DVD v.s. DVHS Shootout

[Bob]

Last night I had the privilage to watch an extensive demo of DVHS or D-theater (which is what it is being called) at Widescreen Reveiw's incredible reference video theater. I wish that at least one other member would have been there, not only to verify what I saw and heard but also because I am a terrible writer and reveiwer.
Before I get into the demo I just have to say what a great bunch of people work at Widescreen. Gary is just the nicest laid back guy and so is the rest of the staff. Everybody was made to feel welcomed and it was just like going over to a friends house to watch a movie.
When Gary was talking I thought that the room was overly treated and was too dead for my taste. Once the sound came up I realized that maybe it wasn't optimum for conversation but, for movie surround sound it was the best I have heard. Only the second time that I had heard better audio than my own system. Even though they use similar electronics (Theta), and similar style (time and phase correct) speakers, the combination of the Citidal amps and the perfectly designed room, far outshined my weak efforts.
Also in attendence to see the demo was Joe Kane, Neil Sinclair, and a rep from Runco. Or maybe he owns Runco, everybody seem to know him but me. Joe Kane gave a short demo of the new video essentials that he is in the process of preparing. Ever the perfectionist he has really outdone himself. Starting with the first 10 bit editing system so that there are no up and down conversions between the original source and the final poduct. It will certainly be a must buy disc for optimizing your HDTVs.
Before I comment on the actual demo of DVD v.s. D-theater I have to point out that it really wasn't a fair demo. The DVHS player was the consumer grade player available this weekend at the Good Guys for, I beleive $1500.00 plus $200 rebate and a free T2 video going straight to the projector while the DVD player was being fed through $20,000 worth of video processors. A more reasonable demo would be a progressive DVD player without the Runco and Faroudja video processors against the JVC player. Because of this I am going to leave my comments on the video comparisons for last.
My thoughts before the demo was, "Who is this format designed for?" Let's take a brief look at the history of home theaters. The first home theaters that I know of were movie collectors with 16mm projectors. That gave way to the VHS revolution. VHS made owning movies practical, plus you could record off your TV. The sound was superior to what I ever heard on a 16mm set up but, the video was dismal. Along came Laser Discs and film lovers had a medium that was far superior in video and better sound than VHS. So, those that wanted the best became collectors of LDs, those that just wanted to watch movies and didn't care about things like aspect ratios collected and rented VHS. Then came DVD, slight improvement in picture, slight decrease in audio performance, satisfied the studios desire to have a medium that was difficult to copy. So, now where does DVHS come in? It is easy to see why DVD became popular, picture is very good, most people feel the audio is o'k, it is cheap and you can easily rent or buy them.
According to the reps from JVC four studios are all ready on board for making films available in DVHS, remember at the start of DVDs there was only one studio. There will be a rental model so, yes you will be able to rent them. So, there will be product available.
O'k now for the reveiw. The two movies that were compared were U571 and Independence Day. Let's start with the audio. The DVHS is so much better than DVDs that I think the foley and wallow effects crew may have to change how they do things. During one of the scenes in U571 I heard such load breathing behind me that I thought that one of the guests was hypeventilating. Nope, came from the right rear speaker. We had just seen this same clip on DVD and I never noticed the breathing. I don't know how to quantify how much better the sound was using DVHS over DVD. It certainly isn't just a subtle difference.
Now, for the unfair part of the demo. What chance could the DVHS player possibly have against the incredible best you can buy for any amount of money DVD set up at Widescreen? Well, in the words from the fellow from Runco, " I can't decide if this means it is the end of people buying our scalers because why would they when for a fraction of the cost they can buy one of these players? Or, does it mean that sales are going to go up because people are going to hopelessly try to make their DVD player look this good?" I think that says it all.
Three other issues to think about. You can record HDTV on this player. We were shown a clip from the Tonight Show that had been recorded the night before through a new Samsung set top box, not yet out for the public. Oh my God! Beautiful images. The second issue is that it is linear. I don't know what the big deal is about chapter search but, I know that some people use if for some reason. Well, as an experiment I put a VHS tape of Toy Story in my player and the DVD version in my DVD player. My wife had the remote for the VHS and I had the remote for the DVD. At the same time we both started searching for various scenes. While she was quickly fast forwarding I had to go to the menu, choose chapters, find the right chapter then go there. Most of the time I beat her by a few seconds but, twice she beat me. The other issue is extras. If they are important to you, then you will have to go with the inferior quality of DVD.
I came to the demo expecting to be underwhelmed. Especially since I hac just completed a week of working with Micheal Mann on a commercial all shot in HDTV and didn't care for the images. Well, instead I walked away overwhelmed and when I see that there will indeed be films available, and not just from the studio catalogs, I will be purchasing one of these machines.

[Pat]

Bob, great report!
I wish I could have been there

Thanks for sharing your D-Theater experience




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[George Bellefontaine]

I would have liked to have been there, too, but I may as well get this out of the way. I just don't agree with this thing called HD tape. I progressed from tape years ago. I will not be happy until dvd goes high definition, and just cannot bring myself to pay $3000 CDN. for that JVC player and $55 for tapes as a stop gap measure. But I don't doubt for a minute the superiority of the DVHS tape picture over dvd, as well as the sound. The real drawback with dvd has always been compression, but there are new things on the way that hopefully will bring dvd into the HD world, and I will be the first one there ready to pony up.




