HT room what is considered small, big, etc.?

[2channellover]

Still in the planning stages, but the room in my basement designated for HT is 17'd x 21'w x 10' (ceiling).

The room is a basically a rectangle shape and I plan on putting a projector screen on the 21' wall to ensure plenty of room for 4 theater chairs side by side. Right now I like the 106 to 110" screen size.

Questions, and I understand these are opinions and that's what I'm looking for.

#1 I have 17' of depth, but I didn't want the chairs on the back wall (want recliners) so I'm planning for about 14' from the screen...too close?

#2 Power...I'm looking at the RMB-1085, to run the 5 channels, and add a 2-channel if I go to 7.1 - enough power to fill this room?

#3 5.1, 6.1, or 7.1, I'll be able to put rears on the back wall, but is the room too small for 7.1? Would 5.1 be enough?, Does 6.1 make sense?

#4 Initially I thought I was settled on front speakers (B&W 803s/htm3s), but the cost of the projector is biting deeper into the budget. Now I'm thinking about the Paradigm Monitor series 11, cc390. Considerably less money, but am I giving up too much in sound quality? Heard them both, but never side by side.

#5 Finally I have a PS1200 sub now. Is that enough for great bass in a room this size? Do I need a second sub?

I know it's a lot, but thanks for your reply.

Tony

[Nick M]

1. Viewing distance should be right around twice the diagonal measurement of your screen (for standard 16x9). This is a median standard. So for a 106" screen you will want your eyes 212" or ~17' away. When I used a projector setup, I preferred something a little closer, so depending on tastes the 106" would be a great choice (for me at least).

2. Power requirements also depend on the speakers you choose, but if you stick with reasonably efficient bookshelf type units you should be okay with 100Wx5.

3. With your room size and budget concerns, I would go with a higher quality 5.1 rather than a crammed and relatively mediocre 6.1/7.1.

4. Since you plan on using subwoofers, I wouldn't be concerned about having tower speakers all around you. Go for some high quality monitors such as the Paradigm Studio 20's/40's. Get two pairs, one set for your mains, and one set for your surrounds (I wouldn't use di/bipoles given how close your surrounds will be to the rear wall). Center channel is optional. Most people harp that it's essential, but center channels only exist because of seating arrangements in a real theater where the stereo effect is lost along the walls and an additional speaker is needed to lock the dialog. Most modern processors have an option for 4.1 that simply splits the center channel into the front mains. I think it sounds better - especially if you plan on having your center channel more than a foot above or below your mains. If you must have a center, you could go with a Studio CC-590.

5. Having spent thousands on subwoofers, I've become quite finicky in this domain. I expect my subs to keep up as I turn the volume up without losing any control or decibels. Most people I know buy the biggest sub they can and then crank it. I've found that multiple subs turned down decreases distortion and increases your system's SPL capabilities over the entire frequency range. To me, great home theater is defined by a big razor-sharp image and bass quality - both of these parameters will make up for a lot of lacking in other areas. The worst theaters I've been to were the ones with the tiny screen at the front of the room, or the forced squirrel-fart when lightning flashes and a thunderclap is supposed to roll through my core. You won't get anywhere in the ballpark of reference with that single sub, but it's somewhere to start. More subs and equalization are the next step (along with room treatments).

Hope these answers spark some thought.

[2channellover]

They have Nick...thanks. This room will not get daily use more than likely, but I do want it to be a good experience when we do use it. My initial budget was $15k including room treatments. I probably need to stick with this and add on from there later.

1. I can put the screen on the 17' wall and push the seats further away, but a 17' wide room is a little tight for 4 theater chairs across. I'll do some mock layouts and play around with it. (FWIW - the projector company will charge the same price for the 106 or 110" screen)

2. The only small speaker I've heard recently are the 805s, coupled w/ htm4s/asw825 and I did like the setup. Assuming you've heard both, IYO, how would the Studio 20/40 compare? Secondly, is the Studio series much improved over the Monitor series IYO? In either case I had planned to use my M804 as rears.

3./4. I'll check into this 4.1, to see how it sounds, and will look into the cc590.

5. I really like the large screen for that "at the theater feel", and I share your feeling for the picture quality, and "feel" of the bass. I'll put a second sub into the budget.

[Nick M]

I think you should keep the layout as you planned. A lot of people would choose to go the opposite way with two rows of seats, but I prefer the screen closer than most. While I never sit in the front at the theater, I also never sit in the back, and for quality theaters this provides a ratio of less than 2 : 1 which is right in the sweet spot of what you would have with your chairs a couple feet in from the rear wall.

If you want to use your set of Matrix B&W's, I would check out audiogon/videogon and find a pair of good-used Matrix 805's. Put your M804's up front, and use the M805's as surrounds. Another option would be to sell the M804's and use the proceeds towards another pair of speakers. If you like your B&W's and the setup you heard with N805's as mains, stick with B&Ws. I prefer Paradigms, but that is a matter of taste. Get two pairs of 705's or N805's and call it a day. Listen to them side by side. If you don't notice much between 'em, get the 705's.

