HDMI 1.4 and You

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  • Chris D
    Moderator Emeritus
    • Dec 2000
    • 16877

    HDMI 1.4 and You

    So, it's happening... HDMI 1.4 is in the final stages of work, and will likely be released within the month. You can expect to see products start showing up after New Year's, and more prevalent throughout 2010. Here's what you need to know.

    - First, HDMI is trying to move away from using versions like "1.3" or "1.4". Their rationale kind of makes sense, although it makes it even more complicated/involved than it already is. Trying to keep this discussion brief, the problem is that products need hardly anything to call itself "HDMI 1.x compliant". Each version number comes with a list of multiple new features that it includes, but it is up to the manufacturer as to which ones, if any, their product actually supports. Example: HDMI 1.3 included "Deep Color", but Brand X could make a product labeled "HDMI 1.3 compliant" without supporting the Deep Color feature. So instead of version numbers, HDMI is trying to push products to list the exact features it supports. Obviously, this will be more confusion to Joe 6-Pack, even if it's more detailed and accurate.

    - Second, we as people naturally think that if we have version "26" of something, then when version "27" comes out, it's got to be newer, better, and we need it. Not always necessarily the case with HDMI features.

    - In this case, HDMI 1.4 can be summarized as new features that either make current operations simpler, or enable future technologies. But it is not essential for new current technologies. Therefore, new compliant products will be cool, but you don't need to dump your current gear just to get new "HDMI 1.4" stuff.

    New features in the HDMI 1.4 set:

    - 2-WAY ETHERNET OVER HDMI. This will be the "coolest" main feature. HDMI will now be able to carry ethernet data (i.e. internet connection, etc) in addition to current audio/video, with no compromise in quality to anything. Bottom line, this means that your ethernet-enabled device will now only need an HDMI connection from the source, instead of HDMI for A/V, and ethernet Cat "x" cable for data. If your device already has ethernet, this will not enable anything new that your device can't already do, or provide any higher/faster quality, but it will use just 1 cable instead of 2. Not essential, but a simpler setup. (see below under "other things" for one small caveat)

    - RETURN AUDIO CHANNEL. This will enable not only audio and video going from your source (i.e. disc player, receiver) to your display, (i.e. TV) but now you can also stream audio BACK from your display to your source as well, over the same single cable. Consider that if your TV has an onboard ATSC tuner, you can watch TV directly on the display, but previously if you wanted to send the sound back to your receiver for home theater, you had to hook up separate cables for the output. Now, again, it will just be consolidated into one cable, instead of using one HDMI for A/V output, and another cable or two of some sort for input back to the receiver. Only a simpler setup. This will have capabilities up to SPDIF-level. (i.e. up to Dolby Digital or such... can't do Dolby True HD or such)

    - 3D CAPABILITY. This is one of the future technologies. CEDIA 2009 had all sorts of video displays showing 3D capability. But consider, that even if you bought one today, currently no real 3D media exists. Personally, I wonder if this is really going to go anywhere. I wasn't overwhelmed by the 3D demos that I saw. I'd rather view something in pristine 1080p perfect color, than gimmicky 3D. So... this one's nice to have for future tech, but not essential.

    - UP TO "4k2k" RESOLUTION. Another future technology. "4k2k" resolution refers to future resolution capability beyond 1080p, such as 3840x2160 at 24/25/30 Hz, or 4096x2160 at 30 Hz. Will this happen someday? Undoubtedly. But again, no media exists today for this, and there's no global standard for these resolutions, like there is for 720p, 1080i/p.

    - EVEN MORE COLOR CAPABILITY. Without going into details, HDMI 1.4 allows even more expanded display of the color spectrum. This was started in 1.3 with Deep Color. Again, though, to really make this tech happen, you'd have to have both the display and source properly utilize it. Not going to be mainstream, at least for a while.


    Other things HDMI is working on, not really part of the HDMI 1.4 standards:

    - Most important thing, the ONLY thing you'll need to know about upgrading your current HDMI cables, is that your current cables will support ALL new features of HDMI 1.4, *EXCEPT* the ethernet channel. So if you're not going to use ethernet over HDMI, your current cables are fine. Otherwise, you gotta buy new HDMI cables capable of ethernet, too.

