System calibration / Speaker placement question

[number17]

Hey guys, I got a quick question on audio system calibration / speaker placement.

I connected the new 5.1 JM Labs Chrous speakers to my system which includes LG 7832 (Zenith 318) DVD player, Toshiba 57HX83 TV and Marantz 5300 receiver.

It's been ~ 2-3 weeks and the speakers should be worked in already.

Initially when I hooked the system up the sound was a bit on the bright side, and I figured it was just the fact the speakers weren't worked in yet. I gave it a few weeks, and sure most of the brightness has gone away but I have noticed the following problems.

1. When watching movies the speakers are pretty 'directional'. Instead of blending into the sound stage, I can pin point where the speakers are, and this is especially the case for L+R Front speakers. The L-central-R pans aren't natural at all. When watching a concert / listening to music though, this isn't the case at all. The sound stage is deep and imaging is good for music.

2. This doesn't happen for every DVD's but for some DVD's, the high end (e.g. dialogues) sounds a little 'muffed'. It almost seems like there's something covering my ears when it comes to high-end's. Again, this doesn't apply to all DVD's, but it seems like this problem is more obvious for DVD's with good quality sound tracks. The DTS track on Moulin Rouge, for example, really exaggerates this problem where as say, Indiana Jones sounds a lot better.

Do these problem have anything to do with speaker placement? Is there anything I can do about it? I have listened to these JM Lab speaker in the store before and they sure didn't have these problems.

I have not change the HT-EQ setting from default, and have set the treble and bass setting to 0. The system was carefully calibrated using a SPL meter.

For my current speaker placement, my Front L+R speakers are a little toed in, ~ 15 deg so that the the L speaker is pointing towards the L side of my couch (Left of seating position when facing TV) and R speaker is pointing at the R side of the couch. There's ~ 2.5m between the 2 speakers, and I am ~ 3m from each speaker so it is quite ideal. I have set all speakers to 'large' as per the instruction of the speaker manufacturer.

The center stage speaker is placed on top of the TV, pointing a bit downward.

Any suggestion / comments?

Thanks!

[ht_addict]

Hey guys, I got a quick question on audio system calibration / speaker placement.

I connected the new 5.1 JM Labs Chrous speakers to my system which includes LG 7832 (Zenith 318) DVD player, Toshiba 57HX83 TV and Marantz 5300 receiver.

It's been ~ 2-3 weeks and the speakers should be worked in already.

Initially when I hooked the system up the sound was a bit on the bright side, and I figured it was just the fact the speakers weren't worked in yet. I gave it a few weeks, and sure most of the brightness has gone away but I have noticed the following problems.

1. When watching movies the speakers are pretty 'directional'. Instead of blending into the sound stage, I can pin point where the speakers are, and this is especially the case for L+R Front speakers. The L-central-R pans aren't natural at all. When watching a concert / listening to music though, this isn't the case at all. The sound stage is deep and imaging is good for music.

2. This doesn't happen for every DVD's but for some DVD's, the high end (e.g. dialogues) sounds a little 'muffed'. It almost seems like there's something covering my ears when it comes to high-end's. Again, this doesn't apply to all DVD's, but it seems like this problem is more obvious for DVD's with good quality sound tracks. The DTS track on Moulin Rouge, for example, really exaggerates this problem where as say, Indiana Jones sounds a lot better.

Do these problem have anything to do with speaker placement? Is there anything I can do about it? I have listened to these JM Lab speaker in the store before and they sure didn't have these problems.

I have not change the HT-EQ setting from default, and have set the treble and bass setting to 0. The system was carefully calibrated using a SPL meter.

For my current speaker placement, my Front L+R speakers are a little toed in, ~ 15 deg so that the the L speaker is pointing towards the L side of my couch (Left of seating position when facing TV) and R speaker is pointing at the R side of the couch. There's ~ 2.5m between the 2 speakers, and I am ~ 3m from each speaker so it is quite ideal. I have set all speakers to 'large' as per the instruction of the speaker manufacturer.

The center stage speaker is placed on top of the TV, pointing a bit downward.

Any suggestion / comments?

Thanks!

