Loudspeakers + Sub for Built-in

[jsw]

I am having a builtin made for my family room. It will be 9 feet wide, 2 feet deep and 8 feet high. I would like to get some 5+1 speakers sized so that the front center, sides, and subwoofer can be concealed in the built-in. The rear speakers will be on bookshelves.

Any suggestions for speakers that would fit? It seems like the subwoofer would be a problem.

I have seen small powered subs like Sunfire, but wonder if it will take too much power for my room. I have ony one 20 amp circuit that needs to power the AV receiver, the subwoofer, hdtv, amp for whole house audio, and source like vcr, dvd player, cd player etc.

My rough guess is to spend $ 2,000, but I am open to suggestions.

Thanks.

[Shane Martin]

If you are going built in for a sub either go with an IB(isobaric subwoofer that you Do It Yourself) or an In wall sub(which aren't very good). Putting a sub in a hidden place will not produce good results.

[aud19]

If you are going built in for a sub either go with an IB(isobaric subwoofer that you Do It Yourself) or an In wall sub(which aren't very good). Putting a sub in a hidden place will not produce good results.

What he said

As for the speakers there are plenty of in-wall speakers from just about every manufacturer at various price points. If you're building speakers in to anything (walls, cabinets etc) use a speaker that's designed for it I also wouldn't put speakers in a bookshelf. This has the same effect as cupping your hands around your mouth. Not exactly what you want for a diffuse surround field

So you have in-wall speakers, no what to do for a sub... My suggestion find one you actually like the looks of to put in the room. Heck if you buy two you might even be able to disguise them as end tables :B Positioning of them for in room bass response in that case could be a bit of a challenge however. I tell you though, I wouldn't mind a couple of these "end tables" :P

[jsw]

My thought was to have to have a cloth grill over where the subwoofer would be.

I understand your suggestion to use a free-standing subwoofer, but my wife will not go for it. SImilarly for free-standing speakers.

I would love to build a subwoofer. I have a lot of books like the speaker design cookbook, but I just do not have the time, so I need to buy something.

Is there any sort of in-wall type that would give decent performance? I saw a Polk one that is deeper than just stud depth. Does anyone have any recommendations for one?

I have seen some pictures of custom cabinets with speaker grills, but no mention about the speakers used.

Thanks

[Shane Martin]

It depends on what you call "decent performance". IMHO, NO.

Putting a sub in a cabinet is asking for crap performance. Your wife must compromise. I bet she would if you talked to her and reasoned with her.

[aud19]

It depends on what you call "decent performance". IMHO, NO.

Putting a sub in a cabinet is asking for crap performance. Your wife must compromise. I bet she would if you talked to her and reasoned with her.

And showed her some pretty subs that have furniture grade finishes like that SVS. If it looks like furniture, not stereo equipment she may (or may have to) compromise

[gd]

Putting a sub in a cabinet is asking for crap performance.

Absolutely... I know others will give me a good argument, but I'd add any in-walls to that description... especially if you listen to music (for movies you can get away with them if you're forced to, I guess -- but not the sub!).

There may be sophisticated in-wall subs and systems that I'm not familiar with (James Loudspeakers comes to mind -- $$$$$), but they're pricy or problematic... sadly, as it stands right now, a preference choice usually has to be made -- home decor or sound performance.

Would you and the wife consider on-walls?... some have some style to them... (don't have a specific recommendation).

When I help friends install their HTs, I start off with great enthusiasm until I'm directed to hide everything... they seem happy, but I just wind up glum, trying to make the most of subpar sonics.

The most dreaded phrase to any critical listener is "Entertainment Center"... that's where speakers go to die.

[jsw]

We would not consider on-walls. We do not want a separate subwoofer in the room. It is either a built-in subwoofer, subwoofer hidden in the cabinet, or we will end up with just some bookshelf speakers and no subwoofer.

Why would having the subwoofer in the bottom of a cabinet be so bad? If I find one that is side-firing, have a front panel to the cabinet made with an opening just the size of the subwoofer and butt it up to the grill then there should not be any extra weird diffraction at the front. Many manufacturers seem to suggest putting the subwoofer in the corner anyhow. In the case of one in a builtin, it would be close to the junction of the floor and the front of the builtin, so there would be some gain due to the in-phase reflection off the front of the builtin and the floor.