    - Micro HDMI. This will be a new plug, about the size of a Micro USB plug, with the same performance as a full HDMI jack. You'll probably start seeing this on things like digital video cameras.

    - Automotive connector w/lock. You'll start seeing HDMI in cars, like mobile video entertainment systems built-in. You can bring your disc player and plug in the video to the car for play on the car displays. Because of car movement/vibrations, these connectors will be more stable.

    - Labeling will change and be standardized for HDMI cables. Soon, (through 2010) you won't see any more "HDMI 1.3" or "1.4" cables, they'll have different word categories. Basically, what you're going to want to buy will be called "High Speed HDMI Cable w/Ethernet".

    Confused yet?
    CHRIS

    Well, we're safe for now. Thank goodness we're in a bowling alley.
    - Pleasantville
  • P-Dub
    Office Moderator
    • Aug 2000
    • 6766

    #2
    Good info.
    Paul

    There are three kinds of people in this world; those that can count, and those that can't.

    Comment

    • JustinGN
      Senior Member
      • May 2009
      • 105

      #3
      Good info, but the Ethernet Channel seems a bit fuzzy still. How do they plan on getting Ethernet into the HDMI Connector in the first place, unless you're looking at either a split cable or using the Processor/AVR as the source ethernet device, and then using its connection over HDMI 1.4 components.

      In other words, has the HDMI group specifically said how they'll get the interwebs from the tubes to the cables?

      Comment

      • George Bellefontaine
        Moderator Emeritus
        • Jan 2001
        • 7637

        #4
        Thanks for taking the time to post that, Chris. Very enlightening.
        My Homepage!

        Comment

        • Chris D
          Moderator Emeritus
          • Dec 2000
          • 16877

          #5
          Justin, that's a good question. The HDMI cable itself will be the same design, a single cable, and the ethernet channel will use channels of the cable that are currently underutilized or not used.

          You're right though--and this is something I didn't think of until after the training class--if all you have is "ethernet HDMI" connected among A/V componenets, all you're doing is setting up a closed network among those components. To get internet data to those networked units, one of those units has to connect to something like a router or DSL/cable modem. Conceptually, it would make sense to have the AVR as the "master unit" that would connect to the internet, and then distribute to the components.

          I just went to the HDMI website. They have good info on HDMI, including these pictures of a setup before and after HDMI 1.4. For whatever reason, they're showing the TV as the master device here:





          CHRIS

          Well, we're safe for now. Thank goodness we're in a bowling alley.
          - Pleasantville

          Comment

          • JustinGN
            Senior Member
            • May 2009
            • 105

            #6
            A good idea for the average joe and some custom installers, though I have a feeling Gigabit Ethernet will still reign as the champion for serious HD streamers or high-end STBs. As for the bridge device, I'd wager TVs will champion the spec first as they did with HDMI 1.3, with High-End AVRs and Processors to follow.

            That said, while I'm a big fan of Gigabit Ethernet, it would be nice not to have a Level 2 Switch in my A/V setup as it stands. If the HDMI spec can indeed pull off this latest feat in full duplex, it could be a real boon for the CI and consumer markets.

            EDIT: By the way, don't the new 4K/2K picture modes require new cables? I seem to remember the original press release specifying four cable types for the consumer market, two with Ethernet and two without, possibly denoting a higher bandwidth cable for the added picture information of a 4K or 2K signal. Let me dig around, see what I can find.

            EDIT 2: Ah, no, I misread the press release from CES. You're right in that only the HEC channel requires a new HDMI cable, unless you use devices with mini or automotive connectors.

            Comment

            • chrispy35
              Senior Member
              • Feb 2004
              • 198

              #7
              Does the spec state if the Ethernet logic should have the ability to stay active even though the main component is turned off.

              i.e. If the TV is the access point to the internet for the other components, you shouldn't need to have the TV on for internet radio in your AVR to work. Conversely, if the AVR is the access point, you shouldn't need to have that turned on in order to browse the web on your TV.

              Chris P.

