Need help understanding HD DVD and Blu Ray

[Pez]

I consider myself to be fairly knowledgeable when it comes to home theater as my friends/family/co-workers typically come to me for advice or installation help. However, the two new formats for movies have me scratching my head a little.

I must admit I don’t know a whole lot of about HD DVD and Blu Ray other than they can provide better audio and video. From a consumer standpoint that may be all I need to know. I haven’t considered either one at this point for a couple of reasons. First, I am not to keen on a format war as last time I picked a "side" I ended up wasting a lot of money. This was when Sega came out with the Saturn (sometime around 1995/6, my third year of college) and I bought one right away over the PS1. Turned out to be a bad decision that still gets me all these years later. Being a poor college student is no time to pick the wrong side considering what the Saturn cost - $400.

Secondly, my TV can only support up to 1080i and based on what I know either of these new formats would have no added benefit on the video side. Do you have to have a 1080P TV? On the audio side it would make a difference but I thought to date neither HD DVD or Blu Ray has the new surround sound formats (DD+ and the DTS equivalent). This leads into another problem - if I am wrong and they do have the new sound formats I have no desire to run a bunch of cables from the player to my pre/pro's multi-channel input. I already have too many wires in my HT system and don’t want to add 6 or more. I think HDMI 1.3 will correct this but then I would need a new pre/pro and who knows when those will be available. And is HDMI 1.3 even close to being offered on HT gear?

Don’t get me wrong, I really want to take advantage of one or both of these new formats but I just don’t see where it would benefit me, at least not right now. I do plan on getting a new TV but not for another year or two. I am very a happy with my current one and am going to wait till the warranty runs out. It just seems the cost involved is going to be significant. Unfortunately I have a large student loan payment to deal with for another 10 years and am trying to save to buy a house, that sort of dictates my finances.

Basically is my thinking right about my TV not being able to take advantage of the new formats correct? What about the audio side, am I on the right track? What are the differences between HD DVD and Blu Ray, is there a simple breakdown?

[Chris D]

Hey, Pez, GREAT questions.

- I believe you truly represent a huge population of the mass public's opinion right now, which is why so many of us haven't made the jump yet to either format.

- Yes, both formats add video benefit, and will be the only source of native high-def material available to you other than TV broadcast and things like game consoles. They can be used for 720p and 1080i, not just 1080p, and SHOULD look better than upscaled DVD's. (but don't always)

- You're realizing problems with implementing the new HD audio formats. Yes, the current disc releases are sometimes incorporating new audio formats like TrueHD. But HDMI 1.3 isn't up to speed in product release yet, so you'll need a player that does decoding with analog multichannel outputs. I don't think we'll see products with HDMI 1.3 for another 6 months.

[Nolan B]

Good question hope i can shed some light with my experience so far.

Picture quality:
I am certainly more picky about picture quality then the general public. I went from a DVD/iScan HD hooked up to my 50" 1366x768p plasma to the Toshiba HD DVD player and the jump in picture quality is nothing short of jaw dropping. You do not need a 1080p TV to enjoy the serious benefits from either format. The Toshiba HD A1 can be had for less then $400 and it outperforms any SD DVD player ever made. The A1 also does an above average job of upscaling and after owning a iScan HD im fairly picky in that respect.

I own 42 HD DVDs and havent bought a SD DVD in 3 months. I have been spending thousands on my home theater in the last few years and nothing I bought has made such an imrovement in my experience regardless of price.

Audio:
In order to fully get the audio benefits you need to connect the player via the analog ouputs just like a DVD A player. Having said that if you connect it by the Coax the sound will be converted to the highest possible DTS quality which is still noticably better the current DD. I watched constantine last night with the lossless TrueHD track and its like watching it for the first time. Its like comparing the difference between a CD and DVD A/SACD.

Farmat:
When it comes to choosing which one you are best to decide which one has the content (today) which best suites you. HD DVD is the universal leader with overalll picture quality and for me has way more interesting tittles. Both formats will likely be around a while, but HD DVD is way outdoing blue ray (see below link).

http://www.thedvdwars.com

Here is a list of my current HD DVD collection. Feel free ask any questions.

1.Red Dragon
2.Army of Darkness
3.Perfect Storm
4.Training Day
5.Seabiscuit
6.Pitch Black
7.Bourne Supremacy
8.Last Samuri
9.Goodfellas
10.Million Dollar Baby
11.Serenity
12.Apollo 13
13.Caddyshack
14.Cinderella Man
15.Troy
16.U2
17.Aeon Flux
18.Sleepy Hallow
19.Land of the Dead
20.Dazed and Confused
21.Lethal Weapon 1
22.Lethal Weapon 2
23.The Thing
24.Lake House
25.Grand Prix
26.Batman Reurns
27.MI3
28.MI2
29.MI1
30.Polar Express
31.king kong
32.v for vendetta
33.slither
34.Christmas story
35.Christmas vacation
36.Miami vice
37.we were soldiers
38.constantine
39.equallibrium
40.the break up
41.superman returns
42.slither

[JonMarsh]

Whether you have a 1080P or 1080i display is moot- 1080i is deinterlaced on the display, so the spatial resolution winds up being the same.

