Help a Lighting Noob or.. Halogens and Lutron :)

**Andrew Pratt** · 27 December 2003, 20:12 Saturday

Well you're beyond my expertise with something this complex but off the top of my head I'd look into the Lutron Spacer sytem. It can handle multiple zones and does dimming really well. As for dimming halogens though that could be a problem as they usually don't like to be dimmed...at least not that I've found.

**Bent** · 27 December 2003, 22:28 Saturday

I'll have a reply for you tonight on a sweet expandable set up that allows for computer control, dimming, macros, and IR initiated macros.

I'll need the time to type it up though.

Soon.

**Chris D** · 27 December 2003, 23:59 Saturday

Hey Ben, could you send that over my way as well? Thanks!

CHRIS
Luke: "Hey, I'm not such a bad pilot myself, you know"

**Lex** · 28 December 2003, 00:26 Sunday

Just send it to everyone Bent, lol. Seriously post it up for all to see, would be a good read.

Lex

**Bent** · 28 December 2003, 00:54 Sunday

OK, here's what I'm using, YMMV.

here is the ocelot

In my Rec Room (I wish I felt comfortable calling it a theater, but I just can't quite yet do that, but you are welcome to check my profile out), I have 4 seperate lighting ccts that are controlled by Leviton's Decora Home Control series (DHC) dimmers and switches, I have a incandescent can light at the bottom of my stairs with a master at the bottom of the stairs and a slave switch at the top (these switches replaced the conventional three-ways that were there before I got into home theater). I also have three of the same type of incandescent can lights across the rear of the theater (there, I said theater twice now!) on a 600 watt Leviton DHC scene capable dimmer (16000 series) as well as a pair of wall sconces on either side of my seating area which are also on a master/slave arrangement of DHC scene capable dimmer. Now, for the part that goes against the electric code... I have a pair of those tall halogen (line level voltage) torchiers (pardon my French, I just call them tall bright lamps) that used to have built in dimmers in either lamp, I bypassed the built in dimmers, and used another master/slave combo of Leviton DHC scene capable dimmer (albeit one rated at 1000 watts, instead of the usual 600 watts) to dim the output of the bottom half of the duplex receptacle (you shouldn't dim a receptacle, as most electronic items won't fair well when being fed a reduced and chopped waveform.) these two lamps flank my entertainment unit that surrounds my 56" Panasonic tv.
So if you can picture this, I have at the front, two halogen floor lamps, at eitehr side there are two wall sconces, and at the rear there are 3 recessed can lights in the ceiling as well as a fourth light at the foot of my stairwell at the entrance to the theater.

All of these dimmers look exactly like a normal Leviton Decora type paddle dimmer, except that they have some magic stuff inside, they respond to powerline carrier commands and are addressable, (they have those two dials under the faceplate just like the Powerhouse modules you can find at Radio Shack). you can use an X-10 plug-in remote dimmer module (Leviton hates the word X-10, but if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and smells like a duck...) for basic dimming/on-off controls, but I took it one or two steps better...

I also have an Applied Digital Inc. Ocelot automation controller hooked up to inject powerline carrier signals that these Leviton dimmers will recognize. The Ocelot is like a learning remote in reverse, it is a learning IR receiver. It will "see" incoming IR commands (that you have pre-programmed the ocelot to recognize) and respond to them in any manor you wish, depending on what kind of interface modules you have installed.
My Ocelot controlls my lighting via macros, it will, on receipt of a single IR command (which it can be taught by any "ANY" spare IR remote you have laying around) initiate a lighting macro that can change any of the light ccts in my theater to any individual setting,
IE, upon receipt of the "MOVIE" lighting scene button (I have a HTM MX-500 remote that has ten buttons along side a customizable LCD screen that can be given any 5 letter text combination, so I chose "MOVIE") the ocelot "sees" this, and sends out via the powerline, a string of addressed commands that each individual dimmer will recognize and respond to. So the lamps drop to 20%, the sconces drop to 5 %, the rear cans drop to 0% and the stairwell light clicks off.

