How Bassy are Basses?

**audioqueso** · 18 July 2005, 09:50 Monday

Tight. Here's the example I always tell my friends. You've heard lightning strike, right? You ever heard it strike pretty close in distance to you so that it sounded like a REALLY loud boom? You hear the strike, boom, and it instantly fades away, right? Play a movie with lightning, a lot of speakers will play the lightning strike and you'll hear the boom like 4 seconds later still going on. That's not tight, and in techno music it might be pleasant to have such 'boominess', but for everything else, you'll want something that replicates the exact sound as it sounds in real life. Hope this helped. Good luck.

**scottielee** · 18 July 2005, 12:09 Monday

i value tuneful bass. when playing bass string music (jazz, baroque, orchestra), if you can clearly hear variations of bass notes, and not just a few indistinguishable booms, your system and room are doing well.

**audioqueso** · 18 July 2005, 17:18 Monday

Exactly. When you can hear a double bass pluck and actually here the double bass the way it should, not exaggerated or anything overdone. Nice, tight, accurate to the real thing.

So scottielee, since we're in the topic, how would you rate the Velodyne in regards to this manner. Does it perform accurately? Pros? Cons?

**scottielee** · 18 July 2005, 18:01 Monday

i can't say enough good things about the dd-12. it is fun to setup and very satisfying to listen to. bass feels like quick punches from a skillful boxer hitting my chest. full of control and presence.

my system bass response charts here: http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=14463

i only wish the cabinet finish to be as nice as the signature 805 (really pushing it)

**jim777** · 18 July 2005, 19:36 Monday

Originally posted by scottielee

bass feels like quick punches from a skillful boxer hitting my chest. full of control and presence.

I need a sub :B

What would a sub add to my floorstanders (703)? Double bass sounds good; I'm missing something here?

**bigburner** · 19 July 2005, 07:54 Tuesday

jim777, I added an ASW750 to my CDM9NTs, and the improvement was enormous. Your 703s are the successor to the CDM9NTs and they sound virtually identical IMO. I believe that both the 703s and the CDM9NTs are lacking in bass. By this I mean bass that you can FEEL. Furthermore I believe that most narrow floorstanders lack the sort of bass that I'm referring to. There's something about a big speaker when it comes to bass.

Of all the upgrades that I have made, the ASW750 has made the biggest difference for a single component.

**xk8boy** · 19 July 2005, 08:43 Tuesday

This is all very interesting. Are ppl saying that floor standers can not produce enough bass!! SO how many are listening to stereo with a sub?

**weijst** · 19 July 2005, 10:26 Tuesday

Floorstanders do not necessarily produce enough bass. No matter how hard floorstanders try (e.g. Nautilus 801), they will have a hard time reaching the depths of a (decent) dedicated, powered subwoofer.

For HT in particularly it is advisable to add a sub as movie sequences not seldom include very low frequencies (explosions, earthquakes, stampedes etc.)

For music on the other hand, floorstanders can be sufficient (ofcourse we are talking about a decent floorstander here). However the favourable part of adding a subwoofer to a stereo system is it relieves the speakers and amp from some hard work of reproducing lower frequencies. In doing so the speakers are able to 'focus more' on reproducing the mids and highs and are less prone to vibrations that might 'colour' the higher frequencies. Furthermore, occasionally there are passages in music recording that might go as low as 40Hz (or even lower?)...

You should however be carefull in adding 'just any subwoofer' to your system as there are those that are more musical than others. Adding a slow, boomy sub to your stereo system for music listening, will likely ruin the entire experience...

**Mitchell** · 19 July 2005, 15:45 Tuesday

I am constantly amazed at the bass I get out of my 703's during casual listening.
If I am sitting with my feet up facing the speakers I feel the bass on the bottom of my feet. It also vibrates the table. I dont get the big boomy lows that a sub would generate or the muddy deep lows that speakers of lesser quality would generate but it seems more than adequate. I can always add a sub later on.

**xk8boy** · 20 July 2005, 04:18 Wednesday

Mitchell, that is some serious amount of air movement in the room. Unless you're either sitting right next to your speakers or you've got some long legs.

Would like some example plse. Mitchell, what CD/Track was you listen to?

**bigburner** · 20 July 2005, 06:27 Wednesday

Mitchell, do any of your friends own the latest Robert Plant CD "Mighty Rearranger"? If so, borrow it, put on track 2 "Shine It All Around" and then turn up the volume... a lot. Observe how your 703s cope.

In part 2 of this unlikely experiment, borrow an ASW750 from your friendly B&W dealer and listen to "Shine It All Around" again, making sure that you use the high pass filter in the sub so that your 703s only play 80Hz and above.

As your gear is almost the same as mine I'm betting that you'll experience the same big improvement that I did. It was like two different songs.

Here's a picture showing you how well my right CDM9NT and my new ASW750 are getting on with each other. Best of friends already!

Attached Files

**tboooe** · 20 July 2005, 12:34 Wednesday

Bigburner, I am curious about your comment "making sure that you use the high pass filter in the sub so that your 703s only play 80Hz and above."

