B&W VERY sensitive to position

[tboooe]

Wow! I heard that b&w were sensitive to speaker position but I did not realize just how sensitive. Tonight I was listening to my dm601s3 in my bedroom and i heard a definite bias of the sound towards the left speaker, something I never noticed before. At first I thought I it was the song but this continued to happen with other songs. So I looked for other explanations and I noticed that my wife had put a few things on our dresser which I thought may have caused this bias. So I proceed to remove one object, then another, then another...next thing I knew, I had cleared off the entire dresser except for the speakers. Still no luck. I then checked all of the speaker cables, then the amp. Still nothing. Just when I thought there was something wrong with the speaker, I noticed that the right speaker was slightly, and I mean very slightly, maybe 1/8" toed out and pushed back another 1/4" toward the wall. After I re-positioned the right speaker everything was back to perfection! Nice smooth spread with a semi-focused central phantom image.

Needless to say I am very surprised at how much positioning affects the b&w's. I am going to play with the positioning of my 805S now and see if I can get any better imaging.

Regarding positioning, I have alwasy used a simple straight ahead orientation. I have heard/read that a lot of people use a slightly toed in orientation. I find that the phantom central image becomes too focused at a single point. I prefer a nice spread of sound across the sound stage with a slighy bias towards the center for the vocals. What are people's thoughts on this. Is there a proper way things should sound?

[jim777]

Is there a proper way things should sound?

Yes, the way you prefer actually

I just want vocals to sound natural, so that means at a slight angle. I don't want my speakers directly pointing at me because I loose too much stereo image (I would need to put my speakers further apart and I can't...)

[RobP]

I have mine slightly toed in, but that is just my preference, whatever sounds best to you is what matters, play around with them a bit and have a listen.

[caleb]

You will also notice that distance away from walls at the back and sides will affect the sound to quite a large degree.

[bigburner]

I find that toe-in is the main adjustment that I need to make. I think that this is related to the volume coming from my sub which is next to the right front.

[mr_m687]

You all mention a small toe in to what degree do you toe them in? Where does the center of the speaker hit you at your listening position?

[tboooe]

mr.m687: it really depends on your setup and your listening prefs. In my situation, the listention position is not at an equal distance away from the spacing of the speakers. I also prefer a spread of the sound with only a slight bias towards the center for the vocals. Under these conditions, I only toe in (from straight ahead) about 1/8" to 1/4". When I do this, the speaker faces intersect at a point somewhere pretty far behind me. If I do anymore, I find the sound to get too focused at the center and I do get as good a wide sound stage. Of course, this is only my preferences and what works best in my listening area.

[K.K.]

Has anyone tried positioning your speakers using a software such as ETF5? Just wondering how much success you've had and whether it's worth buying these things to save time and effort.

[bigburner]

mr m687, I do the same as tboooe - the direction of the speakers intersects behind me.

[jlee]

You will also find that the amount of toe-in that results in good sound is a large function of the room treatment. With the side walls untreated, having the speakers straight ahead will result in a lot of reflected sound off the side walls and the "illusion" of a wider stereo image... but this image is produced by a combination of reflected and direct sound and is therefore not as "hifi or hi quality"... I found that as I treated the walls more and more, I could toe in the speakers to the point where they were pretty much pointing at my ears and STILL get a HUGE stereo image that extended past both walls... almost all the sound was direct sound and therefore of higher fidelity.

[SRT-10 Viper]

I read somewhere (and it works well for me) to point the speakers at an object centered 6 feet behind you.

[scottielee]

tweeter alignment

last night, i discovered that for almost 2 years, i have been listening to my signature 805 not properly setup 8O

during a conversation about other speakers which provide more details than my monitors, my dealer (what a fine gentleman) suggested to separate my monitors by 71.5 inches measured from tweeter to tweeter. after adjusting from 60" to 70" without additional toe-in, i heard a lesser sound that was not focused with a hollow center. i then aligned the tweeters to aim straight for my ears at about 30 degrees toe-in and "holy cow!! why didn't i do this before!?!" :E :E

now the sound has a bigger impact, added body, wider sound stage, and is more engaging and lively. most importantly, i hear more details. the upgrade bug has left my building.

have a wonderful day!
happy scott

p.s. my livingroom is 25'L x 15'W x 10'H. my sofa is 5' from the speakers, which are now 70" apart with 30 degrees toe-in and 3' from the 15' back wall.