Try going 4.1, you can always throw in a center channel later. Be wary of salespeople though - they want to sell you that center channel. They might make it sound like dirt to scratch another couple grand from your budget. If you do buy a center, make sure it's also a B&W, and matched closely to your mains/surrounds.

I would definitely advise another sub, but unless you're planning on doing some DIY work, this will tag on a good chunk of labor to set up properly. Be careful though - this is one area where "discernible effects" are very real. Going from a single overworked sub that barks and booms at you to a setup where thunder feels real and pipe organs belch true sub-sonics can run you close to a stack of high society in a room your size - and once you get a taste of it, it's hard to stop. It's the difference between the car next to you in traffic with the rattling windows and that primal adrenaline-inducing experience you have when (if you've ever experienced one) a building is demo'd. It's the "religious" experience you get from being hit by 10Hz frequencies in a church with a good pipe organ.

Anyhoo, good luck with the setup! :T

[2channellover]

Thanks again Nick,

Layout - I went by the theater seat store and got some more measurements. I'm not interested in creating a platform to do two rows, and staggering won't look right IMO. In a slight arc pattern four chairs (2 arms on each) can work on the 17' wall, but it doesn't leave much walking space if the seats are centered to the screen wall. Definitely the screen should go on the wider wall.

Speakers - as my db name implies, I'm a 2-channel guy, and when I bought the M804 ('97 or '98 I think) they were the value spkr in the B&W line. Much more refined sound for my music taste than the M803 back then. (IMO the 803s was the most improved spkr in their line from the Matrix models). As this relates to the HT room I was budgeting about $4k max for spkrs...less would be ideal. I don't have the luxury of maintaining a separate 2-channel listening room so this HT space would serve both purposes.

So...with that said. That's the main reason I haven't really listened to many smaller spkrs. Ideally I want a full range spkr for 2-channel w/o using a sub. I've considered;

- as you mentioned selling m804 and applying the proceeds towards new spkrs. I see people trying to sell them for $900-$1000, but realistically, I'm thinking I could get maybe $600-$800. That's not appealing to me which is why I rather keep them even as rears.

- put m804 up front and add a htm4s as a ctr, and add a pr of 805s as rear. ($3800 for this option)

- for considerably less $ (roughly $2k) I can go with monitor 11/cc390, the 11s sound a lot like my m804 but more on the low end, and the ctr sounds better than the htm4s.

- Studio 60/100, I've got my reference source material, so I'm going out this weekend and listen to both of these as well as the cc590/cc690.

- CC, gotcha on the 4.1 demo.

Subs - what your thoughts on the dsp series 3100/3200?

[Nick M]

Again, I would put the screen on the long wall as well. You should try tracing out the various screen sizes on your wall to get an idea of what they will be like. Even though most would consider it big, I would go 106-110" too. I mean, isn't that the idea? :lol:

You might consider the B&W 705 bookshelves as surrounds, and then an HTM7 as a center. Or two pairs of the 705s ($1500/pr).

I would avoid mixing Paradigm and B&W speakers however. While every speaker has it's own characteristics, Paradigms tend to be a bit more crisp on the high end than B&W's (which sometimes sound a bit too soft for me). I like how steel string guitars, cymbals, and horns sound on Paradigms (I own a pair of Signature S4's). I haven't heard the new monitors, so I can't comment on those.

Don't be afraid to use subs with two-channel either. While this is a hotly debated topic, I'm someone who prefers monitors and subs for two-channel (quality subs mind you). And speaking of which...

I'm actually not a big fan of Paradigm's subs. I think they're overpriced for what you get. I've listened to their "best" stuff (seismic series and servo units) and (to me anyways) neither are worth the price they command.

For maximum bang/buck, I've owned some subs from SVS and recommend them. I've also heard some HSU subs, and recommend those as well. Outlaw audio also sells HSU designed subs under their label.

http://www.svsound.com

http://www.outlawaudio.com

My favorite subs are the Velodyne Digital Drives, but they are quite expensive (albeit deservedly so). Velodyne does sell their EQ technology as a separate package that you can purchase, and it's something to keep in mind down the road.

Stripped down, I think the most important things to consider are a nice projector and a couple subs that aren't going to run home when the PIXAR films start spinning.

[2channellover]

Speakers - My mistake if I posted that, no intent to mix brands across the front. Looks like I'll have enough time Fri to demo Paradigm, and possibly Sat. for B&W. One note on the 700 series - maybe the 705 will be different, but I've heard the 703 and I'd just soon put the m804 with the htm4s across the front. I didn't hear any appreciable difference.

Subs - I'll heed your advice and look for a local dealer for SVS & Outlawaudio and listen to them.

Stripped down - I agree and I actually started with projector 1st. Unless convinced otherwise, I think I've found the best 1080p projector for the money - Optoma HD8000LV.

