Wavecor Ardent Journal - the first Builds

[JonMarsh]

Brief guide on using PSA veneer from Formwood

Notes for reference, this is the best single written summary I've come across for using PSA veneers; this is from the Formwood site.

Steps to Follow:

Remove memory and acclimatize the sheet by laying it flat between two sheets of plywood on the jobsite where it will be applied. Ideal temperatures for application fall between 70 and 80 degrees F. The ideal relative humidity is 35%.

Testing your surface prior to application is highly recommended. The surface must be clean, dry and smooth (free of grease, dust, and wax). PSA will stick to lacquered, varnished, or enameled topcoat surfaces that are not flaking and peeling. Our standard PSA's will not stick to bare wood, sanding sealers, melamine, or other plastics. Please contact our technical support group to specify specialty PSA adhesives for these applications. PSA requires approximately 48 to 72 hours to achieve its maximum bond.

Surface preparation includes:

• Use of denatured ethyl alcohol to remove grease, dust and wax.
• Uniform scuffing of the finished surface with a 100-150 grit no fill sandpaper.
• Tack-rag wiping to make surface dust free.
• Re-wiping with denatured ethyl alcohol.
• Trim the veneer sheet leaving it ½" oversized to allow for a final trim after the sheet is positioned on the substrate. (Use of a sharp utility knife or scissors is required)

Apply by peeling back a small section of the backer

• Press down lightly
• Check alignment (applying centerline of sheet to centerline of substrate) and correct
• Continue removing the backer and pressing down the veneer
• Use a veneer scraper to apply pressure tightly and with the grain eliminating all bubbles and trapped air that can result in installation failure. ("J" roller not recommended)
• Seal and finish the veneer promptly after application and cure time to protect from moisture penetration.

It's not uncommon for some folks to report issues using PSA veneer. I suspect many of those issues can be traced back to inadequate or incomplete surface preparation or not using a veneer scraper properly to get high strength adhesion.

Ben's technique for using epoxy as a base coat and sanding and prepping that is highly recommended- while Titebond II or III will sort of work OK, epoxy in my experience is best as a surface prep. I find sanding with 150 or 180 grit to work well after the epoxy coat.

Note, I HIGHLY recommend the Mirka Abranet sanding disks; they're inherently porous to air and facilitate the dust extraction; they work great with a good orbital sander with dust collection setup, like my Porter cable sander and DeWalt dust extractor system.



I'm no woodworker, but I'm smart enough to latch on to stuff that works well....

[benthe8track]

Something else to keep in mind is that PSA doesn't reach full strength for about 28 hours. It's less of an issue for you since you're using raw on the facets but I found it made a big difference if I applied the facets then left them alone for a while.

[meb46]

+1 on the Abranet pads... Fantastic things!

[JonMarsh]

Something else to keep in mind is that PSA doesn't reach full strength for about 28 hours. It's less of an issue for you since you're using raw on the facets but I found it made a big difference if I applied the facets then left them alone for a while.

That jibs with what I've read, too- and have taken that into account in past efforts- it's particular important to let an attached sheet sit up for 24 hours before using a laminate trimmer to trim the edge- some feel that hand trimming and sanding is OK. Fortunately GF has given me the OK to keep a work table up in the family room so that I can do the sections step by step without it being disturbed and with adequate set time between pieces. And it's just out through a big glass siding door to get to the patio where I can make sawdust.

Actually, though I have the solid veneer, I'm pondering trying the PSA on the facets since I have so much of it (two 4x8 sheets) and can be selective. That may slow me down a bit, in terms of the required set time. Still pondering that- though I can do all four main facets at once, I figure.


BTW, for anyone interested, here's another good resource page I'd forgotten about but had linked and saved during the original/first Ardent build. Worth a look for anyone new to this technique.

http://www.wisewoodveneer.com/psaveneers.html

There's a PDF version attached below

A few other points...

I use a pfeil Swiss made Primetime A/V Sweep Roughing Knife for cutting and trimming veneer -



If you're nervous about your skill with this when cutting adjacent to another previously veneered surface, consider using a thin still rule as a backing/spacer for making your cut- it will protect the other surface, and give you a very thin overhang that is easy to sand down.