To me it seems like it has to do with your speaker placement. Could be due to you toeing them in 15 deg. Try not toeing them in and see what happens. It could also be due to your room setup causing reflections and adding to the problem. How is your room setup? Also set your speakers to small and lower the crossover if needed. Your going to tax your receiver trying to send a full signal to the speakers. Allow the sub to do its job below 80hz. This maybe the problem.

ht_addict

[aud19]

I'd say start with setting the speakers to small, corssover of 80, experiment with the crossover from there. You may be taxing your amp trying to get them all to play full range not to mention some of the speakers may not be able to handle what you're sending them. You mentioned dialogue sounds muffled, this could be a result of your speaker and/or amp not being able to handle the load. Also confirm that your centre is properly tilted up or down (depending on your placement) towards the listening position. Then experiment with the main pair's toe in for the best balance for music/movies and imaging.

Jason

[number17]

Thanks for the advice, I'll give it a try.

I used to set the speakers to SMALL but with these speakers the manufacturer recommend to set everything to large.

To compound the problem, the Marantz 5300's crossover freq is fixed at 100Hz, while my front towers are capable of going down to 45Hz, and the rear speakers 65Hz.

But let me give that a try and see if that sounds better. I'll keep you guys posted!

[aud19]

Time to upgrade the Marantz? :B :B

It seems quite a few manufacturers recommend setting their speakers to large for some reason...? Starting with what the manufacturer states is never a bad idea but eventually you have to do what sounds best with your gear in your room...

EDIT: Obviously speakers that "only" play down to 45 and 65 hZ are not full range or "large".

Jason

[ht_addict]

Time to upgrade the Marantz? :B :B

It seems quite a few manufacturers recommend setting their speakers to large for some reason...? Starting with what the manufacturer states is never a bad idea but eventually you have to do what sounds best with your gear in your room...

EDIT: Obviously speakers that "only" play down to 45 and 65 hZ are not full range or "large".

Jason

I would second the recommendation about upgrading the Marantz, even if it means picking up a newer model just to get a lower crossover. Though you could also look into getting an external crossover(eg Outlaw ICBM).

ht_addict

[number17]

I am actually a bit confused about the crossover frequency of the Marantz 5300. I did my homework on the web before purchasing the unit, and all the reviews and specifications I could find on net says the crossover frequency is fixed at 80Hz. This includes a Sound&Vision lab test of the receiver:

Bass-Management Performance
Measured results obtained with Dolby Digital test signals.

Subwoofer output frequency response: 24 dB/octave above -6 dB rolloff point of 81Hz

High-pass filter frequency response: 12dB/octave below -3 dB rolloff point at 80Hz

Maximum unclipped subwoofer output: (at reference volume setting, subwoofer trim set to 0) 7.8 volts

Subwoofer distortion (from 6-ch, 30-Hz, 0-dBFS signal: subwoofer trim set to 0) ... 0.03%

But after I purchased the unit I read the manual and it says cutover frequency is 100Hz ???

Anyways I DO like the warm sound nature of the Marantz and have no complaints of the receiver other than its limited bass management. Plus, it's not like every DVD sounds muffed at the high end ... the effect is most obvious for Moulin Rogue though, which is supposingly an excellent DVD for its audio effects.

[number17]

Anyways I did try changing the speaker setting to "small" last night, but I didn't get too much time to sample the difference. I'll spend more time with different settings ...

I first changed the setting to "SMALL" for ALL speakers, and set the subwoofer cutover freq. to 100Hz from the sub. Right off the bat I could tell I was hearing less details, but at the same time the sound seemed to be 'quieter' in terms of noise, especially in the low end.

I changed the setting back to "LARGE" to all just to hear the difference, and no doubt the sound stage is wider with this setting, and I can hear more details. The mid-range seems to come out more, but at the same time I can hear more noises in the low end. I turned down the BASS setting (which applies to the 3 F speakers only) on the receiver and helped.

My ears told me I like the LARGE setting more. As for the 'muffed high-end' problem that I was complaining about, did it fix the problem? To be honest, I couldn't really tell a big difference in the high-end between the 2 settings. So maybe it isn't that. I gotta spend some more time with it though.

