Got the 703's and 1080 installed... (long)

[azsyno]

Well, we've now got everything in! I replaced the 602's with 703's upfront and added a Rotel 1080.

So far I'm very impressed. The 602's never did really 'fill' this room. It's big - about 25 x 45ft. and despite having 602's in the rear for backfill, and a decent power supply in the form of the Yamaha RxV-1400, the expanse of the room just killed the low end notes while it actentuated the highs...

Now it's a different, and much more appealing overall set-up. The 703's are very expansive in their range. I think the tweeter notes are a bit bright right now, but I'll wait to tweak them until the speakers have had a chance to work for a few hours.

Interestingly, the ASW600 sub is working better than ever - we took the range down to 40 and below and the 703's are absorbing anything above that - and they're doing an excellent job.

Overall, we love the new system!

A few notes though:

*The Rotal is not grounded. It turns out that a wine cooler in the space behind the TV is on the same breaker as the entire AV system. The Rotel ended up with a very audible and annoying buzz due to the wine cooler and routing a new line to the AV system was/is not going to happen. Instead, I used a $2.00 three-to-two interconnect at the point of the plug-in to the wall. Voila! The ground loop interference is now gone.

What do you guys think about this? I understand it's not perfect, but I now get no discernable noise from the speakers and within the next 4-6 month's we'll be relocating again anyway... can the Rotel live without a ground for awhile?

Also, I went with some nice cabling and interconnects - I really don't know much about these things, but they were pretty expensive and... that must count for something right? :-)

Any thoughts on next steps? I do see a new pre-amp in my future - probably a Rotel product. I'd like to have a 12v trigger ability to turn off the 1080 and the Yamaha is simply too 'much' show and not enough 'go'. Simpler, more suitable control for the 703's in the form of a high end pre-amp with DTS, DVI, 12v triggering, Surround modes, and a highly refinable tweaking interface would be a nice move... but budgets and time are not on my side. Another area of thought is in the center channel... unfortunately, I have no room for anything larger and these days it looks like all the 'good' centers are HUGE!

Funny thing we discovered during the install: mice have taken over the back of my AV cabinet! We found about a cup of dog food behind the center channel - up and IN the cabinet. Damn... time for some mice traps I guess! No way will I let them eat up this system! :M

I'll stop now. Here are the pics:

New and shiny stuff...






Interconnects and cabling:


The offensive wine cooler...


Final glamour shot...


All pics are here...

Have a great weekend!

[Aussie Geoff]

Nice setup..

Try getting your centre channel a bit higher by swapping it with the reciver Amp or other unit. That close to the wooden floor the centre is likely to be reflecting a lot of sounds off the floor and interfering / muddying with the centre channel sound clarity...

Geoff

[PewterTA]

If you watch a lot of movies, I'd upgrade that as well (Center Channel)..

Like Aussie said, move the center up and/or tilt it up towards the listening height. That will help out.

Give the speakers and amp time to "break-in" (you adjust), and the brightness to the setup will go away and you'll like them all the more!

...and also looking at the brightness of your TV... you might want to grab a calibration DVD to tone it down a little so the blacks will come out a bit better..., much more enjoyable to watch. Though is that LCD or DLP? LCD there might not be much you can do, but DLP is easier to adjust.


But regardless, that's an awesome setup you have there!

[azsyno]

[QUOTE=PewterTA]
Like Aussie said, move the center up and/or tilt it up towards the listening... QUOTE]

Thanks Aussie AND Pewter... I'll move the center up this weekend and see what happens - it's a good idea and one I should have thought about doing myself *kick!*

As for the TV, it's a DLP. I have no idea about adjusting it, but I suppose I can call the local shop and get the calibration DVD. Honestly, I don't really care for the TV and I don't have HD coming into the house... somehow, the music always wins the battle of 'what's happening in the living room tonight' discussion...

Thanks for the feedback. Any thoughts on the grounding issue?

[PewterTA]

you should be fine with it since it's not long term... I wouldn't worry about... Only other thing you could do is get a line conditioner or something like the Monster HTS clean power things to help out.

Avia Disc (if that's the one you want)... I doubt any place local to you will beat this price shipped to you.

DeepDiscountDVD.com

That's where I got mine from and as long as you don't mind about the ~week to get it (which why pay more for this type of DVD???), it's about the best price I've seen. And since it walks you through step by step, it's nice and easy and anyone can basically do it!!!

You might even find you want to pick up a sound meter from Radio Shack and do the audio calibration, I bet you'll be suprised the difference that will make to your audio as well.

[Azeke]

Azsyno,

Indeed, I concur with the others here, move the center up to the next rack and tilt it upwards, with a doorstop or other kind of wedge. Also, just my personal opinion, I would move the speakers forward some more with a 10 degree toe-in (that's the consensus from others is best for B&W) and away a some from the rack/tv, this may help minimize deflection issues. Experimentation is best, and don't forget to re-calibrate your speakers once you move them. Also moving your speakers in small increments, 2 or 3 inches, can make a difference in your acoustics. This is the fun part, tweaking your system for optimal acoustics. Allow time for "break-in", if you believe in such things :lol:.

BTW, that is a nice setup :T . Is that a Salamander rack I see 8) ?

Good luck and have fun,

Azeke

[csuzor]

Nice setup! My 703 are playing Beethoven's 9th on sacd as I write, and it's great!

You'll need to toe in the speakers, get them to point straight to the seating position. You can also try angling them slightly backwards too, just a few mm higher from the floor for the front feet. Ideally, they could be set wider as well, but that may not be possible for you.

I have grounded the Rotels as well, by connecting the chassis to the ground with a DIY plug. Eliminated static discharge whenever I touched it, and made the system quieter (less buzz).