Any good cabinet steel rule should do, but I am partial to Incra tools. Incra Rules is not a bad motto- maybe I should change my signature? :B

One other point frequently not mentioned is time between veneering and finishing- if you're in a benign area like the Bay area where I live, not so much an issue, but in general, don't leave veneered surfaces sitting around where they can absorb humidity for a long period before finishing. In fact, I'd also recommend leaving the final sanding until just before you're ready to veneer- any impact of humidity, sunlight, oxidation from air will be removed just before you get down to brass tacks for finishing.

It's a good idea to get to the finishing pretty quickly, once the 24 hours setup for the last veneer application is complete. And do NOT use a heavy wet stain; if you do go with stain and need more coats, multiple light coats that are wiped off quickly work much better.

OK, that's the last thoughts for now from the wires and sparks guy about how to do veneering and finishing (something I'm NOT expert on, but have learned a little through experience and my own mistakes.)

Me, I'm looking forward to huffing some lacquer in the not too distant future... :W

[JonMarsh]

+1 on the Abranet pads... Fantastic things!

In a class of their own, in my opinion!

[JonMarsh]

Test Article Crossover BOM

For reference, test article in construction and evaluation this weekend. Crossover cost has come down from the hideously outrageous to the merely usurious. :W

[benthe8track]

That jibs with what I've read, too- and have taken that into account in past efforts- it's particular important to let an attached sheet sit up for 24 hours before using a laminate trimmer to trim the edge- some feel that hand trimming and sanding is OK. Fortunately GF has given me the OK to keep a work table up in the family room so that I can do the sections step by step without it being disturbed and with adequate set time between pieces. And it's just out through a big glass siding door to get to the patio where I can make sawdust.

Actually, though I have the solid veneer, I'm pondering trying the PSA on the facets since I have so much of it (two 4x8 sheets) and can be selective. That may slow me down a bit, in terms of the required set time. Still pondering that- though I can do all four main facets at once, I figure.

Yeah on the big sections like the sides I just flush trimmed right away, only the facets needed the extra trim to really firm up. They felt like they wanted to pull up a bit if I went at them with the knife before they were ready. There are visible glue/paper lines on my facet edges and I'm hoping they get hidden in finishing. I'm starting to lose faith in the guy who agreed to take on this project, he keeps over promising and under delivering. I'm running out of time in Winnipeg, and have our wedding coming up at the start of May. If he doesn't have it complete on Monday I'm going to explore other options.

For reference, test article in construction and evaluation this weekend. Crossover cost has come down from the hideously outrageous to the merely usurious. :W

That's not bad at all

[JonMarsh]

Yeah, coming down from $1500 is more palatable than going up from $500, I think!

Sorry to hear about your local under delivering, but good luck with the wedding- are you moving to Calgary after that?

Yeah on the big sections like the sides I just flush trimmed right away, only the facets needed the extra trim to really firm up. They felt like they wanted to pull up a bit if I went at them with the knife before they were ready. There are visible glue/paper lines on my facet edges and I'm hoping they get hidden in finishing.

Thanks for the inputs... sounds like I might be most productive going with the solid veneer on the facets, and working with the laminate trimmer for the other parts more quickly. I was able to control glue/paper lines pretty well on the first Ardents that way. I also expect it's sensitive to the veneer color and paper color- this maple may not be as visible an issue as your walnut.

[benthe8track]

Yeah, coming down from $1500 is more palatable than going up from $500, I think!

Sorry to hear about your local under delivering, but good luck with the wedding- are you moving to Calgary after that?

Thanks for the inputs... sounds like I might be most productive going with the solid veneer on the facets, and working with the laminate trimmer for the other parts more quickly. I was able to control glue/paper lines pretty well on the first Ardents that way. I also expect it's sensitive to the veneer color and paper color- this maple may not be as visible an issue as your walnut.

For sure, you can't beat the speed and you're right it may be less visible on the lighter maple. Not to mention the PSA goes down FLAT with a properly prepared epoxy base, nicer than iron on, contact cement and even some cold press.

It's going to be a hectic month with the wedding on May 3rd and need to be back at work on the 20th--so moving cross country in that time frame. Work is taking care of most of the details (even paying to ship my cat) so that's nice. Also we found a place recently (with a heated garage!) so it shouldn't be too bad a transition.

