Hearing damage from concert?

[Race Car Driver]

Not really sure where to post a thread like this.. so....

Anyways, Went to see a few bands last night, Hinder, Chevelle, Hoobastank and Nickel Back. Ive been to a few shows before, all were quite loud, but have never had this issue. My right ear ( the ear facing the stage) is still ringing like crazy. Its been over 24 hours and its starting to really piss me off! NB had some loud pyro that would make you jump. Earlier today at work we popped in a test tone cd, the 20k hz track really bothered everyone and I couldnt hear it at all. Thats because i hear 20k non stop right now in my right ear.

Is there anything I should do? Should I call a doc? Few co workers said give it a few days it will go away and I will get it back. Right now listening to music the high freq is all blurred and annoying.

Im pretty bummed right now. I think the show last night jacked up my hearing.

Comments?

[Brandon B]

It will go away after a day or two. But you need to avoid doing this again. You will damage your hearing permanently over time. Do some reading on tinnitus on the web.

My wife did this to her hearing through attending concerts and it now bothers her several times a week (she's 39).

I did it to myself to some degree through overly loud walkman use. The high frequency for me is not so bad, and is more or less unnoticeable. But I have a really obnoxious low frequency hum in my right ear only that appears in quiet situations (i.e. trying to go to sleep at night) that is really loud and distracting. It can be really bad for a few months, and then disappear for a few months. You really don't want to end up with something like that.

Next time take some of the neoprene foam earplugs with you to the concert and if it seems to loud, stuff 'em in.

BB

[ThomasW]

Okay I'll put on my medical hat here.

First, there is nothing you can do at this point in time other than stop listening to music for a while.

Exposure to high SPL results in what's known as a "threshold shift". This means the walls of the cells making up the tympanic membrane change shape in response to the loudness.

Depending on the intensity and duration of the exposure, the cell walls will return approximately to their original shape (note they will never return to their pre-exposure state). Understand that one exposure to a very high SPL, that first threshold shift can result in permanent severe damage.

Most people's hearing returns to it's new baseline in a week or less depending on the exposure.

Long term hearing damage and tinnitus will result from repeated threshold shifts.

In addition, exposure to high SPL will cause the cillia in the inner ear to 'lay down'. With repeated lay downs deafness results.

The smart person after experiencing their first threshold shift will keep ear plugs with them at all times.

I wear plugs at all concerts, movie theaters, or anytime things start getting loud....

Edit to add....tinnitus is not something to be taken lightly. The nonstop high-pitched noise is so bothersome, it drives some people to suicide. And no I'm not kidding.

[Inu_Yasha]

You know what's strange, I went to the same concert about a week back! Luckily I didn't have any hearing damage like you posted but it got incredibly loud!

[David Meek]

Yeah - what Thomas said. Tinnitus isn't something to be ignored - take it from someone that has it. My damage was caused primarily by attending rock concerts without ear protection, but also by large helpings of power tools and shooting rifles, shotguns and handguns. Protect your ears. You can't get good hearing back.

[Race Car Driver]

Thanks for the info, ill give it a few days, man this is driving me nuts.

I suppose the Tool concert tonight didnt help

I coverd my ears quite a bit tonight though, and we were much further away. Although I should have gone and got some plugs

Info taken seriously, I will be picking up some plugs tomorrow when im at the store. And just pray this all stops in the next few days.

[ShadowZA]

Race Car Driver, holding thumbs that the prob goes away soon.

[LikeCoiledSteel]

I suppose the Tool concert tonight didnt help

You bastard! Tool is my favorite band and I have never been to a show. How was the show?

P.S. I hope your ears feel better. I have had Tinnitus for about 10 years in my left ear and it comes and goes. Sometimes a loud high frequency sound comes out of nowhere but goes away after a few seconds. I now avoid all loud events, especially without ear protection.

