Ears bleeding with new 805S

[tboooe]

Oh man..I am trying to be patient with burn in but I just cant listen to my new 805S for too long before my ears start hurting, and this is at only slightly above normal listening levels. I know these speakers take a long time to burn in (i have read in this forum in access of 300 hours) but I think I am running out of patience. I listen to at least 2 hours of music a night after work. What used to be something I looked forward to everyday is now something I dread! Right now, my little 601 S3 in the bedroom actually sound better. Those only took a few hours to break in.

I know the 805S will come alive soon but I dont think my ears can take it!

I have thought about leaving my speakers on all day while I am at work but that is not possible because our nanny is home with my daughter and I dont think they would enjoy listenting to Style Council or Lisa Stansfield all day. The prefer the Wiggles!

Anyway, just venting a bit. Looking forward to the day when the speakers finally sound great!

[PewterTA]

Funny the first time I heard the 805Ss was brandnew out of the box at the dealer I go to (I helped him unpack them) and we both thought they sounded absolutely amazing right out of the box.

Is it possible that it could be the placement in the room and the room treatments that are causing some problems? The "break in" period really only increases the base response and does smooth out the highs a little bit, but from the sound of things I don't think that will be enough improvement for you to enjoy them.

Though why you like your 601S3s better is a little bit odd...

I'll give you my 602S3s for your 805s!!!! I'll give you all 4 that I have... lol.

[tboooe]

Pewter, at this point I think I will take your offer! I dont want to get into arguments about bright vs warm but my 601 do sound warmer/fuller and I do not have any fatigue or hurting ears after listenting to them. I am running different cables (Audioquest for the 601 and Nordost Blue Heavens for the 805S) and amps (SONOS 50W for 601 and Rotel 1080 for the 805S).

I dont disagree with you that maybe the placement in the room or the acoustics has something to do with it. Dont get me wrong, the sound is pretty good (very clear, precise, a little thin, a little lacking in the bass but that is expected). But my ears hurt! If this continues I will have to seroiusly consider your offer. Toss in the trans am and you have yourself a deal.

[mr_m687]

I have a new pair of 804S and they make my ears hurt too. I think I have around 80 hours on this pair, how about you? I know what you're going through I think we should both sell and go with another brand, B&W are over rated unless you put them in a room with all padded walls. Then you look like your sitting in a mental hospital room and you probably should be after spending all your money on wall treatment instead of a pair a speakers that actually sound enjoyable. They are well worth $1000 but come on get real for $4000 they should drive you to work too.

[tboooe]

mr m687:

it seems like we agree a quite a few things . No room treatments or mental hospital decor for me!

My 805's only have about 20 hours.

I guess the big question is, if we sell them what brand to consider? I have also auditioned the Sonus Faber and Vienna Acoustics, both offer very warm sounds but a bit too laid back, I felt like I was missing a lot of detail. The search continues for musical nirvana.

Actually, if you ever want to sell your 804's let me know. My brother has been wanting these for a while now. I dont like him that much anyway so who cares if his ears bleed...

[PewterTA]

To be honest, my 604s and 602s that I have around the room (full 7.1 setup) all sounded "rough" the first month I had them. Which I would figure I put about a hour or two a night on them listening to TV/Movies/Music...after the month I had them they sounded really good. It sounded really good when one night I just cranked it....to the point where it was just really really really loud, but I wanted to "jam." I did that for maybe one song...and then couldn't stand it anymore.

I tell you what, after that, EVERYTHING about the speaker sounded so much better... Maybe you should try (after you put a lot of hours on the speakers like 200ish), just crank it up with something that really gets them going...walk out of the room if you have to for a song or two. Turn it off, come back to it the next day and you'll be amazed at how good they sound.

That's a secret I've used on about 8 different people's setups...ever single one said theirs sounded better after doing what I did... I think it really "loosens" the speakers and makes them more flexible without damaging the speakers...

Do not play them so loud as it distorts, but loud enough where it's a slight bit painful to listen to at that volume (not because they sound so harsh :P )....

Can give that a try.

