Setup suggestions

[ajpoe]

I had a disappointing experience last night watching a movie. It was Hellboy and it didn't sound as good as I hoped or have experience with other movies. If a movie sounds great, it somewhat makes up for it not being such a great movie.

What I'd like to do here is list all my equipment and see how you guys would configure it vs. how I already have it done. The reason is that I've noticed what I think is a difference in how some movies are encoded using the LFE and I, like all of you, want to get the most out of my system for all movies (and HD television viewing).

I have a 1068 and 1075 combo. Paradigm Studio 60s for fronts, CC-470 center and ADP-470s for surrounds. I have 4 powered subs but do not run them off the sub preout. Each sub is sitting next to and blended into each of my FL, FR, SL and SR channels and the center is crossed over at 80z since there is no sub running with it. It's pretty cool for having absolutely no localization and just full range channels. I have a TST mounted in my couch and is the only thing running off the sub preout. The LFE channel is being run full range since the TST is tactile up to 800 hz. I don't have any issues of music or voices coming up through the couch this way. Since everything is running full range, I have no real bass management, except for the center below 80 hz being sent to the fronts.

The issue I had with Hellboy is that it seems as though the main channels were neglected somewhat when it came to the lower end. I expected more bass from my subs and the TST to kick in on effects as usual. Chronicles of Riddick was absolutely amazing in this same setup. In fact, I don't think I've noticed this in any other movies but it got me thinking. I guess what I want to know is if any of you (with my same equipment) would make changes to how I have things set up to get more out of it or utilize it better?

My concern is with just the TST on the .1 channel, am missing a lot by doing this? Here are some options I've been kicking around:

1. Ditching the TST and turning off the sub channel so all bass from the LFE is sent to all 4 of my subs. I could also have the TST run off the Front channels if I really wanted to keep it. (I'm thinking about attaching it to my deck to create an outdoor speaker, but that's another story)
2. I am running a Polk PSW650 in my bedroom with some satelites. I could put the Polk on the LFE channel with the TST, not changing anything else. But then I lose my bass in my bedroom which I kind of like.
3. Leave all 4 subs positioned next to my main speakers but run them off the LFE with the TST and cross each speaker off in the 1068. May be at 60 hz for the Studio 60s and 80 hz for everything else. The problem with this is it will affect my 2 channel setup I think. I run 2 channel music in bypass mode since my subs are basically blended in with each speaker to make 1 full range speaker and the sub preout doesn't function in bypass mode.
4. Leave everything alone and accept the fact that some tracks just aren't going to sound great.
5. Any suggestions that you might have.

Well, there you have it. I am open to about anything given my existing equipment. I don't want to worry about having to go buy anything new unless we're talking something minimal. What do you guys think?

[ajpoe]

Well, it doesn't appear that anyone had any suggestions so I went ahead and tried a few scenarios. I think I've settled on option #1. I cannot believe what a HUGE difference turning off the LFE in the processor made. Re-routing the LFE to all 4 subs is amazing! I had no idea what I was missing.

I had a big misunderstanding of exactly what the LFE channel was. I always thought it was just reinforcement of the main channels combined into one channel for a .1 sub in setups that didn't run full range. I also thought that since I had the main channels running full range that they would have all the same bass information in them and it wouldn't really matter whether I had the LFE on or not... that's why I just stuck the TST on it. Boy, was I wrong! (I know, I'm retarded... I'll be the first to say it.)

[PewterTA]

I would think that the 1075 would be suffering from trying to reproduce all that low frequency information....

To me you'd still get better sound with all the speakers set to small, then use 2 or 4 of the subwoofers off the LFE channel. If they are set up right and are "good" subwoofers, you can't locate them anyways...

I just don't think the clarity of the sound would be there (which is why they created the subwoofer channel to begin with) with the stress that is put on your amp to reproduce that sound. This is why they do the LFE as a pre-out and not have the "amp" internal to any of the units (for receivers). Let the amp on the sub, drive the sub.

If you turn all your speakers to small and hook just ONE (or if you have a Y, two) of the subs up, and remove all the other subs from the High-pass setup you currently have, I bet your sound quality/clarity/imaging will increase.

...and if you have good subs, TSTs are a waste of money. But if not, then just get a Y to go out to your subs and to the TST.

Course I for one, never run the sub with my music listening as I don't like the "added" effects of it. I'm a straight bypass type of person with my cheap B&W DM604 S3s.

[ajpoe]

With the the LFE turned off and no TST, the subs actually shake the couch more than my TST did. I am very impressed and still can't believe what I was missing.

My buddy just got an SVS PB12-ISD/2 and we watched The Haunting last night. It's a very nice sub and shook the heck out of everything. I came home and listened to the same big bass scenes in The Haunting in my setup and I think I felt it more than I did with his ISD/2.

I do really like having the subs blended in with the mains for music, I think the Studio 60s suffer some in the low end... I guess I could play music in Stereo mode to utilize the subs on the LFE, but then the 1068 would be processing sound after my DAC1 correct?

Let's say that I put all 4 of my subs on the LFE. I have dual sub outputs on my 1068 and 2 splitters, so that's not an issue (however, getting to the back of my cabinet is). How would you arrange them? Right now, they are kind of a 4 corner arrangement. Would you co-locate all 4 in my front left corner, put 2 on each side of each Studio 60 or just leave them where they are?

