Digital Amps / Receivers

[SRT-10 Viper]

I have been reading on other forums about digital amps/receivers... Examples are the new Sony ES9000 line (higher price) and the Panny X50, X70 or the H/K 2005 on the lower end of the cost/power curve. People who have them swear by them and state they sound better than much more expensive analog gear. Has ayone tried Digital amps/receivers with their B&Ws? If so, what's your assessment?

[turbokuo]

I have been reading on other forums about digital amps/receivers... Examples are the new Sony ES9000 line (higher price) and the Panny X50, X70 or the H/K 2005 on the lower end of the cost/power curve. People who have them swear by them and state they sound better than much more expensive analog gear. Has ayone tried Digital amps/receivers with their B&Ws? If so, what's your assessment?

I've tried, the Panny X70, Onkyo 552, HK 1005 and HK 2005...ending up keeping the HK 2005. A true digital amps/recievers (not including the digital hybrids) are superior by design which leads to better SQ...you just need to choose your flavor.

This is my review from another thread:

As with any new revolutionary audio technology, there are just some people that are going to dislike it…examples seen in individuals who till this day still prefer turntables over cd players and tubes over solid state amps.

Regardless I respect their decision but the fact is that digital amps are the wave of the future for those who are striving to get as close to the original recording as possible and as each generation of digital amps passes, they will become even better. Their inherent technical advantages in noise floor, bass management, negative feedback back over analog amps is a reality. And the scary part is that the current crop of sub $1,000 digital amps/receiver are performing and in some cases outperforming analog gear that cost thousands more like Parasound, Levinson, Classe, etc. Check out the larger audio video forums and you can email specific individuals who have already done ditched their expensive gear in favor of the digital wonders. Now, don’t get me wrong, I’m not advocating that you sell your beautiful Levinson or Classe gear and go out and buy a digital Panasonic as I am a big fan of eye candy. But I would bet there is a segment of people on this board who don’t make millions each year and would appreciate the fact that they can spend sub $1,000 on a digital amp/receiver and have it outperform analog gear costing thousands more.

Be warned though!!! Not everyone will like digital amps as a matter of fact of the 4 different brands that I’ve tried; I only liked 2 of them. The reasons vary with each brand and are not always due to product infancy but rather preferences. For example, I feel that the Onkyo 552 while promising is a premature digital product and still needs work, the Panasonic X70 while having the best clarity of all the digitals, made my ears bleed after 15min (keep in mind that this is coming from someone who doesn’t think B&W’s are harsh). So my point is that the digital difference is so dramatic in some cases, as with the X70, that even though it has better overall SQ, ironically my ears just could not get accustomed to the new dumb-founding clarity. A specific example of this is with Track 1 of my Yo Yo Ma recording where in the past, I could always hear someone turning the sheet music in the background and with the X70 the sound of turning the music sheet was so much clearer, vivid, defined at the same volume that ironically it became very distracting from the overall enjoyment of the music!!! Eventually I chose the HK 2005 because it has the best combination between the new and old world and is currently the only one in this crop that works well at 4ohms. It has the inherent benefits of digital amps/receivers but with an ever so slight hint of the SQ of analog amps. Keep in mind X70 fans usually don’t like the HK 2005 for the same exact reason. They would frown upon me because the HK’s flavor is too close to an analog amp and so may you. Many boutique brands are planning digital alternatives which will show up within the next 1 1/2 years and in most cases they will price them higher than their analog counterparts, such as the case with HK.

[csuzor]

Thanks, very informative. Sounds like we are going towards a 3-way war, tube Vs analog Vs digital, for the long term future. Good! we'll have interesting discussions! I am waiting to hear the new Rotel digital amps.

[Jmac]

I've had my Sony ALL digital TA-DA9000ES (euro version of STR-DA9000ES) running in my set up consisting of Naim-Audio CD, preamp/preamp powersupply/poweramp/speakers etc, source being the Naim CD player for 2 channel music, and my Sony 9000ES SACD/DVD player for movies/music, into my Naim speakers, and for surround in combo with my existing Tannoy rears, and feel no desire as yet to change 'back' to the Naim as regards the preamp/powersupply/poweramp side of it.

Considering that Naim make audio products widely held to be up amongst the very best, that is NO mean feat.

Me? - i'm sold.

Oh, and I believe when Sony did a press release of the TA-DA9000ES in the UK, they did so with it driving FIVE N801's for a SACD surround sound demonstration, and I know of two enthusiasts using it with N801's.

