi
There is a formula that tells you exactly what distance from the side and rear walls you should place your speakers for optimized acoustics. it is a fraction of your room length and width. I will send it to you once I am back home today. very easy to follow.
Eliav

[dyazdani]

Here is the formula Eliav is talking about:

The distance from center of speaker to side wall:

Room Width times 0.276

The distance from the front of speaker to rear wall:

Room Width times 0.447

The only problem with the formula is that depending on your room's relative length and width, it sometimes results in the speakers being way out into the room. This might cause some WAF problems.

[grit]

Here is the formula Eliav is talking about:

The distance from center of speaker to side wall:

Room Width times 0.276

The distance from the front of speaker to rear wall:

Room Width times 0.447

The only problem with the formula is that depending on your room's relative length and width, it sometimes results in the speakers being way out into the room. This might cause some WAF problems.

That doesn't seem to make sense... in a 20' wide room, I should put the speakers 8.94' from the real wall (20*.447 = 8.94)?

[Stoney]

Here is the link to those formulas. I think the rear wall is refering to the wall behind the speaker.

http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=26&pagestring=Room+Setup

Edit: Lex, I just realised this link is to a competitor; feel free to delete it if necessary. Mike.

[RobP]

Tboooe, here is another calculator that lets you input the brand and model of speakers that you have to help figure out the optimal placement.

http://www.rivesaudio.com/CARAquick/CARAframe.html

But, above everything room treatment is a must, in my setup my speakers are 42" from the back wall and 26" from the side wall, without my panels in place the soundstage was only about a foot beyond each speaker and the stage was not deep, with my treatment in place the width is almost infinite (depends on the recording) and the depth is unbelievable. I get all of this WITH a huge console sitting in between them, it sets back about the depth of the 803 cabinets.

Also, regarding toe in, it really depends on how your room is, but I used a laser and toed my speakers in so that the angles meet about six feet behind my head at my primary spot. I think I have about a 7deg toe in.

[dyazdani]

That doesn't seem to make sense... in a 20' wide room, I should put the speakers 8.94' from the real wall (20*.447 = 8.94)?

Yep. That's why I said what I did about the relative length and width of the room!

I own the full CARA program as well. It seems to work pretty well, but you always have to verify with testing. I ran it on Eliav's room a while back and it optimized to the same result as the formula. This is not always the case though.

[RobP]

OOOH Danish you have the whole program???? :twisted: So what are you doing this weekend? :B

[dyazdani]

OOOH Danish you have the whole program???? :twisted: So what are you doing this weekend? :B

Yeah, it's only like $75 for the version 2.1. It's a bit tricky to use, but I've stumbled my way around a couple of rooms. My room is a bit difficult because it is oddly shaped and has a sloped ceiling.

I don't have too many plans this weekend if you're up for an 8 hour drive! Seriously though, if you send me a room picture and some dimensions, I can work on it.

[RobP]

Ill have to dig in my stuff, the last program that I had was called "Room Duck" put out by JBL proffesional. It works pretty much the same but its more for large Cinemas. About a year ago I came across my LinearX PCRTA, it had a 4 mic multiplexer for room averaging. Like a big dummy I sold it, I didnt think that I would need it anymore, boy what was I thinking??

[JKalman]

Hi, I was wondering if any members have been able to create a holograpic, 3 dimensional soundstage with their 804S. I have been fiddling around with positioning and cabling trying to achieve this with mediocre results. I can create a very nice and wide soundstage but the center image is very flat and 1 dimensional. I dont get the sensation of depth or layering. Vocals, drums, guitars are all within the same flat plane which appears to start about 1 ft behind the front plane of the speakers. I am in the process of trying out some new cabling and the best I can do is get a soundstage that is only slightly 3 dimensional.

So I have to ask if getting a true holographic soundstage is even possible with the 804S? Am I asking too much? Is this even possible?

By the way, I am using a Cary 303/300 cdp and Paraound Halo A21 amp.

Thanks in advance.

You should have a 3 dimensional image now. Are you place the speakers far enough away from the walls and your TV, etc. Usually people have problems with image depth when they have objects in the middle or next to their speakers (especially if they have something in the middle, between the two speakers).