BigguyZ's Dynamic 4T build

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  • BigguyZ
    Senior Member
    • Jan 2009
    • 153

    #1

    BigguyZ's Dynamic 4T build

    OK, I've been looking into building new speakers for some time now. I started out with building the Audax HT system that was popular some time ago. I plan on finishing the center channel and then selling the set to fund the 4Ts (I never bothered building the center, as my space dosen't have the room for it, and the imaging of the mains are so incredible I've been super happy running a ghost center).

    Anyways, after consideration I decided to go with the 4Ts. They seem to be a good bang for the buck, and I like the design. I was thinking about the Statements, but I have a small HT and I wasn't sure about the open back for the mids. I may try doing a monitor set for another room, but that'll be later.

    Although there's nothing wrong withj square box enclosures, I've always preferred curved cabinets. So I decided that I would make my speakers as a curved set. Looking at construction methods for this, I then decided that I'd get the best results doing a translamination with MDF.

    After looking at a lot of different translam builds, I saw a couple of issues. Those that cut the parts at home had issues lining the pieces up, and ended up having to do a lot of cleanup. You can drill for dowels, but most who did that did so by measurements, which still resulted in the parts having some slight variations.

    Another option some have done is to have someone do a CAD design and have the parts CNC'd. This means that the parts can be perfectly identical, and have holes made to allow dowels as guides. However, I can only imagine that having 130+ pieces cut from 5-6 sheets of MDF would be costly, and I'm on a budget.

    So, I came up with my own solution that I haven't seen done before. I've seen methods that were close, but not quite the same.

    It all started with the paper template/ design. I decided that I'd fix the height of the speakers and make no adjustments there. Therefore, the cross sectional area of the template needs to match the area of the original design. Using graph paper, I made a template that is one side of the speaker, making sure that I was as close to one half of the total internal area needed. I then transferred that to a MDF template.

    The template is drilled with holes so that dowels can be used to align the pieces. However, I didn't want to just drill holes directly into the MDF and use that. The concern is that the holes will eventually wear and the holes won't be drilled accurately. So, I bought some drill bushings that will ensure that the template can withstand the 130+ pieces being drilled. The drill and the bushing is a fairly tight fit, so it also helps to make sure that the drill is square with the surface of the MDF.

    Using the template, I make the first initial hole. I use a cut piece of 1/2" dowel to lock the template in place, and drill the second hole at the back of the speaker- again using a dowel to lock the template in place. So, I drill each hole and use a dowel piece to make sure that the template doesn't flex and cause the pieces to have different sizes.

    I buy full sheets of MDF, but I have them cut down into 1/4 sheets. For each 1/4 sheet, I can fit 7 standard pieces. For the sub enclosure, I can fit the pieces of I have the sheets cut into one wider section. Otherwise, I can only fit 4 pieces per 1/4 sheet.
    Attached Files
  • BigguyZ
    Senior Member
    • Jan 2009
    • 153

    #2
    I have most of the pieces layed out, but I have about 20 of the sub enclosure parts to drill and lay out, and the braces, and the tops/ bottoms.

    Once the parts are layed out, I cut them with a jig saw as close as I can to the line. Then, I can use the template that I used to drill the parts to use as a guide for a template router bit in my router table. the dowel pieces hold the part securely, and I don't have to worry about the part flexng, shifting, or coming loose. I also don't have to bother with carpet tape.

    After going to the router table, the parts are near exact copies of the template. And since everything is referenced by the holes, I shoudln't have to even out the sides too much once it's all together.

    I made a cutout for a 1.5" baffle. Right now I'm thinking I'll just go with teo layers of MDF, but with all the work I'm doing, I may be tempted to splurge on LBL. But that stuff is $$$$! Rockler's having a sale, 20% off lumber, even with that, I'd need about $100 worth just for the two baffles, one layer each. :E

    I figure it's going to take me another 2 hours to layu out the parts, 3-4 hours of cutting them out, and 3-5 hours trimming the parts on the table. (two passes, as trying to do it in one pass is too much).