I have 6 other macros with names like MUSIC, TV, GUEST, BRITE, OFF, that change each light to various levels ("BRITE" is all lights on to 100%...)

The ocelot can also fire out pre-learned IR commands on receipt of an IR, or on Reciept or an X-!0 powerline signal, it can also be programmed to run sprinkler systems, maintain a security system, whatever your imagination can come up with. The Ocelot is also set with your latitude/longitude data and calculates your local sun-up/sunset time and can initiate commands based on time of day, date, location, temperature as well as by phone line, modem, etc. it can initiate a phone call to a pre-programmed number, or pager and playback any of (I can't recall how many) voice messages to indicate that, (for example) you well pump has been running steady for 30 minutes, or your furnace has been lit for X amount of time (possibly a door is open or window broken and cold air has caused the furnace to run).

I would highly recomend you check out applied digital's website and read up on the ocelot, you can download their progarmming application (C-MAX) from their web site and get a feel for what the Ocelot (and it's bigger brother, the Leopard touchscreen automation controller) is capable of, and if you have any questions, feel free to ask me (include OCELOT in the subject line if you opt. to e-mail me), I will try to help, or I can direct to some people who I know can.

The reason I chose to go with Leviton and not Lutron, was mainly for a stealth installation, you can't tell my dimmers apart from any other type of paddle type dimmer, and this led to one other bonus, these dimmers are worth a few bucks, (not excessive, but enough that they won't be staying with the house when I move...) I can replace these dimmers with the original switches and not leave the walls hacked up, I'm not sure if that's the case with Lutron.

**Andrew Pratt** · 28 December 2003, 12:06 Sunday

Sounds quite powerful Ben. The lutron switches are no different then regular decora switches so that's not an issue for either method. With the X10 type systems my understanding is that you need them all to be on the same circuit right? If that's true how many lights can you put on one line and remain in agreement with code?

**aud19** · 28 December 2003, 12:55 Sunday

First let me say, that is an absolutely adorable picture Andrew

Thanks Ben! I'll definately be having a look at Applied Digital's products. The ability for it to learn ANY IR command could be just too cool! I've got a nice little LCD touchscreen ( RAV 2000 ) that came with my old Yamaha reciever that I should be able to program with some basic codes, label the buttons etc. :T Do you have any problems with hum or electrical noise when you're dimming those halogens Ben? Also if you (or anyone else) could comment on my fear of cascading switches, I'd be grateful ;x(

Well I guess I'm off to the Levitron and Lutron pages (after I catch up on the rest of HTGuide of course

) to do some homework

Jason

Need a new display? Questions about new display technologies? Visit RPTVs, plasmas, and other monitors @ HTguide

**Bent** · 28 December 2003, 23:25 Sunday

Andrew, X-10 doesm't need to be on the same cct, (but it helps...).
My 4 lighting ccts are on 3 seperate breakers (But the three breakers are on the same leg, as I don't have a "phase coupler" to bridge my distribution panel from leg 1 to leg 2, and I don't have the signal strength to overcome the impedance (nor distance to) my pole mounted distribution transformer. (X-10 carrier signals operate at 120 khz, and the winding or secondary coil on the distribution transformer outside on the hydro pole presents an inductive load to this signal, and as you prolly know, we use coils or inductors in crossovers to filter or reduce high frequencies...)
There are capacitive type couplers available that can be wired to a double breaker at the distribution panel, (or active coupler/repaters that will bridge as well as amplify X-10 signals). As far as the number of devices per cct, I believe there is no limit up to the rated cct current (defined by breaker and conductor size) in a fixed device type application such as lighting, and 12 devices when including 120V receptacles, but don't quote me - my electrical code knowledge comes from a thick book that is at work (which I seldom ever even have to open.)
Halogen lights can be dimmed just as incandescant ones can, but you may run into a problem dimming low voltage halogens, for that you need dimmers that can dim an inductive load such as the step-down transformer that feeds the low voltage halogens. Some manufactures call these a magnetic type dimmer for whatever reason.
You may find that some halogens as well as some incandescants hum like a bugger when they are dimmed, this can be reduced by choosing a different type of bulb, or by adding a "lamp de-buzzing coil", which I know nothing about, other than it is mentioned in one of Leviton's product catalogs.