For a happy median, I have now set my F L+R speakers to LARGE, all other speakers to SMALL, and set the subwoofer cutover freq to 100Hz. It seemed to give me the best of both worlds when sampling sound tracks from Moulin Rogue. I suspect for other movies though I might now have a problem with L-C-R spans because of different setting for these speakers ... I'll play a few DVD's (Star Wars race track, and X-men track 1) which has that effect tonight to tell.

I am also beginning to think maybe the muffed high end problem is simply because the speakers aren't broken in yet? Or, could it be the speaker cables? I believe I am using 12 gauge monster cables.

[aarsoe]

Can you give us some more details on your room? Size, layout, etc..
What I dont understand is you statement of the speakers being bright, but muffed at the same time..
Try doing a speaker setup, playing pink noise through each channel and listen for differences in the sound from speaker to speaker.
Could be a defective tweeter in the center - but I doubt it.
If one of them sound vastly different (not just a little based on the size of the speaker) then it could be a source of your trouble.

Also check all the speaker cables are correctly attached so that your speakers are all in phase.

[aud19]

If you're using your recievers crossover you will want to defeat the one on your subwoofer by either turning it off (if it has the option) or setting it to it's highest possible setting. Otherwise you run the risk of doubling your crossover with the reciever and sub.

Jason

[number17]

What I dont understand is you statement of the speakers being bright, but muffed at the same time..

I know it's confusing the way I worded it so let me try again.

When I am watching Moulin Rogue, it seems like the dialogues really 'pop out'. Or should I say the high frequencies like the dialogues are played at a noticeably louder volume than the rest of the soundtrack. That's why I called it 'bright' ... that may not be the right word to describe it. I have not changed the EQ setup, nor have I adjusted the treble / bass setting of the receiver.

While the dialogues are 'louder', they are not as 'crisp' or as 'clear' as I'd expect. I already removed the screen off the speakers but it almost sounds like there's a piece of paper or something covering the tweeter. Thats why I called it 'muffed'

Try doing a speaker setup, playing pink noise through each channel and listen for differences in the sound from speaker to speaker.
Could be a defective tweeter in the center - but I doubt it.
If one of them sound vastly different (not just a little based on the size of the speaker) then it could be a source of your trouble.

I've done that when calibrating the speakers, and I don't think it sound any different ... but I can try again.

Also check all the speaker cables are correctly attached so that your speakers are all in phase.

That's the first thing I checked.

If you're using your recievers crossover you will want to defeat the one on your subwoofer by either turning it off (if it has the option) or setting it to it's highest possible setting. Otherwise you run the risk of doubling your crossover with the reciever and sub.

Thanks ... I'll try that tonight.

[aarsoe]

Hmm - if the pink noise sounds the same all way round, then I dont think its the speakers - ie. you should be able to hear a defect or difference very clearly..

Dont know if you have a dvd audio player or sacd player - if you do then try a 5.1 piece of music and "see" if you can replicate the problem.

Only other thing that comes to mind is "dialogue normalisation" - dont know if your marantz is born with it, but if so, try to turn it off and see if that changes something..

[purplepeople]

I am actually a bit confused about the crossover frequency of the Marantz 5300. I did my homework on the web before purchasing the unit, and all the reviews and specifications I could find on net says the crossover frequency is fixed at 80Hz. This includes a Sound&Vision lab test of the receiver:

Bass-Management Performance
Measured results obtained with Dolby Digital test signals.

Subwoofer output frequency response: 24 dB/octave above -6 dB rolloff point of 81Hz

High-pass filter frequency response: 12dB/octave below -3 dB rolloff point at 80Hz

Maximum unclipped subwoofer output: (at reference volume setting, subwoofer trim set to 0) 7.8 volts

Subwoofer distortion (from 6-ch, 30-Hz, 0-dBFS signal: subwoofer trim set to 0) ... 0.03%

But after I purchased the unit I read the manual and it says cutover frequency is 100Hz ???