[RebelMan]

mr_m687, you have expressed your dissatisfaction with B&W speakers (yours in particular) for some time now. It makes me wonder how well you did your homework. What other brands did you have in mind or compare the B&W's to before making your acquisition? Were you looking for detail, accuracy, imaging and sound staging? The B&W's are very capable in delivering on this basis and they do so very well. I grant you the 804Ss don't deliver the amount of bass you are looking for, but they weren't intended to. That is reserved for the larger 802D's and up. However, they are tight and authoritive.

With this in mind the B&W's will not be all things to all people. If you are unhappy, then you probably need to do more research and find the speaker that suits you best. To say that B&W is overrated is debatable. They are expensive no doubt but you knew that going in. If you were looking for a ride, they will take you on one, but it won't be to work.

[RebelMan]

A quick comment on acoutical treatments. Have you ever entered into an empty room and heard the echoes of your voice while you spoke? If you like that effect then treatments aren't for you. To state that treatments aren't necessary is like stating all speakers are the same.

For the technically unaware, the finest auditoriums in the world are acoustically treated. Gee, I wonder why? :roll:

[tboooe]

Rebelman, its not that I dont believe in the effects of acoustic treatments...on the contrary I totally do. My point is, for the normal person, he or she should not have to "treat" their listeniing environment. The speaker should be picked to work with however their room is normally configured. I am not saying it is wrong for "average" people to do so either. Treatments are probably out of reach both financially and technically for most people. That is why I think in most cases the speaker should fit the room and not the other way around, unless you have the passion and money to do otherwise. To each their own but this latter approach is definitely a smaller percentage of the audio enthusiast population. Sorry if I was not clear.

[Andrew M Ward]

DO people listen to speakers ...

Does anybody listen to the speakers at the store anymore?

I sold speakers in a Hi-fi environment all through college and no one ever returned a pair based on "My ears are bleeding" as though they were totally shocked at the sound once they got home.

How does this happen?

May I suggest BOSE products, they don't really use tweeters, you'll probably love them. Oh, and you can buy them online, you don't even have to listen to them before you buy them. That way you can be assured of more surprises once you get them home... :rofl:

Just my 2 cents and a heavy dose of sarcasm...
Andrew M Ward

[tboooe]

Andrew, i did listen to the speakers for a LONG time at the dealer and they soudned great, which is why i bought them. This is also the reason why I understand the need for burn in. If you read my post, you would understand that I was only venting a bit and wanting the speakers to hurry up and settle in. "Anyway, just venting a bit. Looking forward to the day when the speakers finally sound great!"

So chill a bit with a sarcasm....

[RebelMan]

tboooe, your point is well taken. When B&W conducts their pass/fail tests (on every speaker they make mind you), they do so in an anechoic chamber, which provides the ideal conditions. I am not suggesting we need to construct an environment such as this in our homes. What I am suggesting is that we don't put the blame soley on the speaker because it didn't measure up (sound right) to our expectations.

B&W speakers perform as they are intended. To achieve this level of performance in our homes, however, requires that we emulate as close as possible the "ideal conditions." The further we deviate from these conditions the less likely the speaker will perform as intended. The effects of this are to falsely blame the speakers. How else should B&W manufacture and test their speakers? In your home or mine? Remember, B&W's mission is to reproduce music as faithfully as possible, by not taking anything away or adding anything to what we hear.

[mr_m687]

You'll have to wait till around 150 hours your not even close.

[Mark_C.]

I won't give you an exact timetable, but new speakers take some getting used to. Be patient before your start shopping for other speakers. Allow some time to familiarize yourself with the 805s. Listen at lower levels to music that you're familiar with for a few weeks and then decide whether you don't get along. Happy listening.

[js24]

B&Ws are good speakers but NOT the only speakers in this planet
keep your options open.. if you don't like it? that's all that matters
but do give more time and experiment with the positioning first...

btw, what you hear at the dealers does not really matter when you bring'em home... it is a ruler you can take to compare different speakers but by no means will give you an absolute idea how it will sound at home..

think of it this way...any descent looking chicks can be drop-dead hot in nightclubs- under heavy makeups, half-naked outfits, dim lights and a few kamikazee shots... but are they really when you bring them home???
:B :rofl: :E

[tboooe]

js24:

now that is an analogy I can understand....I have done my fair share of beer goggling...so I know what you mean....

