Nautilus 800 confusion

[kylek100]

This is my first time posting on this forum, so hello to everyone.

In the past year or so, my interest in audio has been revived by my girlfriend's father who is just about as into it as anyone I've ever seen. Right now, he's into Aerial Acoustic speakers and has that all the way around for both his home theater and stereo system. The system is comprised of an audio research stereo tube pre-amp, two bryston 7B-ST monoblocks, an esoteric dvd/SACD player, and Aerial 10T's. The system sounds incredible, as it should for almost 30 grand.

Now that you know a little about what he likes, my question comes in. I've always had a little thing about B&W. I love the style of the speakers and I now own them all the way around my setup, except for the sub. He's getting to a point where he's going to be building a new house soon, and is designing a dedicated theater room to accomodate his systems. He's been doing a lot of research into upgrading his two stereo speakers to Aerial's new 20T which go for about 25,000 a pair. I have been encouraging him to just take a look at B&W's highest end stuff. Unfortunately his opinion of B&W was scared back in the 80's which he had an underwhelming experience with some matrix 801's I believe he said they were. Regardless, as much as I love B&W, I am afraid to say I have had the same experience.

I attend college down in California, so when I bought my HTM7, I did not buy it from our local stereo shop I usually get stuff from. While I was there, I listened to their N800's and they sounded *terrible*. Honestly, listening to my 602's were a more pleasant experience. I am completely unable to come up with an explanation for this. I just recently listened to the 803D and it sounded phenomenal. It sounded easily 5 times better than my experience with the 800. And the 800 was indeed being powered by several large mcintosh poweramps.

Is there something wrong with my ears? I really would hate to have to tell him to not even waste his time with anything less than the 803D... The 800 to me, was obviously lacking any sort of bass, and did not have the sort of transparency I have heard with other 800 series speakers.

Does anyone know if a Signature 800D will ever be released?

I just need to rationalize all this for myself before I start trying to sell him on it.... Thanks in advance :-)

[chinets]

All 800 series are top of the line. 803D are superior to the rest of the 800 series no doubt ,but all the 800 series are serious Audophile speakers. You might have a preferance for one type of sound or another as many people do. Let your ears make the comparison as only you can choose the right speaker for yourself. Most people would say that the B & W 800 series are the best in its class and possibly some of the best speakers in the world ,but B & W have their own sound and the question you must ask yourself ,do I like this particular sound or not????
You have to have the right Amp. to make these 800 series sing as they demand lots of power. I have N803F and N804 R and Centre HTM1 with ASW 850 Sub and its just mesmerizing...biased yes but in my opinion the best speakers for Jazz and classical music. I mean the whole 800 series as a whole!!! Good luck with your selection but let yours ears choose and you will not be dissapointed!!!!

[PewterTA]

One thing with the 800 series....

Their sound is VERY much influenced by the Amp/Processor. Some combos make the 800s sound TERRIBLE. Other's make it sound BETTER than the Aerials.......

Bryston would match decently well, but I think Krell sounds even better with the 800 series...

If he's looking at those speakers (Aerial's), he needs to at least look at the 802Ds, if not the 800D/801Ds...

The differences make or break the speakers... ...and that goes for ANY speaker that doesn't color the sound (not to say Aerial's don't).... Which is why I like B&Ws, they don't seem to color the sound enough where you can tell if one component changes.

Heck I just changed my CD player about 3 months ago and couldn't believe the difference it made and how "easily" I (and my friends as well) could tell the difference. All my other speakers never showed that much change in equipment before.

......... and I'm only running the 604S3's.....

I've had extensive listening sessions with the 800 series though and some day will have them. ha ha.

The one big thing that will be noticeable is the Ribbon tweeter on the Aerial and the Diamond on the B&W, those are going to give two different sounds, which he might or might not like....

[aphexist]

Have you heard the 20t? I wouldn't put up anything less than the 800D against it, and I would bet on the Aerials.

[RNKC]

When the N800 first came out, I listened to them at the dealer. They were setup with Mark Levinson 33 (the BIG ones, not the 33H) and Levinson everything else (31.5 transport etc). Basically the dealer was trying to showcase all this as a true reference system so even the interconnects and speaker cable were all top of the line.

It sounded horrible.

I was so utterly disappointed - how could B&W get it so wrong? The N802 sounded oh so much better than these "top of the line" N800.

Some months later I went back. The reference system had been moved from the upstairs room to the downstairs one. The dealer wanted me to hear some Halcro amps on the N800. I told him I'd listen first with the Levinson 33 then we'd switch to the Halcros. So once again I braced myself to listen to exactly the same Levinson / N800 setup I had heard, only this time in a different room.

It sounded magnificent.

I voiced my surprised opinion. To my eyes, the 2 rooms seemed roughly similar in size, composition (brick walls, carpeted floor) but the ceiling was different between the 2 rooms. The dealer replied that the upstaris room inherently sounded crappy and was being remodeled. (I think they eventually gave up and made it a storage room!) He also mentioned that my first time, the speakers had only been used a few hours so they hadn't broken in yet.

I don't think I would buy N800 - to me they don't sound so much better as to justify that high a price tag. The N802 suit me just fine. But it does go to show you that:

a) Speakers need to be broken in properly over time.
b) Your room makes as much difference as your actual system (amps etc).