[dar47]

I had a productive weekend, received the replacement veneer on Friday. I was able to move quite fast trimming the veneer on all the angles with my freshly tuned and sharpened small block plain, made for vary little sanding.

Here some pics just after a coat of natural stain which is just linseed oil and solvent. If Ben's finish price is to much I'll start with sanding sealer and then the poly after letting the stain dry completely.

[TEK]

Very nice indeed... Good work!

[TEK]

For reference, test article in construction and evaluation this weekend. Crossover cost has come down from the hideously outrageous to the merely usurious. :W

I notice that R3 and R6 has quantity of 0, so I guess that means that you have changed the crossover from the last schematic shown?
Or that they are unintentionally left out?

Just haven't noticed that you have mentioned doing any more changes to the crossover since you last posted the schematic, but that might of course be that I just have missed it...

[JonMarsh]

No changes since last nice schematic and BOM posted, but the phenolic board build bases didn't arrive yet from the East Coast. Late yesterday I found a piece left over from the Isiris build and cut that to approximate size, but no time for assembly work yet. The last batch of parts hasn't arrived yet either.

Half of Saturday was spent running errands and getting stuff (including DeWalt table saw and DWS780) from storage over to GF's. And much of today on other necessary chores (laundry, etc) because my time is so restricted during the week.

The Canadians are showing how it's done- these are beautiful, and looks like a lot of work accomplished quickly this weekend! :T Two thumbs way up!






I just finished a second short round of epoxy cabinet touch up, then got the sanding done on that.





I went through my veneer, from the available grain figured laid out a cutting plan and cut out all the rough sized pieces and just barely got started...

Got the back put on the one cabinet with finished epoxy base coat (remember, the other is for driver test data until the crossover design is finalized)



and did my trim work with my swiss knife and two of my Bosch Colt routers, one setup with an angle plate- finish edge sand with the orbital sander, still with 120 grit Mirka.



I also got the front veneer piece attached, and ready to trim, but figured to let it sit up until tomorrow evening (if I have any energy after getting to GF's at 9) or more likely, until next weekend. At least, it seems my process is working OK, and I've got some veneer pieces sorted for reasonable figuring for all the important parts. I'm patting myself on the back for buying two 4' x 8' sheets, because the quality was inconsistent on one sheet, and I had to use a different orientation for cutting out parts than Ben did.

By next weekend I should have the balance of crossover parts and the additional phenolic parts on hand- the only thing lacking will be more time off! At least I won't be running around half the day Saturday doing errands...

[5th element]

I've always been a sucker for some nice looking cherry veneer. I've done a few pairs in some surplus I bought for cheap on ebay years ago and I am always pleased with how nice they look.

A few of you are investing quite a lot in these speakers and one thing that's nice is that if you're not quite happy with the way they sound, Jon can always offer advice on how to alter the tuning to match your tastes - one of the big advantages of going DIY, you're basically ensured to get good sound.

[JonMarsh]

I had a productive weekend, received the replacement veneer on Friday. I was able to move quite fast trimming the veneer on all the angles with my freshly tuned and sharpened small block plain, made for vary little sanding.

Here some pics just after a coat of natural stain which is just linseed oil and solvent. If Ben's finish price is to much I'll start with sanding sealer and then the poly after letting the stain dry completely.

That's always a good fall back- the poly on the Isiris turned out pretty nice. But for maple, my past experiments shows lacquer is THE way to go! Cherry is probably quite different, though you still might prefer that.

[dar47]

Great progress Jon, it's nice to see your cab prepped with a piece on already. I just felt like I was waiting so long for the veneer I kind of went manic. ops: I think I went from 9:00 am to 12:00 am with 1 break for food, haha.

For those not wanting to go the epoxy route you can use sanding sealer, it just needs to be well sanded and cured. My PSA cherry went on no problem. I would stick to allowing the pieces on the facets to sit awhile before trimming though. I just went at them right away taking little bites with a vary sharp plain, stopped to hone the blade when I felt the glue grabbing to much. One other tip that others have mentioned is to sand after your veneer is set for 12 hours and most woods need a good sanding to take stain well but cherry is a little different in that it takes vary little to over power the grain and get dark. I like to put a light coat on the unsanded veneer and wipe it off as I'm applying. I let it sit for and hour them sand with 220 removing stain to get the a lighter appearance. This also pushes the remaining stain into the grain and removes any contaminants. The pick above are before sanding.

