serious issue with my 600 series

[monk_d_syple]

I bought the dm602 5 s3 and the lcr60 s3. I'm not extensively happy with the sound I'm getting. I'm getting way too much of a low sound, to the point where I have to boost the treble to +6! Low Dialogue is almost impossible to understand on DVDs. my equipment includes:

DM602 5 s3 spkrs
LCR60 s3 ctr spkr
Denon AVR1905 Receiver
Music Fidelity X-A50 mono Amps (5)
Profigold cables

My room is 4 by 6 meters. I do have a room beside my living room that is a bit empty. Question, is the 602 and lcr60 s3 that bad? I heard some people say that the lcr600 s3 is way better. Is the difference that big? I went to an audio video store and they were playing a movie on a low end HT system and the dialogue was pitch perfect. The technician from the store I bought the equipment set it up for me so I suppose it's well set. Not bi-wired and each speaker has an amp. Any advice/recommendation is truely appreciated. ps. is the rest of my equipment decent? As you can all see I'm a bit of a novice.

[audioqueso]

You're equipment is fine. Denon makes good receiver and MF makes really nice amps. You describe your problem as if it's a REALLY bad problem, huh? I'm assuming it is, yes? I doubt it's your equipment's quality, but it does sound like a setting.

I had the 601/600/LCR60 combination before powered by a Marantz A/V receiver (80x5) and it was very clear. Does it seem like you're not really receiving any high frequencies at all? Double check to see that you don't have any high band filters active in the Denon or perhaps the amp. I don't know Denon settings off the top of my head, but is there a high frequency band that you can adjust? It may be turned down. Also, does the MF amp have a loop RCA (for bi-amping)? Make sure the rca coming from the Denon isn't going to the RCA connection for the low-frequency. If this was so, you would not get any high frequencies. I'm not what else to tell you but check all your settings. The equipment choices are fine. These are good selections, so don't think it's the speakers.

[Lewing]

Hi..

First of all, did you calibrate your system using the SPL meter?

Since all 6 B&Ws lack of treble i think it should not be the speakers problem, maybe it's your receiver and Amps (equipment matching problem), also it is very likely to be the setting too...

If you think there is no connection mistakes, setting problem or equipment mulfunction then i say you bought the wrong speakers. My 602s are powered by Rotel RSX1056 and i am really satisfied with the sound quality (definitely enough treble for me).

[grit]

Are the brass binding post connectors on the speakers in place? Look at the B&W speaker manual, and then check out the back of one of your speakers. Sounds like they're missing/disconnected.

[dyazdani]

I agree. I'd check the binding posts on the speakers, make sure the jumpers are right. Then I'd jump to settings, i.e. channel balance, etc on the receiver.

[monk_d_syple]

Hi fellas cheers for the prompt response. What exactly are the brass binding connections? It's not that I'm not getting treble. It's I'm getting a very bassy sound. This causes for very poor dialogue (movies, lyrics). I've also noticed that I have a lot of spare cable (spks to amps) lying. wouldn't this cause interference? I'm also getting a hiss from my speakers when I turn the amps on. Well your response sort of reassures me a bit. At least now I know I didn't spend all this money for garbage. I'll keep fighting. Maybe I'll end up a pro. Please keep helping me, I'm like a fish out of water here.

[dyazdani]

See the picture below, they are brass plates that connect the upper and lower freqency binding posts together. If you didn't have the plates and only attached speaker cable to the bottom posts, you would have no upper range frequency sound.

[Kens1]

Make sure the negative/ positive sides of the speaker wires are not crossed also - this would make the speakers out of phase. With all the amps there is a good possibility something is hooked up wrong.

[monk_d_syple]

Ok. It's all setup correctly at the back, the brass connectors are in. Did you guys bi-amp yours? In the manual they keep talking about putting a foam plug in the port tubes. I don't seem to have that. Secondly does this really change anything? Do you think it's my room that's causing the bassy sound?

[dyazdani]

The foam plugs reduce the amount of bass the speakers produce. How far are your speakers from the wall? You should have them 2-3 ft away if possible. If you can send more exact dimensions of your room I can take a look. Pictures would work great too.

I would check and double check all connections to/from receiver and to/from amps. Also, see if there is a "reset" function on the receiver, it may help to correct a setting that may have changed by accident.

Let us know what happens.

[grit]

Those foam plugs are usually in the packing inside the box. Take the packing inserts out and turn 'em upside down. I'll bet ya find the foam plugs.

You've got great gear, there's just something else amiss. You don't have any contour or treble/bass settings adjusted?

[monk_d_syple]

My room is not great. It's about 4 by 6 meters. The speakers are about 3meters from my listening area (can't do better). I placed the speakers 20 cm away from the wall (can't do any better). The cables (spkrs to amp) are pretty long with a lot of spare. I'm going to try and check whether the positive/negatives are well set, but the technician (who I poorly rate) really made a mess with the cabling and it will take a while to untangle everything. I might start from scratch, could be a good training method. Did I mention I have a bare room next to my listening room. The walls have pics but the floor is wooden (2 by 3m). Concerning the foam, I have a feeling the technician took off with them, since he took all the boxes with him. I do recall the sound being better prior to the installation of the sub. that was delivered and installed a week later. I will work on it tonight. Thanks again guys, I really appreciate your help.

[Aussie Geoff]

I do recall the sound being better prior to the installation of the sub. that was delivered and installed a week later.