[kylek100]

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

aphexist, I have not heard the 20T's yet. He has heard them once, but he said the barometric pressure was off the day he heard them in what ever city (chicago I think) he was in at the time. He says when the pressure changes his hearing changes a lot, so it colored his experience. But regardless he said that his 10T's sounded just as good, if not better. What is your experience with the 20T's and have you any with the 10T?

RNKC -- This is what I suspected. I have heard the N800's a few times and was just as disappointed as you were. I'll have to see if I can find a place that has some in a room that does them justice. I have also had the same experience with wilson watt puppys. The one time I've heard them they just sounded....boring and far from being very musical. This was the exact same thing that happened with the B&W's, so I'm starting to think that the fault can't be on the side of the speaker.

[misterdoggy]

All 800 series are top of the line. 803D are superior to the rest of the 800 series no doubt ,but all the 800 series are serious Audophile speakers. !!!

Chinets,

803D are not considered the top of the line. 800D are the top of the line, then 801D then 802D and then 803D in that order. Just to set the record straight. Also I would have to give a listen to the "new" 800D and not the N800 before making a decision against B&W. And of course the right combination of elements not only amp, cables, etc but acoustics in the right room.

[js24]

Good point RNCK
I had more or less exactly the same experience at home..
I 'd bought a new set of very thick speaker cables that's supposedly warm and rich in the bass..
after I hooked'em up I thought it was giving the system overall more bass etc...
what I have realized later was that because the new cables were shorter than my original ones I moved my speakers toward the back wall ~5inches or so... I switched back to my old cable after~ 2weeks, and my cable sounded more or less the same... and ah.. with more bass...(the mid/high didn't suffer in any noticeable manner- it sounded a little warmer if at all )
of course I'm returning that cable...** I'm not discussing "cables" here :W **

positioning/placement is very very critical indeed... :E

[RNKC]

... positioning/placement is very very critical indeed...

The interesting thing about this is (IMHO) that the "lower end" speakers such as 804 & 803 are less sensitive to placement than 802 / 801 / 800. While on the one hand this is not overly surprising, it is at the same time somewhat disappointing. One must spend such a grand premium on the higher end speakers but must then fuss quite fiercely over placement and overall room tuning. It just takes the battle for the perfect sound to a new level that almost seems unfair in a way.

I just feel that if I spent that much on N800 or on 800D, they should sound fabulous no matter what. (Assuming the rest of the system is up to snuff of course.) If I tune the room they should sound even better. But it's unreasonable (I think) that they would sound horrible unless I get everything else right in the room.

[aphexist]

I just feel that if I spent that much on N800 or on 800D, they should sound fabulous no matter what.

What makes you feel that way? Why would you spend so much on speakers if you weren't willing to make some minor adjustments to make them sound right? These aren't innovative speaker designs. B&W has been tweaking the same basic design since the early 80's. Sure they make nicer cabinets, better materials, better crossovers, but there is not any _major_ acoustic innovation here.

Are you expecting them to sound good:
1) In a 10^3 concrete room with a wall of windows?
2) Placed flat against the back wall?
3) In a closet?

To rehash the often used car analogy, would you go off-road in a Corvette? It is a high-performace machine that performs to spec in a specialized enviornment and it performs poorly outside of that enviornment.

The room is almost always the most important component, and I only say "almost" because i don't like using absolutes. The Wilson Alexandria X-2 will sound bad in a bad room.

I think the 803/804 would be just as "difficult" to place as the 800 (not considering the size and weight limitations), but the performance expectations are probably much lower. Also, you must consider that the 800/801 are equipped with 10" and 15" drivers respectively, and if running them full range, you will run into the same room mode issues that subwoofer placement implies.

[js24]

I made my wife sit down on "the sweet spot" yesterday and did further experiments... (what a torture, eh? :B)
even for my 703s small changes (few inches) in placement (basically the distance from the backwall and toe-in angle) made very noticeable differences to the rather unbiased listener
often times pple put a post "which speaker to get...blabla" and the number one first response I see is "what is your room size, etc.."
I used to think in the same line with RNCK on the placements of the hifi speakers but.. now I'm a firm believer of importance of the room acoustics...

my 703 at home sounded better than the 803D at the dealer... does it mean that my 703 is the better speaker?? :E

p.s. I think there is an article on room acoustics in this month's issue of the stereophile (with the sneak peak of 802D in review.. )

[RNKC]

I guess I had that one coming - my bad for using an absolute statement!

To clarify, let's use that Corvette analogy. Naturally one cannot expect this vehicle to go off road with the same adroitness as a Humvee. But neither should one expect the Corvette to only perform well on a racetrack. It is a reasonable assumption that a Corvette will do well on a normal road, but truly excel on a well-controlled racetrack.

I think the N800 should be the same. In a reasonable, normal room it should sound good. In a perfect, controlled room it should sound fantastic.

For the record, I do believe in tuning a room properly. It's interesting to note that some manufacturers are making pre-amps that digitally control what comes out of your speakers so that the overall sound is matched to your room. While I'm hesitant at going down this path, I see nothing wrong with treating your room with acoustic material etc so long as the esthetics are still somewhat there. I just don't think that room tuning should be a necessary first step to making a system sound good; it should be a second step to make a good system sound great.