I'm considering using this, as it's price went from $100. a gallon to $60.


Image not available


It has aluminum oxide in it and provides great UV protection that slows the darkening of the cherry. I may still go with Ben's option if the price is right.

[JonMarsh]

Well, thanks for explaining!

Great progress Jon, it's nice to see your cab prepped with a piece on already. I just felt like I was waiting so long for the veneer I kind of went manic. I think I went from 9:00 am to 12:00 am with 1 break for food, haha.

I felt like such an underachiever after seeing your post, though happy for the progress you made! :W

Hey, I was happy with the progress I made, too; I just think I'm going about this fairly "deliberately", as the last thing I want at this point is yield loss! Another thing I was thinking about and sharing with GF, is that I really wish I had the time to go about this in a relaxed fashion, to savor the work and process, and linger over the details. Instead, I'm approaching it too much like my day job- because of my self imposed early May deadline to meet (if possible) and I guess just bad habits picked up from work.

If I get back to GF's in time tonight, I'll probably do the basic trim on the front face veneer layer, maybe close cut some facets and get them ready. OTOH, I really only normally have enough time to get a tiny snack, clean up, and go to bed.

The Varathane Nanodefense should be a great choice for your cherry (cost aside)- UV resistance probably needs to be high on your list of priorities! I'm looking forward to your pictures of when you do get them finished- looks like you'll give the Cherry Avalon's a run for the money! :W

[dar47]

"deliberately", as the last thing I want at this point is yield loss!

This is good and you should enjoy the process. Maybe no self imposed deadline this time? I just have a comfort level with a small portion of the process and not as much going on as you do. Your skill set is the real genius though, I can't bang out xovers and I'm vary deliberate when assembling them. ;x(

Ben and I are thinking of some Ncore's after this, so we will be watching your build and we will try not to push on that one.:lol: I'm wondering if there is an easy way to incorporate a power trigger?

[JonMarsh]

This is good and you should enjoy the process. Maybe no self imposed deadline this time? I just have a comfort level with a small portion of the process and not as much going on as you do. Your skill set is the real genius though, I can't bang out xovers and I'm vary deliberate when assembling them. ;x(

Ben and I are thinking of some Ncore's after this, so we will be watching your build and we will try not to push on that one.:lol: I'm wondering if there is an easy way to incorporate a power trigger?

There is a digital input for on/off on the control header, so there is a way to do that potentially. OTOH, standby power is very low- about 10 watts. Not like my Aragon's or Cambridge Audio amps that are burning 180-200 watts without any signal going through them! The amps are good space heaters in the winter (though not good enough for where you live!), but the nCore should be much better in the summer time!

[ColoradoTom]

Jon,

This is an inspiring build. It will be interesting to see where they fall, performance wise, when compared to "Bonnie and Clyde".

Second daughter starts college this Fall so I'll have more time but less money :P Thankfully, I've build up a large supply of wood and veneers over the past couple of years and I'm itching to get back to project building. Still looking at a rebuild of my last set of Avalon clones!

Tom

[JonMarsh]

Jon,

This is an inspiring build. It will be interesting to see where they fall, performance wise, when compared to "Bonnie and Clyde".

Second daughter starts college this Fall so I'll have more time but less money :P Thankfully, I've build up a large supply of wood and veneers over the past couple of years and I'm itching to get back to project building. Still looking at a rebuild of my last set of Avalon clones!

Tom

Yeah, funny, for being a "smaller" set of speakers, this has been an inspiring build for me, too. Very focused on some particulars including both high performance in a smaller size, and keeping the cost and complexity under control.

Compared with Bonnie and Clyde, these won't play as loud, though the overall LF response should be similar, and I expect the midrange and highs to be satisfying-

The 6640 Be tweeter is very nicely behaved, and sits at an interesting point performance wise between the JDT-1024 diamond tweeter and all the typical cloth dome and ceramic dome models from SS and Acuton.




And distortion is quite reasonable, even for the older version:



I expect better results with the newer crossover which has somewhat steeper slopes and a higher crossover point for the woofer to mid transition, and the excellent distortion behavior of the Wavecor SW223BD01.

