Do they really need to be the same?

[RebelMan]

I have seen the advice of many say that you have to have identical speakers all around for a true 5.1 (6.1, 7.1...) channel listening experience. Well... maybe you do. But then it struck me. What was B&W thinking? Why would they make the other channels so different then? Why don't they recommend using the same speaker for the center and surrounds?

I suppose one obvious reason why is practicality. Really, how many home theaters can accomodate five 802s or seven 800s for that matter? It would seem, however, that B&W knew this and so they designed their speakers specifically for the purposes in which they are intended to be used. Since I believe this to be the case, how far off do you think we really are from the "true" listening experience?

Don't you think that having the speakers all the same for the best multi-channel setup is a little overrated?

Just a thought. :wink:

[hired goon]

G'day,

You don't need the same speakers for the best multi-channel sound, but you should be using the same speaker drivers, at least across the front (left, right, and centre). For home theatre, surround signals are generally limited in range*, so smaller speakers at the back are typically fine.

Although if you are listening to multi-channel music (like SACD or DVD-A), then identical speakers all around would be optimal, as theoretically the sound could come from any channel, and so all channels should be full-range, and identical in voice.

--Geoff

* although this may no longer be true...

[Andrew M Ward]

True!

Geoff Speaks the truth (as I understand it)

Regarding Speaker Drivers:
Psycho-acoustically we get our spatial ques from the tweeter, I would certainly try do as Geoff recommends across the front with matching.

The FST Kevlar has a unique signature (characteristic) and should probably also be matched across the front.

Just my 2 cents
Andrew Ward

[RebelMan]

G'day,

You don't need the same speakers for the best multi-channel sound, but you should be using the same speaker drivers, at least across the front (left, right, and centre). For home theatre, surround signals are generally limited in range*, so smaller speakers at the back are typically fine.

I think this is a very good point.

Although if you are listening to multi-channel music (like SACD or DVD-A), then identical speakers all around would be optimal, as theoretically the sound could come from any channel, and so all channels should be full-range, and identical in voice.

I think a lot of people would agree with you here. I haven't actually heard multi-channel music, but isn't the philosophy the same as home theater? Is it not the role of the surround speakers to reproduce a realistic jazz club or classical concert hall (etcettera) "effect"? If I could hear a musical instrument behind me as clearly as I should in fornt of me, then what happened to the sound stage? If the drivers are the same or very similar, then why would this still matter (speakers needing to be the same that is)?

[hired goon]

G'day,

I think a lot of people would agree with you here. I haven't actually heard multi-channel music, but isn't the philosophy the same as home theater? Is it not the role of the surround speakers to reproduce a realistic jazz club or classical concert hall (etcettera) "effect"?

The "philosophy" of multi-channel music is that the mixing engineer now has 5.1 channels in which to place sounds, rather than 2 channels. This does not necessarily mean that the rear channels are simply for "effects" or "ambience". There's no reason why the rears should not be full-range, if that's what the mixing engineer wants.

For example, an SACD of the LA Guitar Quintet has a seperate channel for each guitarist, so that the listener's position is right in the middle of the performers. I had a listen to an Eagles DTS mix once, in which the guitars and drums were only in the back channels. For such mixes, you don't want speakers limited to 100Hz or so.

If I could hear a musical instrument behind me as clearly as I should in fornt of me, then what happened to the sound stage? If the drivers are the same or very similar, then why would this still matter (speakers needing to be the same that is)?

Even if you have identical drivers, the cabinets should be the same to get the same frequency range. A drum solo in a 2-way floor-stander (with a frequency repsonse of 30Hz - 20kHz say) would sound different to the same drum solo in a 2-way bookshelf (with a frequency response of 60Hz to 20kHz say), even if using the same drivers. There's different frequency repsonses, different cabinet resonances, etc, that can affect the sound substantially.

As for the centre speaker, the best centre speaker would be the same as the left and right front speakers, but who'se got room for a vertical centre? That's why the centres are horizontal (which is not ideal, as it can producing lobing effects), but the same drivers should still be used.

--Geoff

[RebelMan]

G'day,

The "philosophy" of multi-channel music is that the mixing engineer now has 5.1 channels in which to place sounds, rather than 2 channels. This does not necessarily mean that the rear channels are simply for "effects" or "ambience". There's no reason why the rears should not be full-range, if that's what the mixing engineer wants.

For example, an SACD of the LA Guitar Quintet has a seperate channel for each guitarist, so that the listener's position is right in the middle of the performers. I had a listen to an Eagles DTS mix once, in which the guitars and drums were only in the back channels. For such mixes, you don't want speakers limited to 100Hz or so.

Understood. But couldn't this be said of HT as well? If the mixing engineer now has this flexiblility with music, doesn't it become more special effects and less reproduction? The venues I have been to always had the audience in front or surrounding the performer. Maybe it sounds "cool" to have drums playing in the back, but is it realistic?

As for the centre speaker, the best centre speaker would be the same as the left and right front speakers, but who'se got room for a vertical centre? That's why the centres are horizontal (which is not ideal, as it can producing lobing effects), but the same drivers should still be used.

I agree with this statement. But when it comes to the surrounds I still have a hard time accepting the notion that they should be the same also. Afterall, how many multi-channel music aficionados really do this? Poll anyone?

[hired goon]

G'day,

Understood. But couldn't this be said of HT as well?
If the mixing engineer now has this flexiblility with music, doesn't it become more special effects and less reproduction? The venues I have been to always had the audience in front or surrounding the performer. Maybe it sounds "cool" to have drums playing in the back, but is it realistic?

It's not realistic for live performances, IMHO. A lot of people think that "The Eagles - Hell Freezes Over" DVD is wonderful, but I think it is horrendously mixed. I'm looking at a bloke playing sax up on stage, and the saxophone noise is coming from behind me? That's silly.

For SACD and DVD-A, however, I can understand the use of rear channels for full-range instruments, if the music dictates.

But when it comes to the surrounds I still have a hard time accepting the notion that they should be the same also. Afterall, how many multi-channel music aficionados really do this? Poll anyone?

Personally, my surround speakers are used for movie effects only, and cannot be used for music reproduction. That's why the only SACDs I have are two-channel only. I'd like to have the same speakers all round, but that's neither affordable nor practical, so multi-channel audio is not something I'll be pursuing in the near future.

--Geoff

[RebelMan]

Ahhh, thanks for your input Geoff.

[caleb]

Just my penny's worth.
I have always laboured under the thought that you should have the same speakers for the fronts & rears with the centre having as close a characteristic to these as is possible.

That's why I presumed that the cetres speakers on the B&W range have an almost identical driver range as the front models (e.g. 805's with the old HTM2).

Nowadays there is a lot of information coming from the surround speakers so they need to be up to scratch to reproduce this.

[JCL]

I don't think it is a must. It just makes the wholl of the sound the same. In Holland we call t homogeen, it means that som how the speakers just fit, so there is one big flow of identicle sound. Hard to explain, you should try it your selfe at your dealer