[Chris D]

To summarize in layman's terms the stuff above, and with what I know, YES, you did do permanent damage to your hearing. Not to overly worry, it's not like you'll never be able to hear again. Your hearing should return very shortly, but with ever-slight degradation.

I'll echo the advice of others to be very protective of your hearing. It's a one-way street... you can always damage your hearing, but you can't get it back! Once you've done permanent damage, it's gone.

As a pilot, I have to be very, very careful.

[Race Car Driver]

You bastard! Tool is my favorite band and I have never been to a show. How was the show?

P.S. I hope your ears feel better. I have had Tinnitus for about 10 years in my left ear and it comes and goes. Sometimes a loud high frequency sound comes out of nowhere but goes away after a few seconds. I now avoid all loud events, especially without ear protection.

On a side note, the Tool show was AMAZING! The first one ive been to and WOW. I have never seen anything like it, not only was the set/show totally crazy, lazers, LED lights, crazy gloss white stage, set, and back drop with video over the stage and set, but the WHOLE CROWD was standing the entire time, it was nuts!!! It was a show where everyone that was there, was there for TOOL, and when they came on, the feeling you got from the crowd was more intense then the band its self. I had goose bumps for an hr and half.

I will NOT be missing them any time in the future, if anyone even likes TOOL the least bit, i suggest you pay the money to check em out when they come to town.... :E

[wkhanna]

Since I was 9 years old, I’ve been working on and driving cars and motorcycles, and been involved in motor sports. From the drag strips I attended and participated in during the 70's, the road racing circuits in the North East during the 80's and 90's, to riding motorcycles from time I could keep one up (at least most of the time! But that’s a whole other story), some of them possibly louder than they needed to be, up to this very day; I too have learned this hard lesson later than I should have. Ten years ago, I began wearing ear plugs every time I ride my bikes. The damage that has already been done cannot be undone, but I actively take actions to prevent any more damage occurring.

Currently, the manufacturing plant I work at has areas which require mandatory hearing protection be worn at all times. This is definitely serious stuff. Our company conducts annual hearing tests on all employees, as required by OSHA.

PewterTA and I were talking recently about this very issue and how it can effect ones perception of their system and other equipment. I get a copy of my hearing test results every year and track any changes. Not only does my data show more than typical upper range hearing loss for someone my age (people normally experience hearing loss in the higher frequencies as the tissues in the ear become less elastic with age), but I have also suffered loss in mid range too, most likely a result of my careless actions in the past.

So, does this mean my system which sounds neutral, clear and precise to me, would sound overly bright and fatiguing to someone else with little or no significant hearing loss? And what about two people who are evaluating the same piece of equipment or system at the same time under exactly the same condition; do they ‘perceive’ two different sounds not because of the components but because what they ‘hear’ or ‘don’t hear’ in their brain is different?

We spend so much time and effort evaluating equipment, adding room treatments, comparing this and that, but how many actually determine what they can hear first, and then design a system that fits the way they hear? And would it even be worthwhile, since you will usually gravitate to what sounds good to you?

No, I don’t turn the treble up on my pre amp, but the sound of my overall system may be bright compared to others as a way of compensating for my hearing loss I have.

Anyway, RCD, I truly hope your hearing recovers, and you start to protect yourself. After all, you certainly want to be able to enjoy those fricken B&W’s, (that you got for next to nothing), ten and twenty years from now, don’t you? I also hope everyone takes note of what happened and realizes how easily you could unintentional damage the one sense we need most to enjoy this passion of ours.

[george_k]

I always wear ear plug when I go to concerts they are way too loud.

I also wear stealth ear plugs when I go out to clubs. I call them stealth because I take typical yellow or orange foam ear plugs cut about 1/3 off the ends, dab then ends with a black permanent marker and then insert them into my ear. They go in fairly easy but pulling them out is tough so I use a pair of tweezers to pinch the foam at the end and pull them out. I guess in doing so I don't get the benefit of full the protection the ear plugs offer but even in the loudest environments it's still quite comfortable and it doesn't draw any attention.

