DualDisc news...

[Andrew Pratt]

DualDisc’ Demos at CEDIA Could Spark Patent Battle with German Inventor

A legal showdown may loom now that the major music labels have declared their intent to market the DualDisc

hybrid DVD/CD next month, despite patent claims to the technology by Germany’s DVD Plus International,

which has been making and selling the dual sided "flippers" since 2000. The dispute has been brewing since the

top 5 labels test-marketed DualDisc in the U.S. in Feb., but the flash-point could come at next week’s CEDIA Expo

in Indianapolis, where the DualDisc’s proponents said they plan demonstrations.

Definitive plans for DualDisc marketing were announced Aug. 24 by a consortium of labels that included

BMG, EMI, Sony, Universal, Warner and independent 5.1 Entertainment at the NARM convention in San Diego.

The first DualDisc titles are expected to hit stores Oct. 26, with 5.1 Entertainment’s Silverline Records among the

most aggressive. Silverline plans 25 titles each for release on Nov. 2 and 16, to be followed by 15-25 titles monthly

thereafter. The slate includes an eclectic mix of genres and each DualDisc will have 5.1 multichannel audio on the

DVD side. Silverline planned at CEDIA to demonstrate its titles in conjunction with Dolby Labs and to elucidate

on its plans, Sony, Universal and Warner also announced similarly eclectic releases, though in lower quantity.

BMG and EMI haven’t yet divulged their plans. DVD Plus International was quick to react to the DualDisc consortium’s plans. Dieter Dierks, founder and

principal of DVD Plus, told us his company commissioned independent lab-tests of DualDisc and confirmed its

structure and other features infringe his patents to the "invertible disc" technology. After analyzing the tests, completed

Aug.25, Dierks said his lawyers concluded that DualDisc does infringe the company’s patents and wrote a

memorandum to that effect -- Dierks said the test report and lawyers’ letter would be circulated to members of the DualDisc

consortium. "I am not exactly a toothless tiger," Dierks told us. "I can hit back in Europe and Australia,"

markets where Dierks said DVD Plus International has been granted patents for hybrid discs. Those patents still

are pending in the U.S. and Japan. --

[Gordon Moore]

I read about these hybrids a while back as a consideration to infuse some life back into a dwindling CD market by offering expanded content on the DVD side. Really, this will only be successful if they don't raise prices....if they do see this as a means to up the price again then I say forget it.

Interesting that the bodies behind protection of property would violate someone else's patent so readily....what kind of message is that?

[Andrew Pratt]

It gets better :E

CEDIA DualDisc Demos are Scrapped by Dolby, 5.1 Entertainment

Dolby Labs at the 11th hour has abruptly canceled announcements and demonstrations of the DualDisc hybrid DVD/CD it and its 5.1 Entertainment partner had planned for this week's CEDIA Expo in Indianapolis. A Dolby spokeswoman said only that the cancellation followed the emergence of an undisclosed "3rd party" on DualDisc and the announcements and demos would be rescheduled for a later date. DualDisc seems certain to face a series of legal challenges, but it couldn’t be determined by our Fri. deadline whether the legal landscape factored into the decision to cancel DualDisc activities at CEDIA. The German inventor who claims he holds the basic patents on hybrid DVDs has vowed to wage a battle to protect his IP, although representatives of the inventor, Dieter Dierks, said. his attorneys haven't yet approached the DualDisc consortium and likely wouldn't do so until later this week. Meanwhile, CD license administrator Philips publicly has said it would bar DualDisc products from bearing the Compact Disc logo on the ground they're out of spec and it feared they would spur an elevated level of product returns. Earlier last week, DVD Plus principal Dierks said his company commissioned independent lab tests of DualDisc that confirmed its structure and other features infringed his patents to the “invertible disc” technology.

After analyzing the tests, completed Aug. 25, Dierks said his lawyers concluded DualDisc does infringe the company’s patents and wrote a memorandum to that effect that his company would present to DualDisc’s backers. Those include major music labels BMG, EMI, Sony, Universal, Warner and independent 5.1 Entertainment, which confirmed their intent to market DualDisc at the NARM convention in San Diego on Aug. 24. The first DualDisc titles were expected to hit stores Oct. 26, with 5.1 Entertainment’s Silverline Records planning 25 releases each on Nov. 2 and Nov. 16. At CEDIA, Silverline planned to demonstrate its titles in conjunction with Dolby Labs and to elucidate on its plans and aspirations for the flipper discs. The 5 majors test-marketed DualDisc in Feb. at selected stores in Boston and Seattle, and at NARM claimed 82% of customers were “satisfied or extremely satisfied” and 90% would recommend DualDisc to a friend. The labels, though, didn’t divulge the size of the sample or DualDisc sales in the 3-week test. Despite longstanding claims by Dierks, who holds granted and pending patents to the hybrid technology, the DualDisc labels seemed emboldened to launch the flippers following a change in the DVD specifications by the DVD Forum in June.