Enough said really...

Best Regards

John.... 8)

[csuzor]

Could it be true? An integrated digital receiver would sound cleaner than similarly priced or more expensive analog separates, even with high-end speakers? Is there anyone who has done a serious comparison with $2-4k solutions? Does anyone dare to say they their analog amp sounds better than a digital amp at similar cost?

[SRT-10 Viper]

Tubokup: Do you think the H/K 2005 would drive my speakers? I have 800Ds fronts, 802Ns rear and soon to add HTM2D center? I currently have the Denon 5803A would you think this would be a noticable upgrade in sound? Does the H/K have preamps out? I run 2 Classe CAM 350s? Would this put analog back into the process to soon or would it work fine?

[SRT-10 Viper]

Jmac; Has Sony fixed the early quality problems? Do you thik this would be a noticable improvement to my 5803A? Would I be able to use the 2 Classe CAM350s for front amps and still have the digital advantage?

[johan]

SRT-Viper,

There is no H/K on the planet capable of driving 800D's, nor is there a Sony that can. Ok, you will hear sound, but that's just a waste of speakers. So please dont even think of replacing those CAM's with something like that. Of course you can replace the Denon and use pre out to feed your CAM's but then you wouldn't be more digital than you are today, your Denon does all processing in the digital domain anyway, except for stereo bypass, but if I recall right you have a two channel Classe preamp for stereo listening so that is of no interest. If I were you I would stick with what you got and add a Classe CA-3200 for your center and surrounds, then you'd be set for many many years to come. Digital amps may have come a long way but they are not ready to compete with the likes of Classe, Krell, Levinson etc when it comes to getting the most out of speakers like Natilus and 800D-series.

[SRT-10 Viper]

Thanks Johan for the perspective.

[turbokuo]

Tubokup: Do you think the H/K 2005 would drive my speakers? I have 800Ds fronts, 802Ns rear and soon to add HTM2D center? I currently have the Denon 5803A would you think this would be a noticable upgrade in sound? Does the H/K have preamps out? I run 2 Classe CAM 350s? Would this put analog back into the process to soon or would it work fine?

SRT-10 Viper,

Johan is both right and wrong.

For 2 Channel- Absoutely!
The HK2005 for 2 channel music sounds so much better than the Classe and Rotel gear that I had on my N802 due to the benefits of all digital, so for 2 channel they are much much better than the analogs, period.

For HT - Depends on your speakers
The HK2005 will work but is currently a little too weak right now for the 800's and your B&W surrounds. See, when all channels are running, the power substantialy drops. In Oct, HK is announcing their digital replacement/upgrade for the HK2005, at which point if they up the specs, they may work great for HT.

Honestly for your setup, I would wait for some Classe digital gear, because Bling Bling is good.

[Jmac]

SRT10 - Viper said:

Jmac; Has Sony fixed the early quality problems? Do you thik this would be a noticable improvement to my 5803A? Would I be able to use the 2 Classe CAM350s for front amps and still have the digital advantage?

I read/contribute over at agoraquest.com as well as a few other Hifi/HT sites that interest me, and followed the development of the Sony Top ES all digital amp quite closely. There were no known teething troubles that I'm aware of with the STR-DA9000ES amp. The first of the 3000 & 5000 models had some video upconversion problems, apparently, mostly fixed under warranty and a factory fix implemented. There is comprehensive info on this on the Agoraquest site. Also, you will find a comprehensive review I wrote comparing the 9000ES to my Naim kit, for both 2 channel and HT - see the thread 'getting to grips with the TA-DA9000"

There is a lot of info there on the Sony amp, and lots of links to reviews etc. As far as the 'big' AV amps are concerned, such as the Yamaha Z9, Denon AVC1, Pioneer AX10i etc the sony is the only one that is digital, and is widely regarded as being the most musical, albeit perhaps not quite as immediate/'meaty' sounding as say the Denon when it comes to 'grunt' for HT headbanging work. It is exceptionally smooth and refined.

You would have to listen and make up your own mind whether you preferred the sound to the Denon you own. Digital is very clean, and not necessarily to everyones taste perhaps. The Sony has 7.1 preamp outs; however you would lose the digital advantage IMHO.