HD is about six times the spatial resolution of DVD- 1920 X 1080, versus 720 X 480.

The audio codecs are better, but very player dependent on what you can get- a player like the HD-A1, or HD-XA1, which can decode to analog outputs, is a good bet- though the "down converted" to high res DD or DTS is still usually better sounding than anything you'll encounter on a DVD.

I have about 32 titles at present, more on the way. Because of the late arrival of Blu Ray and the issues with early players and disks from Blu Ray, as well as their cost, I've elected to go with HD-DVD for now- regardless of what happens, I'll be able to play these disks in the future (just like my large SACD collection), and at some point might add Blu Ray in the future, once pricing is more reasonable and they get the kinks out of making dual layer disks with advanced codecs (MPEG2 is not so efficient for HD's resolution, and the single layer Blu Ray releases in many cases have been lackluster (two words: Fifth Element). I've been very pleased with what I've seen so far on HD-DVD.

IF you already have an Xbox 360, you might want to try a HD-DVD add-on drive, available for $199. Low cost way to get your feet wet. I use the VGA output for projector or flat panel display, can go all the way up to 1080p.

HD-DVD can look quite good "downconverted" to a lower resolution like 1366 X 768 native HD displays or 1680X1050 monitors, but the best results, especially for wide viewing angles, are with a 1920 X 1080 display. The cheapest way to get into that is probably something like the Westinghouse 37" 1080P LCD monitor, for ~$1100 street with careful shopping.

[KeithM]

The cheapest way to get into that is probably something like the Westinghouse 37" 1080P LCD monitor, for ~$1100 street with careful shopping.

Actually shopko had it on sale last weekend for $900

[Pez]

Thanks for the input.

I actually do own a Xbox 360 and have considered getting the add on HD DVD drive. I also plan to get a PS3 whenever I can get my hands on one. Even though both most likely cant be considered benchmark in terms of pure movie playing abaility I see it as the most cost effective way to get both formats while having something that I can use to satisfy my gaming hunger.

One more question - can the video benefits of both formats only be relaized through an HDMI cable or is component ok to use?

Its funny, if I had to classify myself I would say I am more of a videophile than an audiophile buy my system is definately geared towards the audio side. At least in a year or two I will fix that when I get a new TV.

In case your wondering my HT gear is it can be seen in the following link:

http://home.comcast.net/~atpezzo/Main.html

[Nolan B]

Thanks for the input.

I actually do own a Xbox 360 and have considered getting the add on HD DVD drive. I also plan to get a PS3 whenever I can get my hands on one. Even though both most likely cant be considered benchmark in terms of pure movie playing abaility I see it as the most cost effective way to get both formats while having something that I can use to satisfy my gaming hunger.

One more question - can the video benefits of both formats only be relaized through an HDMI cable or is component ok to use?

Its funny, if I had to classify myself I would say I am more of a videophile than an audiophile buy my system is definately geared towards the audio side. At least in a year or two I will fix that when I get a new TV.

In case your wondering my HT gear is it can be seen in the following link:

http://home.comcast.net/~atpezzo/Main.html

I have read very good reviews in terms of picture quality from the xbox add on. To answer your other questions about needing HDMI...no you dont need HDMI to realize a benefit of the better picture quality.

If I were you I would get the Add on in a heart beat.

[NMG]

Does anyone know if the HD-DVD players can output to a TV with only component inputs? I'm thinking about adding the Xbox 360 HD-DVD player to my Xbox 360, but I couldn't seem to find whether you could use component cables. Unfortunately, my TV is older and that the only HD compatible inputs I have.

Thanks in advance!

[Nolan B]

Does anyone know if the HD-DVD players can output to a TV with only component inputs? I'm thinking about adding the Xbox 360 HD-DVD player to my Xbox 360, but I couldn't seem to find whether you could use component cables. Unfortunately, my TV is older and that the only HD compatible inputs I have.

Thanks in advance!

All current HD DVD players can be connected via component. The HD DVD add-on will attached to your xbox 360 via USB ( i think) and you just leave the xbox 360 hooked up to the tv the way it is (via component)

[peterS]

is blu ray still using such bad encoding as this summer?
whats the story with that?

[NMG]

Very cool. Thanks for the response Vancouver!