At that time, the Forum issued a “supplement” to the DVD Format Book that permitted a “single thin layer disc.” Compared with the standard 0.6 mm half of a bonded DVD, the changed spec permits a 0.58 mm layer -- and a 10% reduction in reflectivity that’s the same as for the 2nd layer on a dual-layer DVD. A thinner DVD layer would enable the manufacturing of hybrids whose CD side is also shaved. With all hybrid discs, there have been concerns about playability, not only because of disc thickness, but because of aerodynamic and optical issues. DVDs are made from 2 halves 0.6 mm each and bonded back-to-back to create the 1.2 mm standard disc. For DVDs and CDs, the maximum allowable thickness is 1.5 mm. But a CD’s data layer normally is located 1.1 mm below the disc’s clear surface, so, for hybrids, the DVD and CD sides are made thinner to remain within the 1.5 mm maximum. Given a 0.58 mm DVD side, the CD would have to be about 0.9 mm to pass spec. But because the clear layers of discs above the data-bearing reflective substrates act as lenses, changes in the thickness of those layers can lead to “focus error,” experts said. Additionally, from bonding discs of different thicknesses, slight warping of the surfaces can lead to aerodynamic or “tilt errors.” The DualDiscs tested by DVD Plus at the independent AudioDev lab in Malmo, Sweden, were 1.49 mm thick, Dierks says. Aside from any issues of playability, that thickness puts the DualDisc within the scope of Dierks’ patent. That patent (EP 0914653B1) automatically covers all “invertible discs” from 1.1- to 1.5mm thick, Dierks said: “If they had made DualDisc 1.51 mm I couldn’t do anything about it legally, although the discs would be out of spec.” Currently, DVD Plus hybrids are down to 1.41 mm -- and the DVD side is a standard 0.6 mm. “We don’t alter the DVD side at all,” Dierks said. That will enable DVD Plus to offer hybrids with a dual-layer or 8.5 GB “DVD-9" capacity.

Additionally, DVD Plus hybrids can accommodate CD’s full capacity of 74-78 min., while DualDisc is so far limited to 63 min. according to tests by AudioDev and other labs on the DualDiscs test marketed earlier this year. Despite DualDisc being within the 1.5 mm spec for CD and DVD, Philips has maintained the flipper’s thinner CD side doesn’t comply with the Red Book specification, and therefore can’t carry the trademarked CD logo that it administers for itself and CD co-developer Sony. During a panel discussion on DualDisc at last week’s Entertainment Media Expo in Hollywood, a Philips executive in the audience reiterated that point. He also told the audience that Philips had tested DualDisc, already found it out of spec, and that performance would deteriorate further with repeated playing of the disc. DVD Plus International has patents granted in Europe and Australia, but still pending in Japan and the U.S. If DualDiscs are imported to Europe or Australia, the company will apply to the relevant trade and customs authorities to have them blocked, Dierks said. If DualDiscs are manufactured in Europe, other legal recourse is available to DVD Plus, he said. “I hope we don’t need to declare war,” Dierks said. “They [the labels] may think I’m a little guy. But I’m not a toothless tiger. I can hit back in Europe and Australia.” A source close to the DualDisc backers says there’s no plan to sell it in the markets where Dierks has granted patents.

DVD Plus has met with all the major labels and made them aware of its patent position, Dierks said. The company hopes to license them for DVD Plus on a volume lier agreement to use the DVD Plus logo on hybrids. “We can stop Warner if they don’t use our logo, even if they want to call it DualDisc,” he said. Warner has applied for trademarks to the DualDisc name and logo. No patent applications for DualDisc technology or manufacturing have come to light. The hybrids pressed for the U.S. test market were made by Cinram and Sony’s DADC. As for any objection by the labels that there’s insufficient capacity in DVD Plus replication for a market as large as the U.S., Dierks said any replicator -- such as powerhouses Cinram or Technicolor -- can manufacture DVD Plus once it’s licensed and acquires the necessary molds. The Singulus Spaceline equipment now being used for DVD Plus in Europe can churn out 22,000 hybrids daily, and a newer version can handle 33,000, Dierks said. A replicator he declined to name will begin producing DVD Plus discs in the U.S. this month for licensee EnXnet, which markets the hybrid under the OneDisc name “powered by DVD Plus” and already has supplied the hybrids for indie-label Rounder Records. Another DVD Plus innovation slated for this month is labeling on the DVD and CD sides, Dierks told us. The printing, performed by a laser process, doesn’t interfere with the DVD or CD player’s laser reading the data layers. So far, printed labels haven’t been possible for hybrids. The respective sides of DVD Plus discs are further identifiable by gold coloration on the DVD side and silver on the CD side royalty basis -- and wants Warner to stick with its earlier agreement to use the DVD Plus logo on hybrids. “We can stop Warner if they don’t use our logo, even if they want to call it DualDisc,” he said. Warner has applied for trademarks to the DualDisc name and logo. No patent applications for DualDisc technology or manufacturing have come to light. The hybrids pressed for the U.S. test market were made by Cinram and Sony’s DADC.