    With all the work- and the injury I sustained while routing thje first few parts- I'm definitely not going to skimp on the veneer. I'm just deciding on if I should go with a single wood type for the entire thing, or maybe a two-tone look with two types of veneer.

    Also, I'm wondering about what to use for the dowels. A hard wood like oak would work, but most of the onese I've seen at HD or Menards are not 100% straight. And even a slight bow would mean that over the 4' height the difference could really add up. Having 6 dowels might help minimize that, but even so, I'm not sure about going with wood.

    I bought a 1/2" steel rod from Menards, bu I found out that it's actually slightly larger. I like the idea of the steel for rigidity and mass, but if it's too tight a fit I don't want to have to really hammed the parts in. I'm wondering if the stock that Menards has is just low grade, and going to an online store or another local seller will resolve that issue. Also, I'm wondering if the bond between the MDF and the steel would be strong with PVA glue, or polyurethane glue... What do you guys think?

    I really hope all this work is worth it. Also, this is using a TON of materials. The last picture is a shot of most of the materials I'm using just for the mains (the center and surrounds will likely be the traditional box-type speakers). I still need more 1/2" MDF to get the height right.
    Attached Files

    Comment

    • BigguyZ
      Senior Member
      • Jan 2009
      • 153

      #3
      More pics.
      Attached Files

      Comment

      • john trials
        Senior Member
        • Mar 2009
        • 449

        #4
        Cool project. That looks like an incredible amount of work!

        For alignment dowels, you can use 1/2" tubing (not pipe). I use stainless steel tubing a lot, and get it at www.mcmaster.com, but you may find some locally (not sure where, though). The outer diameter of tubing is very precise, as it needs to mate with fittings. McMaster will also have precision rod if you want solid.
        Statements: "They usually kill the desire to build anything else."

        Comment

        • savage25xtreme
          Senior Member
          • Dec 2008
          • 305

          #5
          maybe I missed it, but what about a bracing cut out layer?

          very neat build, keep up the hard work.
          Gavin

          BAMTM Build

          Comment

          • BigguyZ
            Senior Member
            • Jan 2009
            • 153

            #6
            Originally posted by savage25xtreme
            maybe I missed it, but what about a bracing cut out layer?

            very neat build, keep up the hard work.
            I haven't done the bracing templates yet. I'm going to lay out the subenclosure parts first, then the braces, then the tops/ bottoms.

            I'm hoping to dedicate some time tomorrow morning (taking the day off) to finishing the layout/ drilling. However, I have a closet project that may take priority.

            Comment

            • BigguyZ
              Senior Member
              • Jan 2009
              • 153

              #7
              Wow, no other interest or comments? Can some of you mor3e experienced builders advise on thoughts between dowels and steel rod for the alignment? If I use steel, what glue would you reccomend using? Would PVA/ wood glue still hold the rods enough, or would I want to use a poly glue like Gorilla Glue?

              Thanks,
              Travis

              Comment

              • Hdale85
                Ultra Senior Member
                • Jan 2006
                • 16120

                #8
                Use threaded rod for the initial glue up so you can tighten nuts down and they will clamp it all together


                But dowels should work fine if they are snugly fitting.

                Comment

                • HareBrained
                  Senior Member
                  • Jul 2008
                  • 230

                  #9
                  why not just cut the sides and use a solid piece for the back. That would greatly decrease the amount of waste. If done right, you could leave the front and back mounting surfaces a little proud of their final dimensions and route them to the final size.
                  John

                  Comment

                  • ThomasW
                    Ultra Senior Member
                    • Aug 2000
                    • 10980

                    #10
                    Sorry if this post rains on the parade, but......

                    I've never understood using MDF for glue lam box construction.

                    MDF has no grain and basically little inherent strength, so other than 'looks' nothing is gained by using it in a glue lam stack.

                    The inside of an MDF sheet is softer than the factory top and bottom. So the glue lam process exposes the softest and most easily damaged part of the material to the outside world..

                    MDF is also problematic because even with careful construction the glue joints tend to develop thin cracks. Ask anyone who's made a standard MDF, spent hours giving it a great paint job about the small lines that develop over time at the joints....

                    IMO the only glue to use for this process is epoxy....