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[Bob]

Sorry to hear it is so expensive up in Canada. It is a mistake to think that it is a step backwards because it is on a medium that is similar to something you used before. You are right, at least at this time, the tapes will cost more than the inferior DVD discs, though the idea will be for them to be available at your rental store.
Also, this isn't a format meant to take over the DVD market. DVDs were meant to replace VHS and were a huge improvement, HVHS is more for the person who is looking for the best available now. A improved DVD style disc may be coming some day but, not in the next few years.
There are still many people that don't see any reason to buy a DVD player when they have VHS, and for them VHS is plenty good enough. If DVD is good enough for you than, of course, why would you buy into something new? Personally, I will if for no other reason than the audio. Can't emphasize enough the improvement there. Oh yeah, and you can record on it, that and the audio make for two giant steps forward over DVD.
By the way did I mention that the audio blows away a DVD, that my jaw dropped, that DVD audio sucks in comparison, that the difference is huge, let's see what other phrases do the mags always use, that I looked over my shoulder and was surprised to find that the sound was coming from a speaker, that even my wife/friend/cousin/non-audiophile neighbor, could hear the difference?

[Markj]

For someone that can’t write reviews you did a great job. Thanks Bob for the info. Do you happen to know if the sound was level matched between the two demos. And how would you compare the sound you heard from DVHS to a DTS theater?

[P-Dub]

Great review Bob.

How was the DVHS hooked up audio wise? If the audio is that much better, I'm assuming it must be using some kind of 5.1 outputs on the player itself, then connecting it to the appropriate pre/pro analog bypass and then amplification. Or is there some proprietary decoding that requires another set of initials in our new receivers or pre/pro's?

Would you characterize the difference in audio as night and day? Or more of a, if you know what you're listening to, you'll notice the difference.

Again, how about the video hookup? Is it just through component or is a proprietary interface necessary?

I've got a bunch more questions, but I'll start with those first.




Paul

There are three kinds of people in this world; those that can count, and those that can't.

[George Bellefontaine]

HDVHS is more for the person who is looking for the best available now.

Exactly, and that's why I went to Laserdisc from tape, and dvd from laserdisc. I just don't want to go back to tape. Now, if the players come down to a couple of hundred dollars, I would certainly go for rental DVHS tapes. But I am not about to start replacing movies I have already replaced twice from tape to LD and then DVD. The titles announced are all titles I have replaced more than once in my collection.
But all this is just my take on things, Bob.

I respect your opinion and would defend to the death your right to have one.

*** edited by Paul to fix quote weirdness, George, was that what you wanted to do?




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[George Bellefontaine]

Geesh, I really screwed up the quote thing. BTW, there is an interesting discussion on WSR's shootout in the HDTV Recorder section at AVS. Seems a lot were not all that impressed with the difference in picture quality, but like Bob, most were impressed with the much improved soundtracks.




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[Bob]

George, you are absolutly right, at the present there are only a very tiny number of titles available. Which is to be expected. Like I said, if all that happens is that the studios release from their catolog then forget about it. But, that is not what is planned. What is hoped for is delivering new titles the same day as VHS and DVD. Remember, that didn't happen overnight with DVD either. I didn't replace LD titles with DVDs, just kept the LDs (but then I think DVD is only marginally better video wise and often inferior audio wise). I would do the same with DVHS, only get new titles.
I read all the threads over at AVS, they don't differ what I said about the difference being only slight in video. But, can I shout it loud enough, THE DVDS WERE BEING PLAYED ON STATE OF THE ART PLAYERS THROUGH A $20,000 VIDEO PROCESSOR, the DVHS was right out of the box and was still better. Not by leaps and bounds, not the difference between a fourth generation copy on VHS vs the best DVD, just better enough to notice but, THE DVDS WHERE PLAYED THROUGH A TWENTY THOUSAND DOLLAR STATE OF THE ART BEST MONEY CAN BUY, YOU DON'T GOT ONE, VIDEO PROCESSOR.
Paul,
To answer your questions. The player was hooked up through a Casablanca ll, no special connection needed for sound or video. The video was component. As to the levels. Let me say that when I first entered the theater I feared that this would be one of those awful demos where you are led to beleive that loudness equals quality. When I heard that U571 was the first film up I groaned. Thank goodness that didn't turn out to be the case. The levels were at a resonable loudness, much less than a movie theater, and probably less than many members use. It wasn't about explosions, it was about dripping water, the sounds of the sub walls breathing, etc. Did they stop between demos and whip out SPL meters and re calibrate? Of course not, just switched from one to another. Widescreen does have some kind of gizmo about the size of a large amp with lots of fun lights that supposedly keeps the speaker levels the same and exact. Can't vouch for it. If there was a difference in levels it was so minimal that it wasn't of any consequence. The difference in audio wasn't anything to do with loudness. It was a difference in clarity, of seperation of sounds. And most important, with the DVHS it sounded real, it had a 3 dimension quality about it. It was most noticable with the foley effects. If you do look at the AVS thread you will notice that many people thought that someone was in the room breathing heavy.
Was the difference in sound subtle, only if you knew what to listen for? No, I wish I could come up with words that could describe how much better the DVHS was. But, so much b.s. is used in mags and forums overstating subtle differences that anything I can come up with would sound like more of the same. I simply have never heard anything so good. You must take into account that I go to the Acadamy at least once a month and watch movies presented by the ASC on probably the best screen in the world, with a perfectly calibrated projector, and as good a sound system that can be put in a theater. If it wasn't so cameramen showing their movies followed by Q&A and the sound people in attendance would be up in arms. The DVHS was that good.