In either case, 1st things 1st I guess...getting the room/basement prepped. Hopefully electrical, HVAC , and insulation/drywall in the next 30 days. I'm going with blown in insulation (2nd best sound insulator to ultra expensive foam) even on the interior walls.
It won't be a totally dead room, but it'll be close.

[2channellover]

Nick,

What are your thoughts on Outlawaudio pre/pro and amps? Right now I'm looking at the RMB-1085/1068 combo. As norm with such labels limited distribution makes msrp more viable.

[Nick M]

I owned one of Outlaw's first pre/pros - the 950. It was a great unit.
If you buy your amp and/or pre/pro from Outlaw make sure you wait until the new 997 is released which will have HDMI switching.

The Rotel 1068 is really outdated. No HDMI switching, none of the newer audio formats... a great unit in it's time, but it's no longer in it's time.

I use to have the Rotel RMB-1075, and currently use the RMB-1080. Both are great amps.

If this is going to primarily be used for home theater, you might consider a higher-end receiver from Yamaha. It will save you close to $1000 that you could put towards other items that would really have more of an impact. This is especially true if you choose to go with new bookshelves (and this perhaps might free up enough cash for you to do so). I've owned a few receivers and have listened to dozens of others. A local Hi-Fi dealer actually carries Yamaha receivers, and I mistook one for an ARCAM stack while listening to some Paradigms a couple years ago. Yamaha makes some quality stuff once you get up around $1000. It also makes your setup easy and clean. I've been recommending the Yamaha RX-V1900 to friends and family. Given that you have a $15k budget for everything this is an option you might want to consider.

[2channellover]

In this economy, it's dangerous to have TWO vices. Cut back a little yes, but I won't give up golf (vice #1) for this HT, so my wife will make sure I stay within the budget :>)!

I don't have to have top shelf obviously, but I don't want to compromise to the point I'm replacing stuff in the a year or two.

The HD projector/screen offers great performance IMO for the money - $3800. I saw systems for $6k that didn't look much better.

Pre/pro/amp/BD player - $3500. I'm best served to make the HT double as my 2-channel listening room. It's in the basement, volume level won't bother my wife. I won't dismiss the Yamaha, but I'm intrigued by Outlaw's pre/pro pricing and reviews I've seen.

Theater seats - $2000. There are several places trying to get rid of inventory, so I'm sure I'll find a nice set at that price.

Speakers - I can really save some money here initially because I really only need/want a CC. I've got a pr of Linn Index book shelf (old but still sound good) I can use for rears, and add the B&W htm4s to go with my m804. Then I can use some of that to invest in a really nice sub or two.

That gets me up and running for around $12-13k, and when funds allow I can upgrade the speakers.

[Nick M]

You might want to check out visualapex.com for projectors. I've bought two from them. If you like DLP over LCD, I think they have the Optoma HD806 which has 2000 lumens of output, 8000 : 1 CR, and of course it's 1080p. It's $1950.

Also, you might check out Carada screens - who I've bought a screen from, and they make good stuff. The Criterion series frames are amazing, and the materials are great. I think a 110" unit goes for around $750. They have an advertisement at the top of the screen.

[Paul H]

Pre/pro/amp/BD player - $3500. I'm best served to make the HT double as my 2-channel listening room. It's in the basement, volume level won't bother my wife. I won't dismiss the Yamaha, but I'm intrigued by Outlaw's pre/pro pricing and reviews I've seen.

I have a Yamaha 3300, their 2nd-best receiver 5-6 years ago. I'm very happy with it and have only good things to say about Yamaha's upper end receivers. Note I said upper end - there's a big range in pricing and quality in their lineup.

I also own a more recent Outlaw system - 990 pre-pro, 7700 and 7900 amplifiers. The reviews are right - very high quality at a reasonable price. Again no complaints with my Yamaha but I find the Outlaw system is that little bit more immersive, dialogues clearer.

In your situation if it was between a receiver and separates I'd go with the Outlaw separates.

Paul

[wettou]

As a starter system I would forget the brands and get Emotiva good quality, 30 days MBG and a lot less expensive :T

[2channellover]

Nick - the Optoma HD8000LV is one unit I demoed and like the best for the money. Local dealer prices this one @ $2800 and the Dragon Fly screen, for $800. They carry Carada screens as well. The HD806 wasn't mentioned...I'll ask about both of these the next time I'm down there.

Paul - Thanks for the reply, and feedback on Outlaw.

Wettou - Thanks for your reply as well. This does seem like a viable option as well. Heck, Franklin TN only about 3 hrs drive from me. Although the pre/pro will likely be 7.1 processor, I've pretty much decided to buy 5 ch amp. and add a 2ch if needed later. I know the MMC-1 is being replaced, and the 997 is coming out, but would you compare the performance of the MMC-1/xpa5 to Outlaw's 990/7500 combo? I know the 990 offers XLR outputs.

I applaud those who worked to put this db together...in a little over a week I've learned more about HT and money saving quality products than I would in a month of sundays driving around to dealers that basically (and understandably) try to sell what they carry. Where possible I'll support the advertisers on this site.