So while I'd like to linger over the build process, I'm also eager to get these running- then I'll have something to use while I take down Bonnie and Clyde for their updates!

[benthe8track]

Finally got to check out my samples. He used conversion varnish and the high gloss looked really really good. Apparently it's just one guy that's why it's been taking so long but I should have them in by next week. 5 coats for 300 bucks, I'm happy with that.

[5th element]

I've popped both brushed polyurethane water based and shellac with a pad onto cherry and have been pleased with both. Shellac tends to look good on any wood though, providing you put on enough layers. I've also used a Rustins two part floor coat before that looks very nice, trouble is with all the fumes and it really does set hard as nails, it's a right pain to both sand (as it clogs sand paper like crazy) and buff (because its so tough). Water based stuff is definitely the way to go.

[JonMarsh]

Finally got to check out my samples. He used conversion varnish and the high gloss looked really really good. Apparently it's just one guy that's why it's been taking so long but I should have them in by next week. 5 coats for 300 bucks, I'm happy with that.

Sounds like a good deal! Interesting tradeoffs between conversion varnish and lacquer, there are many paths to nirvana- or a finished set of speakers! :B

[JonMarsh]

I've popped both brushed polyurethane water based and shellac with a pad onto cherry and have been pleased with both. Shellac tends to look good on any wood though, providing you put on enough layers. I've also used a Rustins two part floor coat before that looks very nice, trouble is with all the fumes and it really does set hard as nails, it's a right pain to both sand (as it clogs sand paper like crazy) and buff (because its so tough). Water based stuff is definitely the way to go.

I think it's human nature at times to go with the solution that you're familiar with and have been successful with in the past. Hence, I'm going to be making some fumes! It's a good thing I was able to bring Deft lacquer into CA via Amazon, as normally you can't buy the "good stuff" in CA anymore... :W

[dar47]

I had a chance to stop by and see Ben's guy to grill him a little. Not a spring chicken and he tells me I probably won't bother rubbing the finish out when he is done. I think I'm going to roll the dice with him as it's not much more $ and he says there is a lot of UV blocker in his conversion varnish. This will save me finishing in the basement, but I'm still nervous giving up control even if it's just awhile.

Judging by the sample Ben's burl is going to be amazing!

[JonMarsh]

Judging by the sample Ben's burl is going to be amazing!

I expect it will be! :T

Conversion varnish is a catalyzed finish, and is quite hard and durable, from what I hear, though I haven't ever used it myself. If he knows his job with the spraying, I doubt you'll need or want to do any rubout. If there were someone here that would do mine for $300, I'd jump on it. But I've got all the gear and the sanding sealer and lacquer on hand, so I guess I'll just have to be true to my DIY principles, this time!

[5th element]

I have no problems with the fumes, a nice 3M organic solvent mask solves that, it's just nice if you can get water based that works. Those masks are wonderful though for any work you might want to do with epoxy/resins, rattle cans etc. Pop one on and you can't smell a thing, which is as it should be, those fumes can be quite toxic with repeated exposure.

[JonMarsh]

very true- which is why I HAVE one of those 3M masks and the 6001 organic solvent filter cartridges! :W

[ColoradoTom]

Jon,

Saw that you are using PSA veneer. I haven't used it (actually have been creating 1/8 inch thick veneer from the rough lumber I have). Sounds like you've done your homework, as the woodworking forums say prep and repeated passes with a veneer scraper or veneer hammer is the way to go. Would be interested in your thoughts once the process is finished.

Tom

[JonMarsh]

Jon,

Saw that you are using PSA veneer. I haven't used it (actually have been creating 1/8 inch thick veneer from the rough lumber I have). Sounds like you've done your homework, as the woodworking forums say prep and repeated passes with a veneer scraper or veneer hammer is the way to go. Would be interested in your thoughts once the process is finished.

Tom

Yeah, it's the sort of thing that probably deserves an after action summary! I did a test case and was fairly satisfied, but surface prep is key to a good implementation, that, and not using water based stains! (my own thought or interjection- actually, applied carefully without any soaking, probably OK...) And of course assiduous use of a good veneer scraper. After using home made presses on the first Ardent's, I decided after some research and experimentation to try this path for this new build. For me, it's a question of trying to figure out the best process accessible or usable in my situation and available working space and time.