As regards power, check out a review of the sony on UltimateAV; they do measure, and it gives around the 170watts mark, x 7 (all channels driven)

If its any help, I invited my Naim dealer friend over for a listen; we both thought the naim was a bit better rythmically, a little warmer, more forward in the mids, and a greater sense of the leading edges of 'sounds' - a Naim house sound trademark - which gave it a little bit more of a sense of attack, or drive, especially in the bass. For clarity, detail, smoothness, tonal colour and texture, the sony kills it. (all with respect to 2 channel music) My dealer friend thought it was very musical, and whilst not totally putting the Naim to shame, opinioned it was more musical than anything they stock in his store as regards AV amps/receivers. They stock Denon, Rotel, NAD, and Arcam, as well as Naim. He also opinioned that on HT it was as clear as the naim AV2 (Naims standalone AV processor).

Hope this helps, and gives you some idea of it's relative capabilities. Having said that, I would tend to agree that with a speaker the calibre of say Nautilus 802's etc, one wants the very best amplification to go with what has to be one of the worlds truly great loudspeakers. I appreciate that one can drive them with Rotel - I'd have to do an AB, but I'm pretty sure IMHO that the Sony would edge the Rotel on musicality - it's a very fast, open, clear, smooth sound - the Rotel is darker, richer, but also slower and somewhat lugubrious by comparison. Notwithstanding personal preference, I would tend to think that whilst say Sony and Rotel might compete, that the Levinsons, Classe, Brystons etc of this world would still have an edge when driving such a high quality speaker as the N802 or 801's etc.

Of course, they cost a LOT more money, and the difference in sound is nowhere near the difference in cost; that really is the HUGE plus of digital; one can get high-end audiophile sound at everymans prices.

Hope this helps

Best Regards

John... 8)

[ti33er]

...has anyone taken a look at the Yamaha Digital Amplifier yet - http://www.yamaha.com/yec/customer/m...literature.pdf ...I wonder how this would pair with B&W 802+ ? ...I read a review on this unit and the opinion was of a very clean (zero background noise), punchy and non-electronic/edgy acoustic signature...

[caleb]

I know that the Jeff Rowland digital amps sound good with the 802's but just a bit "clinical" in my view.

Another reason for digital amps of course is the very low heat given out - helps when you want to hide them away somewhere.

[ti33er]

hehe, also the cost of the new digital amps as this is the clearly the biggest advantage --> they are on average 5 - 10 times cheaper for (apparently) equivilent performance! ...that Yamaha reproduces 10 -100 000Hz if I read correctly, now in a logical trail of thought that could help bring out the best (possibly) in Diamond version B&W's IMO! ? ...I for one am very excited at the prospect of this affordable new tech horizon!

[RebelMan]

I for one am very excited at the prospect of this affordable new tech horizon!

Same here Paul. In fact, I am anxious to see how the new Rotel digital amps will pair up with the new B&W's.

[csuzor]

the cost of the new digital amps as this is the clearly the biggest advantage --> they are on average 5 - 10 times cheaper for (apparently) equivilent performance!

Looks like Rotel have factored in the extra performance into their price though, the RMB1077 at $2500 is significantly more than the RMB1075, and I doubt equivalent to $10k+ amps... but it may be...

[tmt]

I'm also waiting for some more digital amps to appear.
My HTM-1 is currently seriously underpowered. I'm not going to throw away my 2 channel Classe amp but a nice digital 5 channel amp should do the trick in powering the rest of my speakers. Is the RMB1077 the only digital Rotel that is announced yet?

PS I heard at a dealer that he had one customer that used the Yamaha digital amp with N802s.

[EAmin]

Rotel hasn't officially announced the RB-1091 (500 watts X 1) and RB-1092 (500 watts X 2), but they are coming out in the 3rd quarter of this year.

[purplepeople]

Which ones are using the Tripath chips? I've read some good things about those ICs and was thinking about upgrading my parent's Yamaha to something less noisy.

ensen.

[tmt]

I want to hold off for now and wait for the next generation of digital amps to appear.
The new digital Samsung AV-R3000 pre/pro/amp delivers 7*250W, which is almost enough to power an HTM-1 I guess
But with the next generation of surround decoding around the corner (DD plus, DTS-HD,...) I'll wait before upgrading my 5 year old denon 3300 5.1 receiver.

Although I don't know if such a HT pre/pro will be "good" enough for stereo listening with a classé/N802 combo,
it would simplify things though. I know have 2 inputs connected to the Classé amp, RCA inputs from the denon for HT and XLR inputs directly from the cd player for stereo, I have to switch inputs on the amp whenever I want to change from listening to music to watching a movie and vice versa.