As for any objection by the labels that there’s insufficient capacity in DVD Plus replication for a market as large as the U.S., Dierks said any replicator -- such as powerhouses Cinram or Technicolor -- can manufacture DVD Plus once it’s licensed and acquires the necessary molds. The Singulus Spaceline equipment now being used for DVD Plus in Europe can churn out 22,000 hybrids daily, and a newer version can handle 33,000, Dierks said. A replicator he declined to name will begin producing DVD Plus discs in the U.S. this month for licensee EnXnet, which markets the hybrid under the OneDisc name “powered by DVD Plus” and already has supplied the hybrids for indie-label Rounder Records. Another DVD Plus innovation slated for this month is labeling on the DVD and CD sides, Dierks says. The printing, performed by a laser process, doesn’t interfere with the DVD or CD player’s laser reading the data layers. So far, printed labels haven’t been possible for hybrids. The respective sides of DVD Plus discs are further identifiable by gold coloration on the DVD side and silver on the CD side.

[NMyTree]

They should concentrate on improving the mastering, production and quality control of standard Redbook CDs.

And also focus on higher quality recording standards and production in the studio.

Sell CDs for a reasonable price and provide creative new artists (bands/musicians), as opposed to the conveyer-belt clones and contrived Pop group garbage, they've been flooding the radio-waves with, for the last 10 years.

[Patt]

They should concentrate on improving the mastering, production and quality control of standard Redbook CDs.

I agree with the above statement if nothing else, just to simplify everything.

Can anyone tell me what dual disc is? ...is it a different size or maybe music on both sides?
.....thanks.

[Cracking Oboe]

Can anyone tell me what dual disc is? ...is it a different size or maybe music on both sides?
.....thanks.

Hi Patt,

I own one dual disc. It is Diana Krall's newest release, and it has the CD on one side of the disc, flip it over, and it has High resolution DVD-A. I think it is a great solution to the high res. marketing problems. The CD side plays fine on all of my various players, and the DVD-A side plays great on my DVD-A player.

Cracking!

[Patt]

Thank's Cracking.......

[gianni]

Problem is, not many of these Dualdiisks that I seen have DVD-A --mostly DD.
And some CD players won't play them. Right now I am so anti-big label and big mass market equipment producers for what they've done to us with the hi rez formats and what the movie industry will do to us w/ the upcoming DVD war, that I hope they all really take it in the freakin shorts. Middle digits to them.

[Snap]

The New Dave Mathews Band is dual disk. The CD side is all I have listened to so far. And the CD side plays fine in the car.

I just don't dig the fact that both sides can get scratched now I am ruff on CD's in the car.

I wonder if the DVD-A side can do anything to help out this album. Definatly not DMB better work that is for SURE!

[will1066]

Got the new Oasis DualDisc. My dedicated CD player reads the CD side fine. Haven't tried the DVD side yet.

[RebelMan]

Problem is, not many of these Dualdiisks that I seen have DVD-A --mostly DD.
And some CD players won't play them.

Virtually all DualDiscs will play just fine in compatible CD players. It has been stated, by CD player manufacturers, that less than 50 cases have been reported were there were real problems. Most of the issues repoted in the press were unfounded, and for good reason, potential litigation.

If you are experiencing problems with DualDiscs and your CD player, chances are your player does not conform to the Red Book specifications as well as it should. You will find the early announcements made by the manufacturers regarding DualDisc playablity have been largely retracted.

[mitch57]

Virtually all DualDiscs will play just fine in compatible CD players. It has been stated, by CD player manufacturers, that less than 50 cases have been reported were there were real problems. Most of the issues repoted in the press were unfounded, and for good reason, potential litigation.

If you are experiencing problems with DualDiscs and your CD player, chances are your player does not conform to the Red Book specifications as well as it should. You will find the early announcements made by the manufacturers regarding DualDisc playablity have been largely retracted.

Maybe only 50 cases reported but I'll bet there are hundreds more that haven't been reported. I would suspect most have not been reported because they know they won't be covered under warranty.

I for one still can't play the CD layer on any of my Dual Disks. I have the Integra DPC 8.5 DVD changer. My car CD player plays them but has problems reading them at times and gives me an error.

Integra has not retracted their statements about not using Dual Disk.

http://www.integrahometheater.com/faqs_detail.cfm?detail=1&id=141

What are you basing your information on?

[RebelMan]

What are you basing your information on?

June issue of Hi-Fi News.