There has been a few times I didn't have my ear plugs around and got that same ringing problem gotta be careful now as your hearing much like your vision will only get worse with age.

[Jesse111]

I've been suffering with Tinnitus for 20 years. Take it serious. I trace the most hearing damage I caused myself to an AC/DC concert back in the late 70's (the real AC/DC with Bon Scott, but of course that's another thread). I was deaf for 2 days. But my entire life style was very loud music much of the time. If you continue, one day it will come and not go away. In fact it may be too late. That ringing you hear is nerve damage. You are on your way to living with Tinnitus like millions of other people today.

Look up Tinnitus on the internet and learn about it. There is no cure or treatment. But there is a few things you can do to keep it to a minimum.

[joetama]

I grew up with my father owning a PA company.... So even when I was little and my brother and I were playing with the Yamaha 3k and 4k my dad aways told us about protecting our ears. Once a year for fun we would set our entire system up in the back of our office/shop. 36 Meyer MSL-3, 8 Meyer 650R2, 4 Meyer 650P, 16 Meyer PSW-4, 24 Meyer UPA-1(2)P. Now that was loud, but we only woud listen to it with out ear plugs for a short time. We used to practive "safe sound" I never got why that phrase was so funny until I was older. Point being, I would rather be blind than deaf, so you have to always protect your hearing.

[ThomasW]

Look up Tinnitus on the internet and learn about it. There is no cure or treatment. But there is a few things you can do to keep it to a minimum.

It has been reported but not scientifically studied, that taking the supplement 'Ginko globa' can in certain people help mitigate some of the symptoms of tinnitus.

It can't hurt to try this if one doesn't have other conditions that contraindicate taking Ginko.

[LikeCoiledSteel]

On a side note, the Tool show was AMAZING! The first one ive been to and WOW. I have never seen anything like it, not only was the set/show totally crazy, lazers, LED lights, crazy gloss white stage, set, and back drop with video over the stage and set, but the WHOLE CROWD was standing the entire time, it was nuts!!! It was a show where everyone that was there, was there for TOOL, and when they came on, the feeling you got from the crowd was more intense then the band its self. I had goose bumps for an hr and half.

I will NOT be missing them any time in the future, if anyone even likes TOOL the least bit, i suggest you pay the money to check em out when they come to town.... :E

I am not real big on concerts, but if I did go, it would be for Tool. Best band of this generation. Way ahead of thier time. Metaphysical.
Steel

[Kal Rubinson]

Exposure to high SPL results in what's known as a "threshold shift". This means the walls of the cells making up the tympanic membrane change shape in response to the loudness.

Everything else is OK but I think you mean the (hair)cells which sit on the basilar membrane, not the cells making up the tympanic membrane. Otherwise there would be no basis for the frequency specificity of threshold shift.

Kal

[ThomasW]

Kal,

The cell walls of the tympanic membrane itself can distort if exposed to high SPL. There are some interesting microscopic slides of this effect. I don't know if they're available online.

And as you stated there's a loss of elasticity of the cells in the basilar membrane. This is usually associated with age as opposed to acute exposure to high SPL.

Also with prolonged exposure to 85dB or higher SPL the outer hair cells of the cochlea are characteristically damaged, this usually occurs with frequencies between 3kHz-6kHz.

For those reading this that don't know, a 'threshold shift' is simply a change in the threshold where a particular frequency is heard. It's not specific to any particular frequency, but they occur more often at higher frequencies. For example if you have a hearing test and now you hear a 1kHz tone at 90dB, and in a previous test it was 85dB, you have a threshold shift at 1kHz.

Many things cause threshold shifts. Some are exposure to high SPL, punctured ear drum, medications, aging, illness, and on and on...

[bigburner]

We spend so much time and effort evaluating equipment, adding room treatments, comparing this and that, but how many actually determine what they can hear first

That's very insightful wkhanna.

[Kal Rubinson]

That's very insightful wkhanna.