You could have the subwoofer set too high. Even if this is set to 0 dB on the processor, of the level control on the sub is too high the bass will dominate and ruin the rest of the sound... Try gently turning the subwoofer volume down using the knob on the subwoofer... If this works you will need to recalibrate your systems levels using test tones and a sound pressure level meter (such as those for $39 from Radio Shack or Tandy)

Geoff

[monk_d_syple]

Ya I will check that. He did set the sub way too high and I did bring it down, but I never checked the tone levels after that. I will do that too. What does a sound pressure leveler do exactly? No one responded to this yet, are long cables a big deal?

[audioqueso]

Cable length will not alter the sound at an audible level. A 20 foot cable is going to sound the same as a 3 foot cable. The benefit of a shorter cable is that it has less chance of introducing noise interference.

[monk_d_syple]

My set up. the photo is taken from the empty room beside.

[dyazdani]

Nice setup. The first thing I notice is that your speakers appear to be pretty far apart compared to where you sit (unless it's just the angle of the picture). Second, you have no toe-in on the speakers, they are pointed directly ahead. Both of these things would have a negative effect on the center image and make vocals somewhat incoherent.

The above would be for 2 channel music, shouldn't have as much (or any) effect on voices in HT due to the center channel.

I would move you speakers a little closer together and point them a little towards your listening position and see what happens.

[monk_d_syple]

Ok. will do. I also moved the center spkr a little away from the wall. About 30 cm. It made quite a difference. You think I need to fill my walls and floor? I set all the fronts to small. See what happens. I'm going to the dealer 2mrw, to ask about the foams.

[grit]

I'm NO expert. With that in mind, let me say that when I moved to a Pergo-floor residence, the acoustics SUCKED. Horrible echo. I had to put a LOT of stuff around to absorb sound bouncing everywhere. In the photo, there does not seem to be a lot of stuff to absorb sound. The other thing I noticed is that your speakers are VERY close to the walls. I try to keep the back an sides of my speakers at least 18" from any wall (24" if you can help it at all).

[dyazdani]

Monk,

How are things going with your system? Did you get a chance to move things around a bit?

[monk_d_syple]

Hi. Well, actually I have a new thread, titiled trading in my 602s for.... Basically I went to the dealership and inquired about the foams. I got talking to the salesperson there and we went to the listening room, so that I could compare. Problem was he didn't have 602 5 s3 or the lcr60. So we tested the 603s and the 604s. The 603s sounded a bit like mine. The sound was less enveloped than the 604s but more than the 602s. The 604s were really good and basically, the sound I was looking for. He set a deal with me. Trade in my 60, 602s for the lcr600 and 604. He will include a hifi stand and installation (this time he will bring in a good guy, who will clean up the messy cabling the other guy did). I will also test bi-wiring. Ok so this came with a price. basically I will owe him about $1000. Very good deal considering the stand costs about $400. Best part is, if I'm not happy the tech will return with the equipment. but for what I heard in the store, it should be good. Well I'll keep you posted. Do think my room size will handle 604s?

[RNKC]

Do think my room size will handle 604s?

My room is about the same size as yours, although the composition of my room is quite different. (I've got an angled wall on one side and reasonably thick carpet everywhere.) I'm running N802 and it's actually OK. A (much) bigger room would be better for obvious reasons, but I would think 604 would do nicely in a room your size.

On other points, I agree with grit. Try toeing in your speakers a bit and moving them slightly closer to the couch. You may also want to try a different (thicker) carpet and maybe throw a few large plants in the room as well.

[dyazdani]

Yes, your room will be fine with the 604s. You still need to have them closer together and closer to the couch (a couple feet from the wall would be nice). Then play around with the toe-in until you get the sound you want - tonality, imaging, etc.

[Holland]

I had the 601 s3 and also found it a bit too strong on the low end, but not too the extend that I could understand voices.
If you also have this problem in 2 channel, it could be related to indeed your room, or with the amplification, esp the processor. If its more in 5 channel it could be a problem with your center channel speaker.
If in the shop you felt the 603 sounded the same as your 602 then its more likely the speakers fault. Altrough IMO the 601 produces enough treble.
I would ask if you could first try the 604 out in your room before closing the deal.

Hope you find the sound which your looking for

[monk_d_syple]

The processor? I'm using the Denon avr1905. How exactly is it affecting the sound since I'm using Music fidelity amps to run the speakers.

[RobP]

Monk, By looking at your picture that you provided, I think that your biggest improvement would be in some acoustical treatments, your front wall is bare of any treatments, plus those sheer curtains dont really offer much in cutting down the reflection from the large glass area. Room treatment is probably one of the most important aspects of any audio system. You may try some bass traps in the corners, some panels behind each of the L&R speakers and the center channel. These can be made fairly cheap yourself or you can purchase them, it just depends on how much you want to spend.
Also you may want to play with that glass table directly in front of you, reflections from that table will wreak havoc on your center information.

I see alot of people spend thousands upon thousands of dollars in upgrading their equipment because it just does not sound right, but no money on the room treatment or design. Get your acoustics in order and you will really be amazed what you will hear. :T

[Holland]

The processor? I'm using the Denon avr1905. How exactly is it affecting the sound since I'm using Music fidelity amps to run the speakers.

There could be something wrong with your processor in which high frequency is lost or something, or too much bass put out?

I agree about the room, but Iam also very curious how the will 604s sounds in your room.