[Andrew M Ward]

B&Ws are good speakers but NOT the only speakers in this planet
keep your options open..

In fact there are approximately 600 speaker manufacturers world wide...

585 approximately do not manufacture their own tweeters. This should help you, because the majority will be using the same tweet or similarly mass produced tweets.

Thus eliminating the tweeter issue...
Feel free to research those numbers, they're older figures but still should be fairly accurate.

Just 2 more cents
Andrew M Ward

[js24]

wow! that leaves 15 speakers to compare?! I wish all of us can have that luxury of comparing 15 speakers before we make purchases...

speaking of driver manufactueres...true there are only a handful of them....- Focal, scanspeak, audiotechnology...+ a few more...but to my ears, wilson, Focal JM, eggleston, von schweiker, aerial.. etc...all sound different... so as B&Ws... moreover, two titanium drivers don't sound the same if they have different modification, xover, mounting etc.. (i.e. 703's *nautilus tweeter* vs. original N800 series Nautilus tweeter)

we all know speaker engineering doesn't stop at drivers

more importantly, each one of us has his/her OWN *nirvana*....
I like my B&Ws for what they are, not for what I want them to be.... ( I think I'm gonna make this as my slogan :B)

[mr_m687]

Tboooe,
Move them!!! Trust me move them around especially close to the back wall. I thought speakers in this price range needed to be far away from the back wall. Man was I wrong put them closer to that back wall and all the harsh sound goes away. My 804S sound like a different speaker and I moved them back 2.5 inches from where I had them.

[js24]

you always give me smiles, mr687
glad to hear it works better for ya every day :T

[james_dmi]

Pewter, at this point I think I will take your offer! I dont want to get into arguments about bright vs warm but my 601 do sound warmer/fuller and I do not have any fatigue or hurting ears after listenting to them. I am running different cables (Audioquest for the 601 and Nordost Blue Heavens for the 805S) and amps (SONOS 50W for 601 and Rotel 1080 for the 805S).

I dont disagree with you that maybe the placement in the room or the acoustics has something to do with it. Dont get me wrong, the sound is pretty good (very clear, precise, a little thin, a little lacking in the bass but that is expected). But my ears hurt! If this continues I will have to seroiusly consider your offer. Toss in the trans am and you have yourself a deal.

Have you tried swapping the speakers to your other system?

All Nordost cables I have ever used are very bright, couple this with the detailed and unforgiving sound of the 800 series and you shine a very bright spot lamp on the output of the amp. I have tried Rotel amps before and found it far to harsh with my speakers, not to say that this is a problem with rotel as my brothers 1090 sounds great with his Tannoy D700's, but then those are very laid back. It could be that you have just picked a combination that doesn’t work. I suggest borrowing an Arcam A32 and try that instead. I have heard this with the 805S and it sounds fantastic and you can upgrade it later by adding a P35 that will be much better again. There are many other amps out there that may suit you better but this happens to be a combination I have heard. If you do try this grab some QED X-Tube 400 cables as well as this is what was connecting the system I heard.

[Andrew M Ward]

wow! that leaves 15 speakers to compare?! I wish all of us can have that luxury of comparing 15 speakers before we make purchases...

Speaking of driver manufactures...true there are only a handful of them....- Focal, scanspeak, audiotechnology...+ a few more...but to my ears, wilson, Focal JM, eggleston, von schweiker, aerial.. Etc...All sound different...

I was primarily making reference to:
Audax; Audax tweeters populate a huge percentage of "Speakers" out on the market today. They have a very noticeable sound to them; in fact it's almost instantly recognizable.

JM (Focal) Makes tweeters for Wilson and a few others, they have a very noticeable sound, which I happen to really enjoy.

There is an art and a science to making tweeters, that's why so few speaker companies make tweeters, they can't. Sorry, but if they could they would...

Focal (JM) and B&W in my opinion make the two best tweeters at any price or on any range of speaker.

Of course I'm mostly a tweeter snob... and widely disliked on the forum.
So there you have it.