              Comment

              • Chris D
                Moderator Emeritus
                • Dec 2000
                • 16877

                #8
                Oooh, very good question. No idea!
                CHRIS

                Well, we're safe for now. Thank goodness we're in a bowling alley.
                - Pleasantville

                Comment

                • JustinGN
                  Senior Member
                  • May 2009
                  • 105

                  #9
                  I would guess that, considering the prominent handshake issues with current HDMI, there will be no passive HEC channel for when the components are off. Chances are the HEC channel will only be active when all components in the necessary chain are powered on.

                  Any word on if the HEC is shared between devices (single-lane) or if the central device acts as a Switch or Router (multi-lane)? I know Full Duplex is supposedly supported, but I'm curious if the AVR or Processor sends the same packet information out on all HDMI connectors like a hub, or intelligently like a switch. Otherwise, I have no use for it since I keep multiple devices online at once.

                  Comment

                  • littlesaint
                    Senior Member
                    • Jul 2007
                    • 823

                    #10
                    How packets are handled would be defined by TCP/IP, that is unicasts are unicasts, multicasts are multicasts, and broadcasts are broadcasts. It doesn't appear like they are re-inventing the wheel here, and nor should they, if they want this to integrate correctly with a gateway router to get to the Internet.
                    Santino

                    The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.

                    Comment

                    • JustinGN
                      Senior Member
                      • May 2009
                      • 105

                      #11
                      That's not what I'm asking. I'm asking if the same data will be broadcast over all HDMI connectors simultaneously like a hub, or if the bridging device will act as a Switch and only send the data to the HDMI-equipped device that its destined to.

                      Comment

                      • Chris D
                        Moderator Emeritus
                        • Dec 2000
                        • 16877

                        #12
                        I'm guessing simultaneous. There's no need (yet) to get fancy and complicated and do smart distribution.
                        CHRIS

                        Well, we're safe for now. Thank goodness we're in a bowling alley.
                        - Pleasantville

                        Comment

                        • littlesaint
                          Senior Member
                          • Jul 2007
                          • 823

                          #13
                          Originally posted by JustinGN
                          That's not what I'm asking. I'm asking if the same data will be broadcast over all HDMI connectors simultaneously like a hub, or if the bridging device will act as a Switch and only send the data to the HDMI-equipped device that its destined to.
                          Why would you send traffic to a device it is not destined for? The device on the other end will just drop the frame. Thats why no one uses hubs anymore. They are terribly inefficient.

                          Again, only broadcasts would be broadcast. This is not a new protocol, it's Ethernet running inside HDMI. All of the normal network rules still apply just as if you had everything connecting using regular network gear.
                          Santino

                          The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.

                          Comment

                          • chrispy35
                            Senior Member
                            • Feb 2004
                            • 198

                            #14
                            The way I read the OP is that the Ethernet channel would be dedicated (hence the need for new Ethernet-capable HDMI cables) and so I don't see that there's a need for any handshaking etc. beyond what is used for any old CAT5 connection. Did I miss something?

                            Chris P.

                            Comment

                            • Chris D
                              Moderator Emeritus
                              • Dec 2000
                              • 16877

                              #15
                              Well, the HDMI instructor did specifically state when I asked the question, that the ethernet channel does not add any NEW functionality that an ethernet connected device already has. Beyond that, getting into specific design and operation, I'd have to refer you to www.hdmi.org. Some good reading there.
                              CHRIS

                              Well, we're safe for now. Thank goodness we're in a bowling alley.
                              - Pleasantville

                              Comment

                              • Azeke
                                Super Senior Member
                                • Mar 2003
                                • 2123

                                #16
                                Digitial interfacing, fascinating. Thanks for the update Chris.

                                Peace and blessings,

                                Azeke

                                Comment

                                • JustinGN
                                  Senior Member
                                  • May 2009
                                  • 105

                                  #17
                                  Nnng. Chris answered my question the best, but I still think people are getting confused. Yes, I know the HDMI HEC channel is dedicated, I know that. What I am asking is, does it mention anywhere in the standard what the bridge device acts as, or is it up to the manufacturer?

                                  In other words, is the bridging device, aka, the device where it converts the Ethernet Cable network into an HEC network, a dumb hub or a basic switch. This has nothing to do with TCP/IP, the OSI Model, or "broadcasts", or anything else. I just want to know if that bridging device is a Hub or a Switch in reference to the HEC channel on the HDMI side of things.