Aud19,
You mentioned cascading switches, I don't know what you mean by cascading... is this when you have a switch at one end of a hallway and a switch at the other end and they both control the same light? (this is called a 3-way switch). There is nothing to complicated about wiring these and it's actually easier to wire up 3-way dimmers (but you have to use a master and a slave, a dimmer doesn't like to be fed by another dimmer - even if the first dimmer is left at full brightness.
Another problem that you may run into with using X-10 is signal strength, I purchased an ELK Products signal strength indicator ands did a bit of a site survey as I was installing my hardware, I found that there are certain appliances in the average home that are notorious for "eating" X-10 signals, I had to install a large filter in-line with my Microwave oven cct, as it would devour most of my signal strength as well as two of my satellite receivers (dealt with by 5 amp plug-in filters) The Leviton DHC stuff is very good for noise rejection, and the Ocelot will actaully wait for noise to subside before dumping it's powerline carrier signals onto the house wiring. (thus there can sometimes be a brief delay between pressing your remote control and actaully seeing the lights respond.)
The Ocelot also has another shortfall that apparently the boys at ADI are working on right now, it can't receive an IR signal and send out a X-10 signal at the same time this means that it can't do real time dimming like the lutron's can - unless you add a IR543 module into the mix as well, and your RAV would most certainly have all (or most) of the infra-red X-10 codes built in, this would allow you to select a cct and then dim it in real time. You would have to live with just the preset macro dim level that you chose when you set the ocelot up.

Please note that there are other brands of X-10 compatible stuff as well, brands like Switchlinc, PCS, A-10, are all exremely capable (possibly even more so than Leviton) but also possibly even more expensive, I recall the Canadian price for a 1000 watt PCS dimmer (looks exactly like a decora paddle too) being around 200 dollars. my Leviton 1000 watt unit (for example) was about 140. but the PCS units have an adjustable sensitivity, and a multi-mode ramp rate to dim or brighten faster or slower when called upon.
I would also recomend the use of "deep" utility boxes for these dimmers, it can sometimes be a bit touch and go to fit all those wire-nuts as well as the dimmer into a normal sized box. (trade tricks do exist for removing a box from the wall when it is already mounted and dry-walled in.

Good luck and keep me posted as to which direction you go, automation is the crowning touch to make a theater complete, and I don't mean by pressing the "Play" button on your DVD player and having the lights dim, that gets kinda old awfull fast, I mean having full control of your lighting, heating, ventilation and in my case - even my aquarium light is controlled
by my ocelot to turn on at 10 AM weekdays, off at 10 pm and on at 8:30 am on weekends and off at 10 pm.

L8er,
Ben

**aud19** · 29 December 2003, 17:00 Monday

Originally posted by Bent

Aud19,
You mentioned cascading switches, I don't know what you mean by cascading... is this when you have a switch at one end of a hallway and a switch at the other end and they both control the same light? (this is called a 3-way switch). There is nothing to complicated about wiring these and it's actually easier to wire up 3-way dimmers (but you have to use a master and a slave, a dimmer doesn't like to be fed by another dimmer - even if the first dimmer is left at full brightness.

Yes this is what I meant. It is a three way switch and I'm concerned that having a dimmer at both switch locations would cause what I called a cascading (sorry don't know a better term) situation. Could you elaborate more on the master/slave scenario. I'm unclear as to how that works. I suppose I could simply put a "regular" double decora switch at the top of the stairs to turn the halogens or front entry lights off and on and only have a dimmer on the bottom set of switches...? Would that work? It would definately be cheaper...lol

Jason

Need a new display? Questions about new display technologies? Visit RPTVs, plasmas, and other monitors @ HTguide

**Bent** · 29 December 2003, 17:51 Monday

Nope, it won't work, or at the least it will really really get on your nerves.
Although a dimmer is kinda expensive, its slave counterpart is usually only about 20 bucks.