Just 2 more cents
Andrew M Ward

[scottielee]

may i add that acapella's plasma tweeters are superb also.

[JetFlyGuy]

I agree that it would be nice if we didn't have to treat our rooms, but the reality is just about every room needs some form of treatment no matter what brand of speakers you are using. As was mentioned earlier in this thread, many rooms make your actual human voice sound harsh and echoic, so imaging what similar acousics can do to a speaker that is trying to replicate that voice.

[jlee]

Tboooe,
Move them!!! Trust me move them around especially close to the back wall. I thought speakers in this price range needed to be far away from the back wall. Man was I wrong put them closer to that back wall and all the harsh sound goes away. My 804S sound like a different speaker and I moved them back 2.5 inches from where I had them.

The harsh sound can possibly be because of the rear wall reflections. The closer you get to the rear wall, the bass will increase but the mid and highs will become clearer due to less smearing from the reflections off the back wall. They will be so close that your brain interprets it as 1 event and will basically ignore the reflection. The 2.5" seems small, but can be the difference between what your brain interprets as individual or simultaneous events when the sound waves arrive to your ears.

Before, when I was mentioning the ratio of 1.3, usually, it's good to keep the side wall and rear wall distances different by about 1.3 or more to avoid a bass resonance at a particular frequency (certain bass freq. will be emphasized which is a bad thing).

Each speaker has a certain resonant freq. You can "cancel" this by positioning it approximately half a wave length from the back wall. This usually results in unrealisticly high distances of about 7-8 ft from the rear wall for most speakers, so the compromise is to position it as far away from the rear wall as possible while still getting good bass and then padding the rear wall to cancel a lot of the reflections. You generally want to keep a minimum of 33" from each wall as well (this is based on the speed of sound and how the brain interprets reflections).

One reason the SCM1 sound so good in the high and mid is because they are right on the wall... it took a lot of padding to get my 804 to sound as good as the SCM1 in the mid and high in terms of clarity... of course, the 804 offers many other benefits that the SCM1 cannot even pretend to accomplish, but that's another story.

[js24]

may i add that acapella's plasma tweeters are superb also.

ah~ plasma 8O....why do you always get to say the cool stuff, scottie.. while I'm just blablaing about mere titaniums... :B

[mr_m687]

soft.

[js24]

Andrew,
ok, then I have a question
what do you think about the *sapphire* tweeter? ( I forgot who made it...) Do you think it is just another *hype* or is that as good as diamond..???

thanks

[audioqueso]

Speakers are good.
B&W are speakers.

lol
Maybe this will cool it down a bit... maybe? lol
Man... this topic is getting rough, huh? lol

[tboooe]

thanks for the reply everyone...I fiddled around with speaker positioning last night and found one that smoothed everything out, created a great and deep soundstage..in other words just like what I heard at the dealer...the only problem is the speakers are right in the middle of my family room!!! The speakers are about 4 ft from any wall and about 6 feet apart.

This is definitely not going to work but its nice to hear the speakers really shine. I can definitely position the speakers away from any side walls but I think the most I can do is about 6" from a back wall..other wise they will be right in the middle of the walking path.

I am also going to audition some more cables...I also want to start looking at amps to. I am going to try classe and parasound..i hear those are very smooth and "warm" sounding amps.

Thanks again everyone...i will report back what I find out.

[akhter]

thanks for the reply everyone...I fiddled around with speaker positioning last night and found one that smoothed everything out, created a great and deep soundstage..in other words just like what I heard at the dealer...the only problem is the speakers are right in the middle of my family room!!! The speakers are about 4 ft from any wall and about 6 feet apart.

This is definitely not going to work but its nice to hear the speakers really shine. I can definitely position the speakers away from any side walls but I think the most I can do is about 6" from a back wall..other wise they will be right in the middle of the walking path.

I am also going to audition some more cables...I also want to start looking at amps to. I am going to try classe and parasound..i hear those are very smooth and "warm" sounding amps.

Thanks again everyone...i will report back what I find out.

May i recommend the ARCAM AVR300? I found that comes close to it in the $2000 range.