I see you are going to have fun selecting and placing a new center channel... take your time and think and listen, because the HTM7 is not well suited.

Well done with the sub, like I said in previous post, 703 is good down to 40Hz, so that is probably ideal cross-over.

[bigburner]

*The Rotal is not grounded. It turns out that a wine cooler in the space behind the TV is on the same breaker as the entire AV system. The Rotel ended up with a very audible and annoying buzz due to the wine cooler and routing a new line to the AV system was/is not going to happen. Instead, I used a $2.00 three-to-two interconnect at the point of the plug-in to the wall. Voila! The ground loop interference is now gone.

I solved a similar problem by installing a new 20 amp mains cable directly from my switchboard. The only devices connected to it are my hi-fi components. That was a relatively cheap fix for a nasty problem.

Eliminating the earth pin from your amp's power plug is one way of fixing the problem as long as you realise that there's a possibility someone may be injured or die as a result of this, if your amp develops a fault. OK, I know the chances of this happening are very small, and many hi-fi enthusiasts do it from time to time, but the earth pin is there for a good reason. If someone in New Zealand is injured or dies as a result of a deliberately removed earth pin then the perpetrator could expect to be prosecuted.

My recommendation therefore is to treat the earth pin solution as a temporary fix until you can find a proper solution. If you do a search on brucek in this forum you will find plenty of good advice on how to fix buzz and hum problems. brucek is an expert in this field. I installed the new mains cable on his advice.

[Mitchell]

Could someone explain the whole earthpin solution. I thought that the earthpin was a ground and would help eliminate hum as the excess found a way out of the system. Why does it help to eliminate it? I dont have a problem but am curious.

[csuzor]

I misread the original problem on the earth pin... My Rotel 1068 and 1075 don't have earth pins, and released static and hummed. I added an earth connection to the chassis, and that fixed the problem. I have never understood why Rotel sometimes have, sometimes dont, have earth pins. In some cases having earth pins "brings in" noise from nearby equipment? Maybe the earth is clean where I am?

[bigburner]

Could someone explain the whole earthpin solution. I thought that the earthpin was a ground and would help eliminate hum as the excess found a way out of the system. Why does it help to eliminate it? I dont have a problem but am curious.

Mitchell, this is how brucek described it in a post a couple of months ago:

The "third prong" is the electrical safety ground and is there to protect you and anyone who uses your equipment from electrocution. The safety ground is a cold conductor designed to provide a path to ground for safety protection against internal shorts inside your equipment when equipped with the three prong plug.

The third prong connects back to your service panel (where it is bonded to the neutral wire), and from there is connected either or both to your house plumbing or external ground rod.

On equipment with a third prong, the metal case and external metal parts are all connected to this safety ground when you plug the electrical cord into the wall. If a component fails inside a piece of equipment and the 120 volts shorts to the equipments case, then that case is now live and can electrocute you. If the safety ground was attached, then a breaker would trip to indicate you had a fault.

On equipment with two prong plugs, they are internally insulated from the external case to provide this protection without the third wire.

If a device has a two prong power cord, it is not connected to the safety ground in your house.
The two prong plug has a one of the two "blades" of its plug wider than the other. This is the neutral return - not a ground.

If a device, designed for a three prong plug, is modified by removing the safety prong of the plug or by using a cheater (which effectively removes the third prong), then you have created the unsafe condition I mentioned above.

If you have a hum from an amplifier caused by a ground loop, then removing the safety ground connection to amplifier (and perhaps other devices as well), can clear the resultant effect of the ground loop, but creates the safety issue. It's more advisable to try and clear the condition causing the ground loop than to mask its effect by applying unsafe practices.

In that regard though, ground loops are sometimes a difficult task to track down and remove because there are a million reasons for them to exist. The loop is caused by a difference in the ground potentials in your system. Breaking the safety ground almost as often clears the problem, and that is why it goes away with the use of two prong power cords or with the use of cheater plugs. This easy fix is obviously tempting, since it's so easy. I hesitate to say that sometimes it's the only thing in the end that works on some troublesome equipment, ensuring that cheated piece of equipment is hidden away from anyone touching it.

Generally a ground loop can be tracked down to its source. Removing the problem can sometimes be a little more difficult.
You have to first ensure you have a ground loop situation and it would appear you've accomplished that.

One of the other major culprits in creating ground loops is the use of more than one circuit in an HT system. The larger systems demand more power, so several dedicated circuits are sometimes needed. But even using a single circuit with different receptacles can cause a ground loop.
Residential houses use 240 volt "single phase" three wire power. The two "hot" legs are 120 volts and are 180 degrees out of phase. The loads in your house are balanced between these two legs at the service panel. It is advisable, if you do have two circuits powering your HT system, to ensure you are using a common leg. It is fairly easy to establish this.

Let me explain a bit about ground loops.......Even though the safety ground is a cold conductor, it can, and usually does, develop a small potential, through mutual inductance, wire resistance and various other reasons that can be different at each receptacle in your house.

When I plug a power amp into one receptacle and a preamp into another receptacle, the metal cases of these two units can have a small potential difference in their safety grounds which means that this equipment's metal cases are at a slightly different potential. When I connect a single ended (RCA) cable between these two devices, a small AC current can flow in the shield because of the potential difference. This signal is in the signal loop circuit and can cause a hum. An interconnect circuit has a loop path (completed circuit) that flows through the centre conductor of the interconnect cable and back on the shield. If there is an AC signal on the shield flowing because of the ground difference potential, you'll hear a hum. Breaking the safety ground of one of the two devices removes the potential and the path for the unwanted signal flow...

brucek

[Mitchell]

Thank you Bigburner that was helpful.