                                  I highly doubt the HDMI group would have the foresight to make it a switch, but I was wondering of Chris knew.

                                  Comment

                                  • littlesaint
                                    Senior Member
                                    • Jul 2007
                                    • 823

                                    #18
                                    An Ethernet device operating at 100mbps, full-duplex (the HDMI 1.4 spec) by definition and function has to be a switch. If it does anything otherwise, it is no longer Ethernet.
                                    Santino

                                    The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.

                                    Comment

                                    • Chris D
                                      Moderator Emeritus
                                      • Dec 2000
                                      • 16877

                                      #19
                                      And the HDMI 1.4 spec is adding another feature for 3D! News release today:



                                      HDMI Spec to Change, Again

                                      December 30, 2009



                                      In response to recent input from the industry, HDMI Licensing LLC will meet in late January 2010 to add an additional 3D format (tentatively named “Top/Bottom”) to the HDMI specification, supporting the use of this format over HDMI.

                                      The agent responsible for licensing the High-Definition Multimedia Interface (HDMI) specification has committed to resolving this issue in January 2010 and publishing a document soon thereafter.

                                      Legacy set-top boxes (those that are already deployed in the market) are required to comply with the HDMI Specification Version 1.4 requirements for 3D functionality even if only implementing one or more of the 3D formats in Appendix H of the specification.

                                      To meet the needs of the market, the HDMI founders have decided to allow legacy set-top boxes to use formats contained in Appendix H without having to implement the HDMI specification’s mandatory 3D formats, provided that they fully comply with the signaling protocol defined in Appendix H. This will continue to be in effect and will be reevaluated once a mandatory 3D broadcast format is defined.

                                      However, legacy set-top boxes that do not support the mandatory 3D formats may not claim 3D functionality as defined by the updated HDMI Adopted Trademark and Logo Usage Guidelines.

                                      “As a leading global standard for HD connectivity, the HDMI Consortium takes the market’s needs very seriously,” HDMI Licensing LLC president Steve Venuti said. “3D is a nascent market and thus continues to evolve quickly. We have taken input from leading industry associations and this announcement reflects the HDMI founders’ commitment to continuously and proactively set the foundation for innovations that will deliver the next generation of content. The addition of the new format will secure the application of 3D for broadcasting, in addition to the existing applications for Blu-ray and gaming.”

                                      For more information about the HDMI specification, visit http://www.hdmi.org
                                      CHRIS

                                      Well, we're safe for now. Thank goodness we're in a bowling alley.
                                      - Pleasantville

                                      Comment

                                      • 1oldguy
                                        Senior Member
                                        • Dec 2008
                                        • 459

                                        #20
                                        Wondering if it's even worth bothering to get a pre at the moment or wait since 1.4 is on the horizon?My T.V and Blue ray player are both 1.3 so not sure what would be best.But now and forgo a pre with 1.4 as I won't buy another pre for a good few years or wait?
                                        A Man should never Gamble more than he can stand to loose.

                                        Comment

                                        • littlesaint
                                          Senior Member
                                          • Jul 2007
                                          • 823

                                          #21
                                          HDMI 1.3 can support Blu-ray 3D presentations up to 1080i with the right firmware. For 1080p, you need more bandwidth, and HDMI 1.4. Of course you also need a 3D capable display that can show two 1080p frames near simultaneously, and a 3D-capable media player or setup box, all of which are still a way off. This memo touches on the current mess of 3D specs out there and how the HDMI forum is dealing with them.
                                          Santino

                                          The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.

                                          Comment

                                          • Hdale85
                                            Moderator Emeritus
                                            • Jan 2006
                                            • 16073

                                            #22
                                            Aren't some of the newer Samsung's the first to support the new 3D stuff? Or will after a firmware update when everything is ready I suppose.