Thanks.

[Shane Martin]

The problems are:

1. The place there may not and likely will not be the best place for your sub. You are basically deciding where to place the sub when the sub interacts completely different in any given location. For instance in my room on the right side I have a huge -15 db null so I'm missing out on tons of bass. My front left corner is where it's best. Obviously you are not going to design the room around best placement so that's the big problem.

2. Resonation. Cabinets like that resonate when deep bass hits it therefore causing issue.

In wall subs stink. I have yet to hear one that does a .1 channel justice. A cheap HSu would take it to the cleaners for deep bass. The alternative to this is an IB. If you can't build one, why not see if you can get someone to build one for you? They are the ultimate in WAF.

Most rooms are built on how the sound not how they look at the first priority. It seems your theater is exactly the opposite. I think some compromise is in order because you will enjoy it more that way with a proper sub in a proper spot. There are plenty of subs that look great and aren't too big that I'm sure your wife won't object to.

[ekkoville]

I have built a cabinet that was to house my sub so as to conceal it. I can tell you first hand that the performance is extremely eratic. The upper bass is so boomy that it hurt my ears, it was unmanagable. The lower end was OK, but still too hard to control. The cabinet had a terrible effect on the quality of LFE from any source or material. My sub is a Rel, known for tight, musical bass and it became some HTIB sub inside the cabinet.

[aud19]

So there you have it. You can put everyting in wall, in cabinet and sitting inside a bookshelf but it will sound mediocre at best and miserable in the worst case and likely a giant waste of time and money. Now it's up to you and your wife on what to do

My suggestion, let her read this thread and then try to search out alternatives that you both actually LIKE the looks of the equipment IN the room.

There's a lot of companies that make very modern looking contemprary styled components for example. One of my favourites is the Vienna Acoustics on walls.

This is the Webern:

[ekkoville]

I have seen those as well Jason at Magnolia HT in a local BB and they sounded very good. There is also a thread started here on a DIY possibility of a Modula MTM for an inwall install without the BSC. John was going to look at it when he had time. If DIY is an option, maybe that will work.

[Shane Martin]

If you want to consider in walls then consider Triads. They make VERY GOOD if not great speakers that I could live with if I had to.

Although their subs are lackluster, I've heard great things about the Def Tech Mythos stuff.

Sub wise you are going to have to compromise or DIY I'm afraid. There is no free lunch with bass.

[ekkoville]

Shane, have heard the triads? It is tough to find a dealer here I think, but if you have heard them and liked them, I'd like to dig a little deeper to find someplace to audition.

[gottavtr]

You should definatly go with an Infinite Baffle if at all possible. Does the room back up to a unfinished part of the basement? Or is there an attic above you? Can you afford $300 for the woofers and maybe that much more for an amp. The extra materials would only cost like $40. Visit: http://ibsubwoofers.proboards51.com/index.cgi
This will take no room in your finished part of the room, just a grill. They produce amazing bass, very detailed and loooooooooow. You must make sure that if you put in a wall to an adjoining room then you should have it fairly far from the doorway. Half of the wavelength I think. Anyway jump on that website. I suggest a pair of the Audio Engineering 15's. Those guys cream over the value of these subs. Have fun!!!

[Shane Martin]

Ekko,
I've heard them here in town a couple of times. The In Wall Gold and Platinum series to be exact. Very smooth and detailed w/o being harsh. Not the worlds best music speaker but none of the in walls I've heard are but nevertheless the best in wall I've heard yet.

The sub was a dissapointment but it was likely setup wrong. I've heard way too many good things about it to be that dissapointed. We played Saving Private Ryan in DTS and the bass was non-existent.

[Azeke]

I've heard that these subs work pretty well in a cabinet, if you willing to pay the money (Solitaire 10 & 12).

In Wall SW

I haven't tried them personally (I do own a Sunfire Sub), but I know installers that have. See if you can take one of them for a test drive. The mileage may vary of course.

Peace and blessings,

Azeke