[gauss]

Just adding to what has already been said: Speakers need not sound the same in the store as they do when you use them in your own room. Different acoustics (yes, it is important even though I would hate to "treat" my own living room), different sources, amplifiers and cables all contribute to the sound. By auditioning in a store, even if it is with the same electronics you will use at home, will give you a hint as to how the speakers may sound in your home but you can never be really sure until you hook them up in your home. For this reason you should always try speakers in your own home before buying, if that is at all possible. I have bought speakers based on in store demonstrations and this have caused me some regret (and loss of money). Keep in mind though, a speaker that does not sound so great in the store may sound much better in your home (a speaker sounding too laid back in the store may be just perfect in your room).

Another thing that I would like to comment on is the tweeters. I am not at all sure that the tweeters as such is the cause of ear bleeding in all cases. Many speakers today have a (slightly) prominent upper midrange to lower treble, this may well cause ears to bleed. Maybe it's the how the speakers are voiced rather than the drive units that cause ears to bleed. Speaking of tweeters, I believe that one of the very finest is made by Dynaudio. JM Labs' beryllium tweeter is good but their previous tweeters have called to much attention to themselves. The new offerings from B&W (both S and D versions) are also quite good.

I have auditioned quite a few B&W speakers recently, my current PMC FB1+ speakers (using a textile dome tweeter!), replacing a much more expensive PMC IB2 speakers (approx. $12000 where I live, too much bass in my room) are slightly bright on many recordings, although they are pretty good allround speakers. But at a HiFi-show I happened to audition 800D :P :T . I have listened to 802D and 803D at three different stores, and 804S and 805S at two different stores. The funny thing is that I thought that all the D versions sounded slightly laid back at all occasions. As if they never really came to life, if you know what I mean. The same goes for the 804S, less laid back in comparison to the bigger brothes at lower volumes but slightly strained at higher volume settings. 805S however sounded just right, event at higher volumes, in the same room as 804S, with lesser electronics behind them. Why? The only reason I can think of is that the speakers were placed at two different walls (room acoustics again ). I then had the opportunity to try 804S in my own home and make a direct comparison to my present speakers. I am actually thinking of buying either 803S or 803D but for various reasons a home loan could not be arranges with any of these. In my system I found that 804S was definitely not lacking in the midbass area, in fact, the lower bass they produced was also very good. Were they bright? No, not at all, in comparison to PMC FB1+ they were less bright but still less enjoyable with some recordings I fed them (I avoid the phrase "poor recordings" as I believe that this is variable and refers to all recordings that do not sound good over a certain system). PMC FB1+ has bass output down to 25Hz (admittedly some dB's down) but still I felt that 804S produced more bass and punch in my room. What took me by surprise was how much I enjoyed the tonal balance of 804S, piano and strings in particular sounded just right. With some recordings I got the feeling that they strained to reproduce lower bass but that could only be expected given their size and specifications.

To sum up my experiences, 804S sounded much better in my home than they did in the store, I really miss these spekers now that they are gone. I consider them to be slightly analytical (but not at all bright, see above) which may be one reason why some people find them and 805S to make their ears bleed. The ear bleeding may also be associated with their nature to faithfully reproduce the bass, without adding much in the midbass (which is quite common), this will lead one to turn up the volume in order to obtain what I usually call the "loudness factor". And then there is the question of acoustics as well, some rooms do absorb a lot of midbass energy which usually makes higher frequencies more prominent and as a consequence, ears start to bleed after some time. I have auditioned many speakers at home (though I would have liked to try more which would have stopped me from some regrettable purchases) and I have found no rule on how to translate their sound in store to how they will sound in my own room. I once heard Totem speakers sound marvellous at a show and decided to try them at home. Two different models sounded terrybly bright and fatiguing in my room despite some magazine's test report claiming "they should be easy on the ear".

Ah, and about running in. I totally agree with someone above who said that most of the improvements have to do with bass and a slight evening out of the higher frequencies. B&W also claim that a few (15?) hours run-in time is all that is needed.

I almost forgot, with many speakers (stand mounts) the height of the stands play an important role in how the sound is perceived. With speakers placed at different height (i.e. different height of stands) the speakers may sound more or less bright. Well worth trying out if you have the opportunity.

Just my 2 cents :Z .