                                            Comment

                                            • aarsoe
                                              Senior Member
                                              • May 2004
                                              • 795

                                              #23
                                              My understanding is that 1.4 does not give you more bandwidth - just higher resolution but fewer frames.
                                              Take a look at this:

                                              Comment

                                              • aarsoe
                                                Senior Member
                                                • May 2004
                                                • 795

                                                #24
                                                please also see this one:
                                                Jeff Boccaccio, president of DPL Labs tells us everything we need to know about HDMI v1.4. DPL Labs are an independant body who test HDMI cables to make sure...

                                                Comment

                                                • JustinGN
                                                  Senior Member
                                                  • May 2009
                                                  • 105

                                                  #25
                                                  Let me clear up a misconception. The only reason HDMI 1.3 players will pass two 1080i pictures for 3D is NOT due to bandwidth restrictions, but (more than likely) programming issues with the chips for the HDMI output or manufacturer laziness. Both HDMI 1.3 and 1.4 have the same maximum bandwidth of 10.2Gbps. Nothing has been done between specs to up that bandwidth. In fact, video bandwidth, audio bandwidth, maximum bandwidth, and signal bandwidth have ALL remained the same. It's pure software/firmware that enables the new features, nothing more, nothing less.

                                                  At least Sony has the sense to upgrade the PS3 to support 3D over HDMI 1.3, though I was bummed to hear the Oppo couldn't handle it. Oh well.

                                                  Comment

                                                  • littlesaint
                                                    Senior Member
                                                    • Jul 2007
                                                    • 823

                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by JustinGN
                                                    Let me clear up a misconception. The only reason HDMI 1.3 players will pass two 1080i pictures for 3D is NOT due to bandwidth restrictions, but (more than likely) programming issues with the chips for the HDMI output or manufacturer laziness. Both HDMI 1.3 and 1.4 have the same maximum bandwidth of 10.2Gbps. Nothing has been done between specs to up that bandwidth. In fact, video bandwidth, audio bandwidth, maximum bandwidth, and signal bandwidth have ALL remained the same. It's pure software/firmware that enables the new features, nothing more, nothing less.

                                                    At least Sony has the sense to upgrade the PS3 to support 3D over HDMI 1.3, though I was bummed to hear the Oppo couldn't handle it. Oh well.
                                                    You're right. I keep reading reviews stating bandwidth as the issue, but the specs are the same in that regard. It does seem though that HDMI 1.3 is only capable of 1080i 3D, so I wonder if it is a signal issue. 1080i 3D would "fit" into a normal 60Hz signal, while 1080p 3D would require at least 120Hz which, I believe, is not supported by HDMI 1.3.
                                                    Santino

                                                    The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.

                                                    Comment

                                                    • JustinGN
                                                      Senior Member
                                                      • May 2009
                                                      • 105

                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by littlesaint
                                                      You're right. I keep reading reviews stating bandwidth as the issue, but the specs are the same in that regard. It does seem though that HDMI 1.3 is only capable of 1080i 3D, so I wonder if it is a signal issue. 1080i 3D would "fit" into a normal 60Hz signal, while 1080p 3D would require at least 120Hz which, I believe, is not supported by HDMI 1.3.
                                                      Nope! HDMI 1.3 supports 120Hz picture formats if memory serves. In fact, the 4K support achieved by HDMI 1.4 is only by reducing the framerate to 24fps. So bandwidth is definitely not the issue.

                                                      Still, it's sequential 3D, and any TV worth its salt can properly deinterlace 1080i to 1080p with no loss. In the end, while not optimal, I see no real problem here.

                                                      Comment

                                                      • littlesaint
                                                        Senior Member
                                                        • Jul 2007
                                                        • 823

                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by JustinGN
                                                        Nope! HDMI 1.3 supports 120Hz picture formats if memory serves. In fact, the 4K support achieved by HDMI 1.4 is only by reducing the framerate to 24fps. So bandwidth is definitely not the issue.

                                                        Still, it's sequential 3D, and any TV worth its salt can properly deinterlace 1080i to 1080p with no loss. In the end, while not optimal, I see no real problem here.
                                                        It's a bit more complicated than that. There's a difference between having the bandwidth to carry a certain signal, and actually being able to carry the signal. All bandwidth defines is the size of the pipe. You still have to define the data being carried within the pipe and this is where HDMI 1.3 has limitations with regard to 3D.
                                                        Santino

                                                        The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.

                                                        Comment

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