It might strike some that epoxy is a little overkill for surface prep, but for wood sealing and creating a good surface for the PSA to adhere to, I'd say it's tough to beat. And it's easy to get epoxy types and hardeners that work well for foam roller application- so far, my experience is pretty positive. So is that of the "Winnipeg Wrecking Crew" as I like to call them... they're a righteous father/son team!

In related news, the phenolic sheet from Norva Plastics (via eBay) arrived yesterday, along with the balance of caps from Parts Express. The phenolic is of two thicknesses, and will be used for the the new base concept and the crossover boards.

[ColoradoTom]

Epoxy was probably smart. Most of the problems with PSA and contact cement seem to be related to surface prep - actually this is universal in veneer work. Spend the time on surface prep and the likelihood of problems decreases exponentially.

This is one of those times I wish I had a replicator!! I'd love to have the rough cabinets in my shop right now so that I could work on the veneering/finishing! I guess CNC is starting to get close to achieving that goal!!

I've got ~200 board feet of 5/4 figured walnut that is just screaming to be used in a veneering project like this. I can easily get four 1/8 x 6 inch wide book matched sheets of veneer from each board. With my new veneer press I can laminate 2 foot by 6 foot panels and using the Ultra-CAT™ product from Veneer Supplies has proven to be a great adhesive.

Tom

[JonMarsh]

This is one of those times I wish I had a replicator!! I'd love to have the rough cabinets in my shop right now so that I could work on the veneering/finishing! I guess CNC is starting to get close to achieving that goal!!

I've got ~200 board feet of 5/4 figured walnut that is just screaming to be used in a veneering project like this. I can easily get four 1/8 x 6 inch wide book matched sheets of veneer from each board. With my new veneer press I can laminate 2 foot by 6 foot panels and using the Ultra-CAT™ product from Veneer Supplies has proven to be a great adhesive.

Tom

Hey, I'm jealous, all that walnut- also one of my favorites! Plus a veneer press! Some of us "wires and sparks" guys just have to make do with what we can cobble up... :W

That Ultra-CAT stuff does look very good- we're expecting great things out of you now that you've "upgraded" your veneering setup! Though, I think you suffer from somewhat the same issues, lack of free time!

to give you an idea of how I try to squeeze things into the cracks, time wise, at lunch time yesterday I was going through the users manuals and the patch editing software for my Line6 POD HD Pro X.






I'm trying to learn the setup and ways to store the configurations I want to use; there's a number of things I have in mind, both for direct DAW work and using with my DT50 and HD100 or VM2266. There are some pretty amazing presets to start with, though... and the DSP is expanded enough to support two complete alternate channels working simultaneously. Just don't have time when I'm at home or GF's, too many other things to do.

Seriously, isn't it ironic that I can live in such a populous area as the SF Bay region, but all my interesting wood working acquaintances are in far off places like Colorado (formerly my home) and Canada and Sweden, etc? The world is a strange place...

I'm starting to think I should do something to celebrate getting off this work project when it's wrapped up in October, maybe come out for RMAF. That would be hilarious, I could register as a "reporter" for HT Guide. GF used to work for IBM and has been to the area numerous times, due to the former IBM plant up in Boulder.

Ah well, one week or day at a time... let's see what I can get done locally on this project between now and the end of April!

[Hank]

a nice 3M organic solvent mask solves that

very true- which is why I HAVE one of those 3M masks and the 6001 organic solvent filter cartridges!

Bless you boys! And I did notice the blue tape in another post recently ;-)

[ColoradoTom]

The Line6 POD HD Pro X looks cool!!! I've been plying around with my Tascam 42B reel a bit and I'm still gobsmacked at how good 30 year old technology can sound!

You're correct about free time. I'm trying to spend time with the younger daughter before she leaves for school, so that has limited my "project' time significantly (but I really do enjoy being with her and, as you know, the time will quickly come where she has higher priorities in her life than her dad). Additionally, I have more projects than I can finish - workshop storage, walnut/butternut end tables for the wife, cherry/walnut/granite equipment cabinet for me, 4 subwoofer builds and just last week my wife wanted to know if it would be possible to build a completely new bedroom set for us by summer 2015. Oh, and that doesn't even count insane work schedule to pay for everything, and exercise schedule to keep me healthy enough to do all those fun things listed above!! I always thought the older you get the more free time you have........ I guess we're debunking that theory.