A bugaboo. Whatever it is you hear, it is a constant. So, if you are always comparing between live sounds and resproduced, your assessment of reality is OK. Also, neural adaptation is unavoidable (did anyone say break-in?), so that EQing a system to compensate is a fool's errand.

Kal

[Chris D]

wkhanna, you're right--there's no point in us paying tens of thousands of $$$ for better equipment if we just destroy the very ears we use to listen to it.

That's like upgrading your video display and then always watching through sunglasses.

[wkhanna]

A bugaboo. Whatever it is you hear, it is a constant. So, if you are always comparing between live sounds and reproduced, your assessment of reality is OK. Also, neural adaptation is unavoidable (did anyone say break-in?), so that EQing a system to compensate is a fool's errand.

Kal

I agree totally Kal, as I said in the same post "And would it even be worthwhile, since you will usually gravitate to what sounds good to you?"

My intent was to possibly explain one reason why opinions can differ on the same equipment. Also, as in a DIY speaker design, the fq response plot may be very flat, but an individual suffering some degree of hearing loss may not find the sound satisfying. But what if it were designed to compensate in the fq's where hearing loss exists? A sort of ‘prosthetic system’

I agree that if you only compare the sound you hear in reality to reproduced sound, you end up with a system that has the same deficiency as your own hearing. But what if the reproduced sound was compensated to boost what you would hear with 'normal' hearing. Would it be pleasing, or sound unrealistic? Would you 'remember' hearing like that before the damage occurred?

[Kal Rubinson]

I agree totally Kal, as I said in the same post "And would it even be worthwhile, since you will usually gravitate to what sounds good to you?"

That's not what I said nor what I mean.

I agree that if you only compare the sound you hear in reality to reproduced sound, you end up with a system that has the same deficiency as your own hearing.

Again, that is not what I said nor what I mean. If you listen through compromised hearing to both the real world and to reproduced sounds (which you must without prosthetics) you will make the same judgements as any one else performing the same task, assuming both can hear, even if unevenly. For both persons, their hearing filter is a constant. As for ending up with a system that reflects the deficiency, that, too, is unlikely (for the reasons given) unless the loss is very large.

But what if the reproduced sound was compensated to boost what you would hear with 'normal' hearing. Would it be pleasing, or sound unrealistic? Would you 'remember' hearing like that before the damage occurred?

Mixed. I have done the experiment with a friend and, although he appreciated the ease of hearing things that he had heard in the past and that are difficult to discern now, he found the compensatory correction made him uncomfortable. He was unable to listen for long without complaint. Part is probably adaptation mechanisms and part is the incogruity of the harmonic balance between the corrected system and the real world.

Kal

[wkhanna]

I apologize if I missed your point. This is, however a topic that has intrigued me, and I was very interested in your thoughts on the subject.

The session you performed with your friend I find particularly fascinating. Thank you for your response.

[Kal Rubinson]

I apologize if I missed your point. This is, however a topic that has intrigued me, and I was very interested in your thoughts on the subject.

The session you performed with your friend I find particularly fascinating. Thank you for your response.

We were disappointed. We had hoped that we could build a filter for his headphones and one for his audio system but that was not to be.

Kal

[Lex]

Very real topic, and serious. Typically every year in the spring I post a public interest message about protecting your ears while mowing and weedeating, that you only get one set of ears for hearing music and movies, and loud machinery only helps to destroy that which we love. Concerts can be the same.

I wish I'd had the forsight, or knowledge to protect my ears better through a lot of loud music years ago, and I have some occasional ringing, I am sure as a result. Fortunate for me, this is only occasionally this happens, and not all the time. I played rock music, and attended concerts, and was in the band, marching, concert, and listened to music on stereos. That's a lot of noise.

I never listen to my system at extreme SPL now, and I always wear hearing protection while outside, or at any event with a lot of noise if I can think in advance to be prepared.