A local hardwar store here in town has ONE lutron spacer dimmer (600 watt) on their shelves, I thingk they want 60 bucks for it, but no IR remote to go with it. If someone from Winnipeg is interested in it, I can pick it up - if that's a good price. (oh, it would involve a handling charge of one beer...plus material cost).

**aud19** · 29 December 2003, 18:07 Monday

That's too bad that it won't work ESPECIALLY considering there's already a decora plate at the top of the stairs!...lol

So I'm still fuzzy on this whole master/slave thing. How does that work? Obviously I would pick the lower switch to be the master and take care of the dimming. Does the slave then just send a command to the master to dim the light (or turn it off/on) rather than dimming it and turning it off/on itself?

Jason

Need a new display? Questions about new display technologies? Visit RPTVs, plasmas, and other monitors @ HTguide

**Bent** · 29 December 2003, 18:25 Monday

Yup, you got it.
The slave is just a wired remote for the master, although a slave dimmer still uses all three wires that exist in a three way installation.

I actaully did have a conventional dimmer installed with a normal three way at the other loaction for a while. It seemed that the light was never at the right level when I used the switch, and I wound up having to go over to the other location to set the level anyway. You might get away with this type of installation if you use a Lutron and have the remote at hand all the time, but there will always be those times you left it on the coffee table - then you are back to the same place you were if you didn't have a remote at all.

**Chris D** · 30 December 2003, 04:46 Tuesday

I have a Lutron Spacer dimmer that I installed in our master bedroom, that came with a remote control, to add to the theater feel of our bedroom setup. $50 at Home Depot.

CHRIS
Luke: "Hey, I'm not such a bad pilot myself, you know"

**aud19** · 30 December 2003, 13:39 Tuesday

Well I'm still a little confused about how the original wiring still applies to a slave switch but ain't "blind faith" a wonderful thing!

Chris, is that remote IR or RF?

Jason

Need a new display? Questions about new display technologies? Visit RPTVs, plasmas, and other monitors @ HTguide

**Chris D** · 30 December 2003, 17:07 Tuesday

My dimmer is definitely IR. RF would have been nice for the times that items get placed on dressers and what-not, blocking my line-of-sight to the wall plate, but in general IR works fine.

CHRIS
Luke: "Hey, I'm not such a bad pilot myself, you know"

**aud19** · 31 December 2003, 13:21 Wednesday

Perfect! That's what I want anyway so I can program my (IR) touchscreen remote to control them

8)

Jason

Need a new display? Questions about new display technologies? Visit RPTVs, plasmas, and other monitors @ HTguide

**Bent** · 06 January 2004, 00:06 Tuesday

Well?
Get Any over the holidays? (lighting controls, I mean).

**aud19** · 06 January 2004, 13:16 Tuesday

No...

Was planning to do it this month but the girlfriend and I discovered that our old film camera wasn't working over the holidays and now I'm in the market for a nice digital cam so the lighting control will have to wait a bit unfortunately. Here's the thread on the digicam: http://www.htguide.com/CFBoards/inde...artRow=1&CFB=1 Right now I'm leaning towards the Olympus 750.

Jason

Need a new display? Questions about new display technologies? Visit RPTVs, plasmas, and other monitors @ HTguide

**aud19** · 18 January 2004, 14:34 Sunday

Small update:

One of my coworkers had a meeting last week with a gentleman selling LED based interior lighting and I overheard a bit of it

So... I've got to do some research but when I can afford to start doing this stuff (hopefully by summer) I'm hoping LED based lighting might be a good alternative for me :P

Just something for you folks to consider too

Jason

Need a new display? Questions about new display technologies? Visit RPTVs, plasmas, and other monitors @ HTguide

Help a Lighting Noob or.. Halogens and Lutron :)

Help a Lighting Noob or.. Halogens and Lutron :)

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