Would be fun to have you over if you come out for RMAF, the Sound Labs are sounding better than ever.

Tom

[JonMarsh]

I'll definitely keep that in mind, Tom- I've got a variety of music that would be fun to hear, and I could bring my French DAC, too!

[JonMarsh]

You're correct about free time. I'm trying to spend time with the younger daughter before she leaves for school, so that has limited my "project' time significantly (but I really do enjoy being with her and, as you know, the time will quickly come where she has higher priorities in her life than her dad).

Tom

This is so true... I still get together with mine at least once a month for dinner- a couple of weeks ago that was to celebrate her engagement with her fiancé. Boy, how things change!

[Steve Manning]

This is so true... I still get together with mine at least once a month for dinner- a couple of weeks ago that was to celebrate her engagement with her fiancé. Boy, how things change!

I think that's called getting old Jon My daughter got married this past fall and with my two step kids all of a sudden I've got 3 grand kids! When that heck did all that happen I want to know?

[JonMarsh]

I think that's called getting old Jon My daughter got married this past fall and with my two step kids all of a sudden I've got 3 grand kids! When that heck did all that happen I want to know?

I can so relate to that... my perceptions have NOT caught up with my life... often if I'm out at a restaurant or something, I see people and think to myself, what conservative looking/acting old folks those are, but then realize, hmmm they're probably 5-10 years younger than I am...

Congratulations on your daughter's marriage! :T

I do NOT want to hear about grandkids! :W Having a step function in that area must be a bit of a shock, Steve! though they're probably all great, you know... still, it's OTHER people that have grandkids!

Of course, you know what they say... growing old beats the alternative! it just depends on how you chose to grow old... I don't envision myself in the country club set, even if I'm living in a fairly posh community like Danville these days... (GF jokes that we live in the slums of Danville, where you can still find houses under $1,000,000... just barely!)

GF has her heart set on another Sierra Club expedition trip, so it looks like we're skipping a normal hiking outing this summer, and going to Antarctica March of 2015... will be interesting to see how that works out!

[Steve Manning]

I do NOT want to hear about grandkids! :W Having a step function in that area must be a bit of a shock, Steve! though they're probably all great, you know... still, it's OTHER people that have grandkids!


GF has her heart set on another Sierra Club expedition trip, so it looks like we're skipping a normal hiking outing this summer, and going to Antarctica March of 2015... will be interesting to see how that works out!

You don't know the half of it for shock value...... my daughter did things the backwards way, seems to be the norm these days, and had a baby first (long story) he is going to be 10 this year!, I'm going to be 55 this summer ...... try wrapping your mind around being called granddad at 45 8O.

The Antarctica trip sounds like it wood be cool ..... I need a vacation myself, need to get a new job first though to pay for it, got laid off in January so I'm dealing with that for now, sucks for vacations and projects for the time being.

[JonMarsh]

Sorry to hear about the job situation- that's not good news at all in this day and age, but as skilled a guy as you seem to be, I expect you'll find something good soon- best wishes for that endeavor! And I hope you find the time and funds for some kind of decent vacation this summer anyway.

Yes, 45 is a little young for GD status- I have a friend who's a family counselor, and her boy did something similar- got his girlfriend in a family way in their senior year in high school- they're both living at respective parents home, (his dad, in that case) but still consider them selves to be a couple that will get together after finishing college- so she's a GM at 50, which she puts a pretty good face on, but then she looks more like 40, too.

I shouldn't be griping about the possibility of becoming GD in a few years- I mean, not at nearly 63, now... I just don't look into a mirror often enough, and still feel like doing stuff that is likely more appropriate for my younger self... I guess I'm just reluctant to "grow up"! :W Rock and roll, fast cars and motorcycles, and distant vistas to photograph... that's stuff to live for, besides the ones you love.