I am seriously considering adding a REL Strata to my 805S speakers. One thing about the REL is that it takes full range signal directly from the amp. What bothers me is that my 805S will still be getting the full range signal as well. I would like to cross this signal over so the 805S can just concentrate on mids and highs. From what I understand, there is no way to do this in bypass mode on the receiver.

So what caught my eye about your comment, was that it sounds like the signal is first being passed through the ASW750, crossed over then sent out the the amp? The ASW has stereo speaker outputs? In other words: Receiver > ASW750 > Amp > Speakers. Does it do anything to degrade the sound other than a cross over? This is what I am concerned about, which is why I want to run in bypass mode.

Thanks for your help

**Mitchell** · 20 July 2005, 13:35 Wednesday

I sit approx 6 feet back from the plane of the speakers.
I dont think a dealer in NY would lend me a sub but I am sure the difference if tremoundous. On most jazz and classical the bass is fine, very articulate and enough to fill the room. On certain rock tracks it could clearly use some help to get the lows. I listen to alot of miles davis, steeley dan. On Rolling Stones Miss You I could clearly use more lower end bass. As I live in a NYC apt I dont know if my neighbors would appreciate a sub woofer. How much does the B&W sub cost anyway?

**bigburner** · 21 July 2005, 04:01 Thursday

tboooe, I've wired my ASW750 so that the output of the pre-amp goes to the input of the sub via 2 RCA interconnects, and the output of the sub goes to the input of my amp, also via 2 RCA interconnects. This enables the high-pass filter on the 750 to limit the frequencies being sent to my CDM9NT’s to 80Hz and above. This is pre-set on the 750. I've set the low-pass filter on the 750 to 80Hz so that the sub only plays 80Hz and below. I've found that this results in the best stereo image because the sub isn't duplicating frequencies being played on the 9NTs. If this configuration does something to degrade the sound, I'm afraid that I can't detect it.

I'm not knowledgeable about RELs but I understand that most models take their input from the amp's speaker cables, rather than than from the pre-amp via RCA cables. Lower end B&W subs such as the ASW650 are connected the same way. You then connect your satellite speakers directly to the output of the sub. This option is provided by B&W for people who own integrated amps that don't offer an external output from the pre-amp stage. B&W doesn't offer this option on their middle to high end models.

I don't know whether RELs handle the connection of satellite speakers in the same way as B&W but it shouldn't be hard to find out if you download the manual from REL's web site.

What model REL are you thinking of buying?

**bigburner** · 21 July 2005, 04:11 Thursday

Mitchell, I understand what you mean by being considerate to your neighbours. I live in a standalone house on a half acre section, and even in my situation I think of the neighbours. Unless I'm running a full-on party I usually turn it down before midnight because on a still evening I can hear the sub 100 yards away from the house (it could be further, but I haven't made the effort to find out).

**xk8boy** · 21 July 2005, 04:32 Thursday

The only example suggested so far is Robert Plant CD "Mighty Rearranger" from bigburner, any one else? anyone else care to share their cd collection?

I will experience setting the low-pass cross to a higher level. its currently sitting at 50Hz, which was recommended.

**bigburner** · 21 July 2005, 04:53 Thursday

xk8boy, you could also try "Jon Cleary and the Absolute Monster Gentlemen" which is a great CD but overmixed in the bass department. "Take My Love" and "So Damn Good" would be good tracks to go for on that CD.

Anything off "The Eminem Show" CD would also be a good test for bass performance. I suspect that I'm probably the only bloke of my age on this planet who likes that album.

80Hz seemed quite high to me for the low-pass setting on my sub. However recently I listened to my sub on its own (i.e. I turned the amp off) playing at 80Hz and below, and I was surprised how low that is. There was nothing melodic about the output!

**scottielee** · 21 July 2005, 09:25 Thursday

there is a short burst of bass strings notes in sarah mclachlan's angel (album: surfacing). the deep bass notes are played quickly and smoothly with good volume. a very revealing exercise for bass response.

**tboooe** · 21 July 2005, 11:18 Thursday

bigburner, thanks for your input. It really helps to clarify things. What you did is exactly what I want to do. I am not sure about the REL's though. Though they sound great, I dont know if I can wire them up the way you did with the B&W. I think the RELS only take signals from the amp or a sub output...And I dont hav a REL picked out yet. What would you suggest to match with an 805 or 804? What about the B&W sub? Thank you again for your response.

**jlee** · 21 July 2005, 17:44 Thursday

Originally posted by tboooe

bigburner, thanks for your input. It really helps to clarify things. What you did is exactly what I want to do. I am not sure about the REL's though. Though they sound great, I dont know if I can wire them up the way you did with the B&W. I think the RELS only take signals from the amp or a sub output...And I dont hav a REL picked out yet. What would you suggest to match with an 805 or 804? What about the B&W sub? Thank you again for your response.

You cannot go wrong with the Strata III. It works well with virtually any speaker you pair it with. If you like that, you can always upgrade.

For an 804 or 805, the Strata III is perfect.

And yes, you can hook it up the way the other guy described. All cables are included.

How Bassy are Basses?

How Bassy are Basses?

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