                    IB subwoofer FAQ page


                    "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                    Comment

                    • BigguyZ
                      Senior Member
                      • Jan 2009
                      • 153

                      #11
                      Originally posted by ThomasW
                      Sorry if this post rains on the parade, but......

                      I've never understood using MDF for glue lam box construction.

                      MDF has no grain and basically little inherent strength, so other than 'looks' nothing is gained by using it in a glue lam stack.

                      The inside of an MDF sheet is softer than the factory top and bottom. So the glue lam process exposes the softest and most easily damaged part of the material to the outside world..

                      MDF is also problematic because even with careful construction the glue joints tend to develop thin cracks. Ask anyone who's made a standard MDF, spent hours giving it a great paint job about the small lines that develop over time at the joints....

                      IMO the only glue to use for this process is epoxy....
                      No apologies neccesary, I'm always interested in other's opinions/ thoughts. Here's what I was thinking:

                      The reason for the laminated process was for a curved cabinet. I wasn't confident in creating a cured cabinet by using a rib cage and bent lamination technique. Also, MDF is dense, and I've never had a problem with it coming apart. I'm not leaving the MDF raw or painted, so I'm not worried about the fuzzy look. Also, from everything I've read/ experienced, there's little issue with MDF moving. There's a current lamination project where the builder found that the box he did with ply has expanded significantly. I don't think I'll have the same issued with MDF.

                      I don't think I'll have issues with it being veneered- do you think that'll be an issue?


                      Additional comments and thoughts are still welcome. I haven't made anything completely final, so there's always opportunity here.

                      I did have a thougt that I could TRY a ribbed bent lamination build using MDF and sheets of hard board... I'd need to make a different template for the ribs, but I think it's go together pretty quickly. Then, I could use the pair that worked out best for the mains and the other pair for the surrounds... Or sell them.

                      Again, thoughts are welcome.

                      Comment

                      • Jed
                        Ultra Senior Member
                        • Apr 2005
                        • 3621

                        #12
                        Originally posted by BigguyZ
                        I don't think I'll have issues with it being veneered- do you think that'll be an issue?

                        .
                        Seal it up nice and then fill the end grain (bondo or woodfiller) before veneering and you'll be okay. By the way great looking cabinets and I do think there are other benefits of the translam MDF cabinets other than looks. For example, curved sections built up in varying thicknesses and shapes can help resonance problems and break up standing waves. It all depends on the implementation.

                        Comment

                        • ThomasW
                          Ultra Senior Member
                          • Aug 2000
                          • 10980

                          #13
                          Originally posted by BigguyZ
                          I don't think I'll have issues with it being veneered- do you think that'll be an issue?

                          Additional comments and thoughts are still welcome. I haven't made anything completely final, so there's always opportunity here.
                          The chances of cracking are decreased but not eliminated using a veneer.

                          I know from the experiences at Avalon Acoustics they take heroic measures to prevent micro-cracking with their multi-laminated ($90K) MDF cabinets, due to the propensity of MDF to micro-crack at the glue joints.

                          My personal opinion is that the bent panels over ribs technique is not that difficult and eliminates the micro-cracking that can occur with MDF.

                          You should to be particularity careful since raw MDF expands and contracts according to changes in the relative humidity.

                          Unsealed MDF is porous enough that some large mfgring companies use it as the bottom for vacuum forming press, since it's possible to pull a vacuum through a sheet of the material.

                          IB subwoofer FAQ page


                          "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                          Comment

                          • BigguyZ
                            Senior Member
                            • Jan 2009
                            • 153

                            #14
                            One thing I was planning to do, is to treat each part in a home brew wood hardening solution. Basically, I'd use a plexitone (plexiglass dissolved in acetone) solution to harden and seal the MDF edges. I did this on the template, and so far it's held up very well. I also use the solution to stabilize wood used in making pens. So I figure that it'd have the same benefit.

                            Initially, I was thinking of wiping on the solution after the MDF was glued up. But now I'm thinking that a better idea would be to pre-treat the parts by dipping in a pan. But before I do this on a large scale, I'll be running some test by face gluing two peices and seeing if the solution has a negative effect on the glue bond.

                            Comment

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