[peterS]

All current HD DVD players can be connected via component. The HD DVD add-on will attached to your xbox 360 via USB ( i think) and you just leave the xbox 360 hooked up to the tv the way it is (via component)

i believe the do have hdmi - maybe not released yet
which you will need for 1080p i believe

[JonMarsh]

is blu ray still using such bad encoding as this summer?
whats the story with that?

The recent reviews on newer titles indicate improvement, but Sony is still sticking with Mpeg2 for all their releases, and even the dual layer 50GB disks seem to be a mixed bag according to reports. Of course, the spin from Sony is that it's just shortcomings in the quality of the source elements, but Geez, folkls, it's THEIR source elements!

It's like saying, too bad that pumkin pie I'm serving you isn't completely delicious, it's not the fault of my oven, it's just that my wife can't cook worth a tinker's dam.

I expect it will all be sorted out in time, but it strikes me that Sony has been arrogant and indifferent to actually delivering a superior product to the competition, they bought their own PR so much. Now, since the competition didn't just roll over and die, but really put in a pretty decent effort compared with what some folks expected, they're caught a bit short.

In the long run, I'm convinced competition is good for everyone.

~jon

[peterS]

the first releases were criminaly bad
worse than dvds played at native rez!
hddvd deliverd from day one- player and material

[Brandon B]

I have read a couple of places that the PS3 will play SACD, and convert the DSD, and output it as high rez multichannel PCM over HDMI 1.3. Anyone know anything about that?

BB

[Nolan B]

i believe the do have hdmi - maybe not released yet
which you will need for 1080p i believe

they all do have HDMI (accpt for the 360 add on) but you can also use the component if you wish. You will need HDMI for 1080p, you are right. The 360 add-on can do 1080p via the VGA connection however.

[Nolan B]

I have read a couple of places that the PS3 will play SACD, and convert the DSD, and output it as high rez multichannel PCM over HDMI 1.3. Anyone know anything about that?

BB

from what I have read it can only do SACD in 2 channels. I suppose it will work in all channels via 1.3 once a reciever gets released which can decode SACD via hdmi 1.3. By then im sure there will be better choices then a game console.

[Nolan B]

The recent reviews on newer titles indicate improvement, but Sony is still sticking with Mpeg2 for all their releases, and even the dual layer 50GB disks seem to be a mixed bag according to reports. Of course, the spin from Sony is that it's just shortcomings in the quality of the source elements, but Geez, folkls, it's THEIR source elements!

It's like saying, too bad that pumkin pie I'm serving you isn't completely delicious, it's not the fault of my oven, it's just that my wife can't cook worth a tinker's dam.

I expect it will all be sorted out in time, but it strikes me that Sony has been arrogant and indifferent to actually delivering a superior product to the competition, they bought their own PR so much. Now, since the competition didn't just roll over and die, but really put in a pretty decent effort compared with what some folks expected, they're caught a bit short.

In the long run, I'm convinced competition is good for everyone.

~jon

true :T

and Sony's first BD player (released a week or so ago) doesnt even support the new sound formats.

promise this...
promise that...
deliver nothing...

I would support both formats if both were worth supporting.

[Chris D]

:roll: agreed.

[Brandon B]

from what I have read it can only do SACD in 2 channels. I suppose it will work in all channels via 1.3 once a reciever gets released which can decode SACD via hdmi 1.3. By then im sure there will be better choices then a game console.

I already have a nice multichannel SACD player, this would be a second option, and I am probably getting a PS3 anyway for gaming. Just curious.

[Nolan B]

Here is a very good article on the war and why HD DVD has been and will win the format war.

http://news.digitaltrends.com/talkback158.html

Quote:
Optical HD Battle May Be Over: HD-DVD Wins

By: Rob Enderle

December 6th, 2006

Nearly a year and a half ago I wrote a column saying that Blu-Ray wins or nothing does. This showcases the reality of doing predictions because while the analysis held up, events did not pan out as anticipated and by any current measure HD-DVD will end this year with a decisive win.

The basis for the prediction, which did accurately point out that Sony’s win here might actually cost them more than a loss, was the PS3 and the forecast volumes for that product. Back in August of 2005 we did know that HD-DVD, which used DVD production technology, would be easier to bring to market but it simply did not seem reasonable that Sony would put their PlayStation franchise at risk for anything but a technology they were absolutely certain they could bring to market on time.

That turned out to be incorrect. The problems with Blu-Ray have created extreme cost and execution problems for Sony and now their premier division (instead of being the profit center for Sony) is predicting they will take a $1.5B loss next year largely resulting from this decision. To put this in perspective, just think what would happen if Apple’s iPod group, instead of generating massive profit, suddenly dropped into massive loss. Now you can see why the Sony PlayStation division just changed out their top executives.