[SiliGoose]

Did they give any explaination as to why the sound was so much better?

I'm assuming it was presented in Dolby Digital? DD has specific levels of compression so maybe the DVHS used less compression than the DVD? There is no such thing as "uncompressed" DD, is there? I would think that an oxymoron.

I don't think a minute difference in compression would yeild such a dramatic difference in sound (the old DTS arguement turned out to be pretty false). However, I can't think of another explaination for this.




-Sili

[George Bellefontaine]

It'll be interesting to see where this tape thing goes. But I'd bet dollars to donuts that the dvd people will really step up their progress toward HD DVD, and if DVHS helps accomplish that, then I welcome it with open arms.




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[Bob]

Sili,
Yes, they did give an explantion for why the sound was better. Now, this is where I wish that one of the other attendees visited this forum. My hearing goes deaf, and my mind goes elswhere when engineering details like bit rates and such start being discussed. Sorry to say that I have no idea what they were talking about, the guys with the pocket protectors (which was probably about one third of the crowd) seemed to be pretty excited and were spewing out numbers and were sitting bolt upright in their chairs with gleeful faces. While that was being discussed I was trading jokes with the guy from Runco, he was only concerned about the video quality and knew some great "do you know why the blond" jokes. I looked over the one page flyer they handed out and there is a lot about the video but, little about the sound. It doesn't say anything about DTS so, I guess it only outputs DD.
What is a shame is that they didn't have a second setup in one of their other rooms. I think that what most of us would really be interested in is a more simple set up like we have at our homes. A DVD player that isn't being upconverted into a rear projection TV and switched back and forth with the DVHS player. Have to hand it to Gary at Widescreen though, you can't accuse him of having an agenda. Think what a shootout for AV receivers would be like if it were put on by the frothing Outlaw fanatics. It would be just the opposite of what Widescreen did. Gary let us see DVD playback at its very best. Better than any of us will ever see in our homes. Then showed us DVHS straight out of the box.
I have to say I am really surprised at some of the comments that were made over at the AVS forum. I don't know how you can just gloss over the fact that the DVD part of the demo was video at a level that few people can afford, and even then it still wasn't as good as the DVHS. I don't know, if I spent the money to buy a $2000 DVD player, and then spent another $20,000 on a scaler and then saw a demo of a $1500 player that had better video, I don't care how slight, I would be pretty upset. Plus, in every forum questions and comments about sound by far dominate and nobody at the demos denies the superiority of the sound we heard.
I think that, like George, many people have it in there minds that tape is inferior and just can't beleive that maybe that belief isn't true. I know that at the demo I went to one guy said that he thought that the DVD was better and gave a couple of reasons. The fellow from Runco, who really wanted the DVHS to be inferior, whispered to me, "What's he talking about? I watch a lot of video and I have never seen anything this good and I sure didn't see what he saw." I think he said something about edge detail and color. What I saw was that the DVD was geener, while the DVHS was more blue, which could be do to different transfers. But, more importantly I could see small details in the DVHS that were simply blocks of color in the DVD. Maybe that was the advantage from being in the front row, although I hated the vibrating moving seats and tried to convince the Runco guy that he would like it so we should switch.

[George Bellefontaine]

Bob,
To correct things, I do not feel that DVHS tape picture quality is inferior, it's the format itself I feel is inferior. I still have many VHS tapes in my collection, and some of the older ones are unplayable due to dropouts, etc.




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[Bob]

George,
Your right, consumer grade VHS tapes don't have much shelf life. On the other hand the one inch tapes used by studios and TV stations don't seem to have that much of a problem. That question was specifically asked of the JVC reps and they claimed that the digital tapes wouldn't have the problems that older VHS tapes have. I wouldn't blame you for not trusting their answer, I am dubious myself. But, this is pobably a medium that will only be around until a better recordable storage medium is available for HD. That, however, is many years from now. I think that most people feel that DVD quality is good enough for now and wouldn't be surprised if the DVHS doesn't pan out. I'm satisfied with the video quality of DVDs and wouldn't change to DVHS for the video only. It was the audio that woke me up and made me want it.

[George Bellefontaine]

Bob,
Yes, audio is one area I wish dvd would improve. And aside from the fact I may sound negative about DVHS, I do feel it may force the dvd folks to get their act together, and that would be a positive thing. Anyway, you werefortunate to be treated to the demo at WSR. I would have given my eye teeth to be there.
Regards,
George




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