[misterdoggy]

Yeah you really have to play with them for months before you find the spot that works best

[tboooe]

wow scottielee...that is a lot of toe in. did your dealer recommend the 71" speaker width because of your room size and listening positioning or is that some magical number? i have noticed that many dealers also use significant toe in as well in their listening rooms. my listening area is very odd...7' x 14' with one side completely open to a vaulted ceiling living room. i will definitely try playing around with more toe in. usually i have never gone beyond a few degrees so that the speakers are aiming somewhere behind my head. i wonder what it will sound like with the speakers pointing directly at my ears?

[Eliav]

Hi
I have spent a lot of time playing with my 803s position, it is now 6.5 feet away from the rear wall, 4.7 feet away from the side walls and 7 feet apart.very nice wide and deep imaging.
I found that a slight toe in also changes bass perception, when toed in about 1.5'' lower frequencies sound more accurate. Anybody had a similar experience ?
Eliav

[Pieter]

Anyone ever find they want to move their listening position closer or further away from the speakers depending on how a particular CD was mixed and produced?

[jim777]

Anyone ever find they want to move their listening position closer or further away from the speakers depending on how a particular CD was mixed and produced?

When I listen to Hotel California (Eagles), I'm impressed by the sound stage that I have when I sit on the floor, where I make an equalateral triangle with the speakers. The best position is precise, a few inches forward or back doesn't give the best ambiance.

[scottielee]

wow scottielee...that is a lot of toe in.

i am also surprised by the wonderful results of what seems to be a lot of toe-in. i previously thought too much toe-in would shrink the sound stage, but it is not true. proper toe-in provides better imaging and portrays a more defined stage which feels wider than an out of focus one. i also realized that without sufficient toe-in/tweeter alignment, some treble details were shot passed by my ears and not heard.

did your dealer recommend the 71" speaker width because of your room size and listening positioning or is that some magical number?

my dealer didn't say how he arrived at the number. i will ask him next time.

page 1 of the signature 805 manual writes: "Keep the speakers at least 1.5m (about 60 inches) apart to maintain left-right separation." http://www.bwspeakers.com/downloadFi...805_manual.pdf

[RebelMan]

Scottie, I believe your listening position with repect to your speakers is playing a greater role in your observations than toe is. Ideally you want to achieve approximately a 30 degree listening postion from each speaker. The (new) locations of your speakers are within these limits.

For instance, if your speakers were say 3 feet apart (15 degrees) rather than ~6 feet or (30 degrees) and toe-in remained set at 45 degrees, you should notice a collapse in soundstaging. Therefore, both parameters (separation and toe) must be meticulously considered when positioning speakers for optimal results.

[tboooe]

james, can you elaborate on your post...i am not following...(sorry for being dense..got my mind on my speakers )

[scottielee]

Scottie, I believe your listening position with repect to your speakers is playing a greater role in your observations than toe is. Ideally you want to achieve approximately a 30 degree listening postion from each speaker. The (new) locations of your speakers are within these limits.

For instance, if your speakers were say 3 feet apart (15 degrees) rather than ~6 feet or (30 degrees) and toe-in remained set at 45 degrees, you should notice a collapse in soundstaging. Therefore, both parameters (separation and toe) must be meticulously considered when positioning speakers for optimal results.

i agree. in an equilateral triangle setup between speakers and listening chair, speaker toe-in should be 30 degrees. if the triangle is not equilateral, toe-in should be adjusted accordingly in order for the tweeters to keep aim at the listening chair.

actually, after a few more looks at my current setup, the toe-in is more close to 30 degrees than 45 degrees. my apologies for the initial misjudgment ops: i have also revised my previous post.

[Pieter]

Scott,

According to the specs on the B&W site the horizontal dispersion for the Signature 805 is 40°, which is less than the 60° of either the Nautilus or 805S.

This could explain your need for more toe-in.