Why HD-DVD is Wining

When you talk to either the HD-DVD or the Blu-Ray camp you get the sense that neither actually watches movies much. Both cite features as the reason why folks will pick one or the other. Yes there is a lame shooting game in League of Extraordinary Gentlemen (Blu-Ray) and there are a ton of things you can do interactively in HD-DVD (including changing car colors in one scene in The Fast and Furious III: Tokyo Drift). But the movie market moves on quality of movie, price of player, and price and availability of media.

At launch HD-DVD players were about half the price of Blu-Ray players and the movie price for HD-DVD is generally running about $5 less. In addition, many of the new HD-DVD movies also have regular DVD side which means that buyers, most of which will have both HD-DVD and DVD decks, will get better value with HD-DVD than with Blu-Ray – that’s the theory anyways.

All that being said, the killing blow may have been done by Microsoft who decided to bring to market a $200 HD-DVD option for their Xbox 360 which has been in market a year longer than Sony and is projected to have a near 20x installed base advantage by year end (10M Xbox 360 to 600K PS3). Note that both projections are aggressive but Sony was supposed to originally ship 2M PS3s into the market during the 4th quarter and actual numbers (given they had under 200K at launch) may be closer to 400K. And with a recall possible there is a chance they might not even make that. Add to this that the Xbox 360 HD-DVD drive is for movies only, so each one counts for movie viewing while PS3s may not be used to watch movies and you have a situation where the active movie player advantage by year-end should be between 4x and 6x better for HD-DVD over Blu-Ray.

Finally, HP who had been a big Blu-Ray supporter and dominates the Media Center PC market, introduced a $100 HD-DVD upgrade for their PCs (Sony’s Blu-Ray VIAO solution was just dropped to $749). The impact of this last move is still too early to measure but there is no comparably priced (not even close) solution using Blu-Ray.

If you go to Amazon and look you can see HD-DVDs are solidly ahead and this is before the impact of either the Microsoft or the HP moves, many of which won’t be opened until Christmas or haven’t yet been shipped (HP).

Now Sony will stick with a technology for years after the market has decided on another path and they do have some very strong supporters which include Dell, Apple, and Disney. Dell traditionally has been the PC bellwether company, Apple has the most loyal customer base, and Disney is the only Studio that people ask for by name. So these folks, particularly Sony, could drag this on for years. But if that is the case not only will many in the industry not make money, Sony will probably lose the most because they are still the ones doing the heavy lifting (In addition, after the battery problems, neither Dell nor Apple is as close to Sony as they had been).

Right now it appears impossible for Blu-Ray to gain a substantial lead on HD-DVD, even after massive investment, they likely could only close the gap. If the HD market depends on the emergence of one as a standard and Blu-Ray no longer has a chance to be that standard, how long will it be before the Blu-Ray supporters follow HP and switch sides?

Do You Want One Standard?

Now you can evidently help drive this if you are so inclined. There is a petition that has been set up for you to voice your support if you believe that there should be only one and HD-DVD is that one. You can find the petition here . Evidently they had collected 2,300 signatures at the time of this writing.

The petition was put together by HD NOW where the folks have collected a rather interesting list of supporting material which goes far farther than I have on supporting the conclusion that we’ve prematurely crossed over to the point where HD-DVD has won the High Definition DVD competition.

Does Blu-Ray Die?

Blu-Ray has substantial storage capacity advantages for data and could survive as a high capacity personal computer storage medium. While expensive, one non-Sony vendor’s upcoming Blu-Ray laptop solution costs around $800 on top of a $3000 notebook but it gives that product an unmatched removable media capability. But this is a vastly better storage solution for a high-end PC it isn’t a high volume high definition movie watching solution.

So BluRay could indeed survive but probably not for movies only for PS3 games and high-end optical backup. The real question is does the PS3 survive or whether there will ever be a PS4. Some are saying that the PS3 is in deep trouble and some are saying the PS4 will never arrive with massive game defections from PS3 to Xbox.

Wrapping Up

The market wants one solution for High Definition video and we are already starting to see high definition downloads through services like Xbox live. Apple’s iTV is expected to go even further when it launches early next year. It may actually be too late for either of these platforms to move; if folks move aggressively to downloads for high definition content and if High Definition pay per view cable offerings continue to improve, even if I’m correct and HD-DVD has won, it may have actually prevailed too late in the process to survive for long.

Be that as it may, with a 4x to 6x advantage by year end, you’d have to conclude that HD-DVD has reached a point where it can’t lose and Blu-Ray is only now in a position to ensure both platforms lose. That last option still appears most likely if the market doesn’t move aggressively to one HD platform.