I am also entertaining the idea of selling my subs and getting something like the Paradigm Servo 15 or SVS PB12-Ultra/2 and running a single .1 sub setup again. This is something that I won't be doing unless I can sell my subs so I have some money to put toward a new sub. If I can cover around half of a new sub from the sale of mine, I may go that route but I don't know if I'll get much of an increase in sound over what I already have. Sometimes this stuff really makes my head hurt! :rofl:

[Chris D]

Hey, ajpoe! Sorry, I somehow missed this thread when it first came out. I have Clark Synthesis TST's. (which I'm kind of guessing you do too) Personally, I think the TST is one of the hardest things to setup, tell someone how to use, and utilize properly. I similarly think that TST's are the #1 most misused component in A/V systems when they are installed. The good news is, TST's can also be the #1 most exciting thing to the public when you demo your home theater. They're consistently one of the top 3 things people comment about in my theater. Experiencing misused TST's can be rather disappointing, leading many to make statements as PewterTA did above that "TST's can be a waste of money if you have good subwoofers". This is not an uncommon (or really invalid) statement unles you've really experienced a tweaked system. I plan on writing a good essay about proper TST use in a home theater, so I'll try to keep it high-level here.

1. A TST should only be used to AUGMENT bass reproduction, not replace it. So two things here on this point-

(a) You're right, you were missing out on a lot by sending your .1 LFE channel entirely to your TST. Glad you fixed it.
(b) Yes, a TST can help and be used as a "crutch" or "filler" for those with cheap subwoofers, especially if they are incapable of hitting lower bass frequencies. However, if you have a good subwoofer, the TST can bring the experience to a whole new level and still be very useful, not just redundant with the sub.

2. The greatest misuse of TST's is by turning up the gain too high, making the tactile sensations distracting instead of enhancing the experience. I think the natural instinct for a buyer is "Hey, I just spent a decent chunk of money and time on the TST, amplifier, and installation, I want to get my money's worth out of this baby!" Yes, I deliberately turn up the gain to impress my wide-eyed guests in theater demos. But for sustained watching and listening, I turn them down to a low to moderate level. Used in low moderation, the sustained experience is stunning.

3. TST's must be properly calibrated with the signal mix from various sound channels, frequency filter, and delay. This is where it REALLY gets tricky and I can't give specific guidance except to suggest experimentation. If it's way out of whack, again, it will be distracting.

I think I've got my TST's dialed in pretty good for my setup. I have six Clark Synthesis platinum TST's installed in six Salamander Matteo theater seats. They are individually powered by six monoblock Audio Source 5.3 amplifiers. (about 450W @ 4 Ohms) To feed the TST signal, I'm using a programmable output channel from my Parasound Halo C1 controller. The Halo is phenomenal with this capability, but if your receiver/processor doesn't do this, you can do the same thing with an external mixing box.

For the signal, I set my processor to mix in 100% of each channel in the system--Left, Right, Center, L Surround, R Surround, L Rear Surround, R Rear Surround, and LFE. (7.1 setup) So I'm getting full signals from all channels. If possible, you may find this best, or you may prefer 100% LFE and maybe 50% of all other channels. Originally, because the Clark TST's are full-ranged, I had no frequency filter and let the Clarks reproduce all frequencies. I found this to be a little annoying having them go all the time, so I progressively lowered and lowered the filter wth better results. Right now I have the lowpass filter set at 25Hz, so it only reproduces the lowest of bass frequencies to augment the really intense audio. Similary, I set the sound delay timing to what seemed best so that the TST would actuate and send the tactile signal directly to my body at the same time the audio signals would reach my ears.

Like I said, it's a setup in moderation. Many enthusiasts when seeing how I've got it setup might say "but you're underusing your equpment and not getting your money's worth!" I could crank the volume and remove the filter, which will literally leave your body tingling after a movie. But setting things moderately, it's so much more effective. There's times when I'm watching a movie later at night on my own that a deep explosion rumble will shake me, but I perceive it as bass. My brain says "wow, that must be shaking the house, waking up the family, I better turn it down!" I've even got up once or twice during it, only to realize the instant my butt leaves the seat that the audible portion of the bass is actually very acceptable, and my body had just been fooled. It's amazing.

This may seem long, but really, I've got more in-depth things to say, so I'll write my essay one of these days.

[ajpoe]

Actually Chris, I agree with the TST. My comment that the subs shake the couch more than the TST did is totally true... but that is because I wasn't running my full bass capabilities and had to tune down the TST to a low level so it wasn't overpowering the rest of the movie experience and becoming a distraction. Since I have rerouted the LFE information to my FL, FR, SL and SR channels, all 4 of those subs create a TON of bass. I have since attached the TST to the FL and FR channels so its getting the bass from the LFE, FL and FR. I was able to turn the TST up quite a bit because there was a lot more shaking for it to blend in with, but I am very happy with how that sounds now. I do not like the distraction factor at all so I had friends sit on the couch and dialed it into a level that they could feel, but as an enhancement and not a localized vibration/annoyance. It just adds to the experience.

Pewter's concern has always been a concern of mine as well... that is running the FL, FR, SL and SR full range. Unless I were to buy several Paradigm X-30 units, I don't know how to get around this. I really like having each sub on a channel and then sending the LFE to it as well and being surrounded by bass. I charted out all 5 channels running and found that my frequency response in the room was flat from 20 Hz to 31.5 Hz. Once i got into the low 30s, I start to peak upwards and I assume that is a result of my Studio 60s playing full range. It starts to slope down again where the sub would be leaving the picture. I had asked about adding something like these FMODs to my analog interconnects before they enter the 1075, but I was told that they were for car stereo use only and I should not use them. I guess I don't understand why they won't cut the low frequencies out of my speakers the same as they would in a car. I think they would at least help eliminate some of the low freqs from my mains even if it's not the perfect solution. Is there another inexpensive solution that I should explore?

I think going back to a .1 sub would be the easiest solution for movies, but I listen to A LOT more music and I really like having 2 full range channels with my subs blended into the fronts. I'm really torn on the best option...