Anyways I DO like the warm sound nature of the Marantz and have no complaints of the receiver other than its limited bass management. Plus, it's not like every DVD sounds muffed at the high end ... the effect is most obvious for Moulin Rogue though, which is supposingly an excellent DVD for its audio effects.

The stuff in the manual sounds more like a real filter spec as opposed to what you've been seeing (2nd or 3rd hand) on the web.

The FR of any filter can be graphed as two slopes connected by a curve. So a 12db/octave high pass will have a (theoretical) flat response above some corner frequency and a steep slope below it. The interesting stuff happens near the corner frequency where the curve smooths out the transition between the two slopes.

IOW, it is not unusual for you XO filters to have a -3dB freq that is lower than the corner freq.

ensen.

[number17]

Problem Solved!!!

Just to give an update on the problem on my system ... after spending some time researching the internet it seems that the Marantz 5300 receiver, and all Marantz receivers in general, have a known problem of generating unequalized volume for the CC when you use the built-in tool to calibrate (the pink noise for the center channel is louder than the real level during calibration, and if you calibrate to that, the rest of your speakers will in fact be louder than your CC)

That's why even though I was calibrating with a SPL meter and verified with my ears, I was calibrating to an unequal signal and in fact my center center was at a lower level as the rest of the system.

That explains why the system sounds just fine for music in 2 ch mode, but on DVD's like Moulin Rogue the high-end sounds muffed .... it isn't the high-end sounds muffed, but it's overwhelmed by the sound from the FL and FR speakers.

The recommendation is to use an external calibration kit, such as an AVIA or DVE DVD to calibrate the audio system instead of the receiver's pink noise. I don't have neither DVD, but when I turned up the CC by 2 dB the system came alive. Moilin Rogue sounded great again, and I hear all kinds of details on other DVD's. Once I get my hands on those calibration kits I'll calibrate the system correctly. I suspect the CC was 2-3 dB lower.

I'm a happy camper now though!

[aud19]

Glad to hear you got it all sorted :T

Jason

[purplepeople]

...all Marantz receivers in general, have a known problem of generating unequalized volume for the CC when you use the built-in tool to calibrate... That's why even though I was calibrating with a SPL meter and verified with my ears, I was calibrating to an unequal signal and in fact my center center was at a lower level as the rest of the system. ...but when I turned up the CC by 2 dB the system came alive... I suspect the CC was 2-3 dB lower,

Maybe it wasn't taking into account the ProLogic spec of 3dB difference between L-C-R signals.

Does it sound even better at +3dB?

ensen.

[number17]

I could try ...

It doesn't sound muffed anymore at +2dB, but I can definitely try +3dB. I never liked the dialogue to pop out though (or else I'd have picked up a Denon instead) but doesn't hurt to experiement.

What is this +3dB thingy though? Is it a DD standard where the CC should be +3dB higher than the L/R ?

[purplepeople]

Long before DD 5.1 discrete, multi-channel was decoded from a stereo signal that was encoded onto the media using the Hafler scheme. The spec called for 4 recorded signals to be placed onto 2 tracks by taking the surround channel and mixing it in 90 out of phase into the left and 270 deg out of phase into the right. (Or is that the other way around) Centre was automatically encoded as the mono signal that was common to both L and R stereo tracks.

Decoding the surround was done by subtracting the right from the left and playing it into the rear speaker. The L-R signal needed to be leveled at +3.01dB vs L/R pair since the subtract process took half the power out. Decoding the centre was even easier as it was the L+R signal and could be mixed by any summing circuit. It was played back at -3.01dB to account for the power doubling of adding the L/R pair.

The resulting encoded 2-channel was backwards compatible with stereo playback since the surround track would cancel itself out and the centre channel would merely appear as a mono signal. It is interesting to note that 5.0 was originally two rear speakers playing the same L-R signal and adding the subwoofer for 5.1 was merely taking the decoded centre channel and playing through a 120 Hz low pass filter. You can see these legacy compatibilities in present day equipment. Even though most bass management is done at the processor, subs still have their own LPF just in case you need to connect it to a mono'ed L/R mix.

ensen.

PS: Check the 7.1 vs 5.1 thread.... Aussie Geoff has posted links with even more detail. http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=9411