I wear noise suppressing headset while mowing now with a radio built in, but you do have to guard against overcompensating with radio and I only listen to concert music, or soft jazz, or talk radio, no rock on headset while mowing. I keep traditional ear protectors as well.

But the finned type I think are much better than the foamies, and are a lot less trouble. I had a pair of really good ones in the industrial biz when I was in there, and they got gone, hated that I lost those, then a dog chewed up my favorite pair last year, I was so bummed. I looked everywhere for suitable replacements.

Drug stores carry them to see an alternate selection to home depot/lowes, etc...

[Daryl Furkalo]

So after reading this thread, do I remember to take my earplugs out of the car for the Red Hot Chili Peppers concert last night? Nope. There wasn't extreme SPL's with them atleast.

[ThomasW]

Most modern ear plugs provide an adequate amount of protection, so it's simply a choice of whatever's most comfortable. The standard OTC foam plugs offer up to -29dB of attenuation.

When they first came on the market I had a set of the custom molded plugs made by a audiologist friend. After they self-destructed from years of use, I went back to the tried and true little foam plugs and found I liked them better than the $pendy custom molded ones.

The finned plugs and the wax impreginated cotton plugs have always bothered me.

On occasion I combine the foam plugs with over the ear headphone like ear protectors. That combination is so occlusive it can be a bit disorienting.

I have this funny visual of all the people attending a rock concert wearing the headphone type protectors as the band takes the stage ......... :rofl:

[Lex]

The red neck would say, "well Gosh, I didn't come here to listen to my Mo-in-lo or my old lady, I came here to here some musc, so what the heck do I need them con found thangs fer?!"

seems like I read something about the human being can only take so long in an annechoic chamber it's so quite as to be totally disorienting.

[Martyn]

seems like I read something about the human being can only take so long in an annechoic chamber it's so quite as to be totally disorienting.

It's certainly disconcerting to find that you're listening to the sound of your respiration, the blood in your ears, and even your pulse. It would be torture to wake up in such a place in the dark!

[Snap]

Ear plugs are a must at concerts! Even some clubs it is a good idea.

I had my eardrums tear on a flight one day. Ever since that day my ears are very sensitive to loud loud stuff. So being an audio engineer I have to take it very careful not to damage the devices that are putting money on the table.

I am not sure if people have mentioned this... but I would go to the doc if you have not already. I would also get a hearing test done as well.

[Chris D]

seems like I read something about the human being can only take so long in an annechoic chamber it's so quite as to be totally disorienting.

Yes, I've had an opportunity once to experience a true "anechoic" chamber (as close as you can get) and it is very disconcerting.

Snap, sorry to hear about the ears!

For a while, I've wanted to get custom molded earplugs for myself, but just never got around to it. Ideally, I would get a 2nd set that I would make into earphones as well.

[sokoban]

These things are amazing for live concert going. Honestly I couldn't imagine going to any sort of live music event with amplification and not having these things along. They make the music so much more enjoyable since I can kinda tune the SPL to how I like it.

http://www.etymotic.com/ephp/erme.aspx

Also, they make non-fitted versions that are fairly inexpensive.

http://www.etymotic.com/ephp/er20.aspx

[Chris D]

Sokoban, I use Ety's ER4P's for my earphones. Good stuff.

[Chris D]

Oh, here's my review of the Etymotic ER4P's... this review is also linked from Etymotic's website.

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=5498

[Nick M]

I bring earplugs on the odd chance that I attend a concert too. I also bring them when I see localbands at near-by events.

At work I wear headphone style ear protection when I'm out working on machinery for any length of time (but most of the time I'm in the control room/office or lab which is nice n' quiet).

When I fly I use noise canceling headsets (DC-H20-10's).

My company also requires yearly hearing tests. I have 10/10 hearing in my right ear and 8.5/10 in my left. Kinda weird that each ear is different.

[Chris D]

That's cool, Nick, that you use noise-canceling headphones. I've tried out a set that a guy used flying with me, but have never owned a set for flying myself.