GF has had her eye on this Antarctica trip for a while- we're sort of trading off who gets to be the lead in picking the vacation activity (last year was the hiking trip across northern England, which I wanted to do) the next one will be this- it's about double the cost for the excursion compared with the typical Sierra Club international hiking excursion, plus we have to fly to the tip of Southern Chile, which isn't cheap, either- we don't know if we can manage that on our United Airlines mileage accounts or not. I have a friend at work who's an avid amateur wildlife photographer- she has some friends who have done the Antarctica trip several times, and love it- it's on her bucket list near the top now.

This summer we'll go to the Ashland WA area for GF's niece's wedding, and a bit of camping. Probably won't be able to do anything more, and I'm not even sure I can get off for that, because of this special project at customer, which is now running nearly 2 months behind schedule.

In more relevant and optimistic news, more of the finishing materials are arriving (more Mirka Abranet and Abralon pads, polishing pads, 3M Glazing compound, etc) for getting the lacquer finishing done. I'm going to try to do a high gloss finish this time. BTW, I misspoke earlier, it was Woodcraft that shipped me all the high volatiles sanding sealer and lacquer that theoretically you can't buy for spraying in CA anymore. Of course, you can get the lacquer thinner at your local Lowes or Home Depot. I'm looking forward to 4 days off around the Easter weekend to have some serious spraying fun- sure hope the weather cooperates, too, although that isn't actually critical, I just don't want the humidity to be too high.

[Steve Manning]

Ashland is up near what I call home, Bellingham area to be exact. My wife and I were looking at making a trip out there this summer we will have to see?

Question for you on the finishing process ...... have you ever used the epoxy sealing method for painting cabinets? I having some joint bleed through on my Jensen's, the guy that painted them had a very hard time getting the mdf sealed just using paint and it's now showing up after ~ 8 months. I've done numerous web searches and can't seem to find a definitive answer for prepping mdf for painting, just wondering if you or any of the other guys doing this build have experience with this?

[JonMarsh]

I haven't been up in the Ashland area that often, but GF likes it, and has been jonesing to go their anyway- this wedding is a great excuse! Her niece and fiancé visited us about a year ago- nice kids, and I hope this works out for them. My only worry is that they're both fairly counter culture, and in todays economic environment that may entail some bumps in the road economically. I hope it works out of them. Of course, that comment is coming from someone who worked their way through school playing in bands... at that time, you couldn't get much more counter culture than that, unless you were dealing.


I've done one set of painted MDF cabinets only, in the past, and did use an epoxy coat. Sanded with my Porter Cable orbital sander with DeWalt dust extractor- I love that thing!

I have used both West System epoxy and System Three, Ben has a different favorite brand. For gluing I prefer System Three T88, or Loctite marine epoxy, but for coating I use System Three resin with the #2 Hardener, which give a reasonable combination of pot life and viscosity for roller application. I just don't find using Titebond or other wood glues as a sealer to work all that well.

That said, keep in mind I'm not much of a wood worker, I'm more a wires and sparks kind of guy, so take any of my suggestions with a grain of salt. A lot of times the solutions I come up with may reek of overkill and over-spending, but usually they work. :W

[Steve Manning]

I'm in the same boat as you concerning the over kill department and I certainly don't mind spending the extra money if it does the job right. I think the folks over at Vapor Sound use marine epoxy both inside and out to seal the wood prior to painting. I don't think the company has been around a long time so I don't know how well their finishes hold up over time, though they look pretty decent from what I can see initially.

[JonMarsh]

Interesting link- an awfully large array of products to offer for a small organization for a company founded in 2008! You're right, the cabinets shown there look pretty nice.

They use some good construction techniques, for certain- with CNC translam construction using BB ply. OTOH, (while beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and the ear of the listener) I couldn't talk myself into having a pair of Nimbus in my family room, much less talk my GF into them- though I'm sure form follows function, and they must move a lot of air, they are not esthetically pleasing to me, though they look well built. OTOH, I'm skeptical of low order slope crossovers for a ribbon tweeter at 2500 Hz.... but I do approve of their capacitor upgrade options! Ah well, everyone has their own path to Nirvana...

Others like Clearwave Audio (Jed's business) do use the OEM RAAL with 1st order networks, but I hear from some of my acquaintances that distortion is rising below 2200-2300 Hz, so crossover frequency and slope and transition band should be managed carefully for best results- low order stuff up around 3500, steeper slopes below that.