Lil help please

[Penningtonsm]

I just bought a home, and to my satisfaction it has a separate family room that the misses has let me have to set up a home theater. I am relatively new to home theater projectors so i was hoping i could get some help. After reading a bit about them and with my budget in mind I deciced to go with the Panasonic 700. My question is this: My room is 15x15. Is this room going to be too small for a 92" screen. I dont want to go in there and feel like I am sitting in the front row of the MOvie Theaters. Also, I was thinking about going with the Bose Acoustimass 10 series speakers with a Harmon Kardon reciever. Will these speakers be too much for the size of my room. Thanks in advance for any and all of your help.

Steve

[CJ Paul]

1) Whether or not the rooom is big enough is not the issue, it depends on how far you are planning on sitting from the screen. Here (http://www.myhometheater.homestead.c...alculator.html) is a useful tool for calculating seating distance vs. screen size.

2) Bose? Uhm, they are good for if your absolute #1 priority is having speakers that dont draw any visual attention, or that dont take up any space in the room, but they are grossly overpriced for the performance you get.

For real Bose killers (room filling sound from smaller spakers, if that's your desire) at a similar cost check out Mirage (http://miragespeakers.com/index.shtml). Look at the Omnisat, Omnisat Micro, or Nanosat depending on what your volume level requirements would be. All of them are wall mountable and "palm-top" sized speakers. Of course, you'd need a sub, but just about any sub you could even lay your hands on would be better than Bose's "bass module". Also check out the AV123 Tyke system for a high quality, small, budget system. At $399, you cant beat it with a stick.

[BlazeMaster]

yea I'd stay away from the Bose also...let me guess, they sold you on their Bose "showroom" right? The sound that you heard in their showroom is hardly anything close to what you'll hear in your own room.
If size of speakers aren't your priority, Klipsch's RF7 series are really good, IMO for movies. And they're extremly efficient, so almost all receivers out there can drive them to insanely loud volumes, that's if 80dB+ describes your listening habits.

[David Meek]

Okay, I'll start... BOSE???? Run away, run away! :

Oh, sorry 'bout that. Hi Steve, welcome to The Guide. :welcome:

CJ has covered your points well, but I'll just throw my 2 cents in anyway. I'm using a 58" RPTV and viewing it from 8 feet (one row of 3 chairs - intimate, eh?) which is just about perfect according to the SMPTE standard - 30 degrees. Now for your screen size (after whipping out the calculator), 11 to 12 feet should be fine. That'll give you a viewing angle approaching 30 degrees which'll keep you from moving your head from side-to-side while watching movies, and yet not get you so far away it's not an immersive experience.

Bose? Uh well, just stay away from Bose. They have one of the best publicity/marketing/hyperbole departments in the business. If they sunk as much into R&D/production as they do into sales, they really could be one of the leaders. Unfortunately, they (like Monster) don't live up to the talk. CJ's AV123 Tykes, Energy's Take 5, PSB's Alphas, Gallo's Micros all are sonically much superior to Blows, 'scuse me Bose products.

HK receivers are good, reasonably priced units and you wouldn't be going wrong if you purchased one, but if I may suggest something? Look at the newer Yamaha, Pioneer or other brands that have an automatic acoustic set-up capability. Yamaha's YPAO and Pioneer's MCACC (sic?) applications will allow you to connect a microphone (provided with the receiver) to the receiver, set it in the primary listening position and then as the receiver plays various tones/signals, it modifies the output to minimize sonic problems caused by room interactions. This is a simple, cost-effective way to start out further along the sonic performance curve than could be imagined only a couple of years ago - I highly recommend you consider it.

Anyway, that's enough to drop on ya' for now. Please keep posting with questions, concerns or just to yak, okay? Best of luck, and see you later....

[Penningtonsm]

Jeeze Louise, I almost made a very big mistake it sounds like. Thanks alot guys for steering me away from the bose ( and yes it was the showroom that had me.) Well darnit now i have to start my research all over again and find a surround sound system that will sound great. Besides what good is a Home theater without great sound. Thanks guys. Back to the drawing board I guess....

[Andrew Pratt]

I'm using a 92" screen in my room and sit 11 feet back so you shouldn't have a problem in that room providing you aren't sitting much closer then that.

For audio HK's a good buy but DO NOT buy the Bose speakers without first listening to a wide variety of other brands. The one's David linked to are all MUCH better alternatives for less or similar money. Also if stealth is the main reason for going with Bose and the alternatives don't seem appealing (though the Energy Take 5 is more or less the same size but cheaper and better sounding) you might look into in-wall speakers. I've got full sized tower speakers up front but my surround speakers are going to soon be some nice in-wall speakers that I'm getting a good deal on from a forum sponsor (NextLevelAV)

[David Meek]

Back to the drawing board I guess....

Steve, it's not back to the drawing board - you're already off to a good start. You are asking the right questions BEFORE you take the financial plunge. We can all suggest our favorites to you, but as we all interpret/enjoy sounds differently, to keep from being disappointed it takes some leg-work to get out and listen to the various components.

One more thought. Consider what you like your movies/music to sound like. If you like lots of highs, or great mid-range, or stomach-churning bass, or some combination of the above, we can steer you towards components that will meet your expectations. Or, we can suggest others that have an overall balance and accuracy that you may want, or.... Again, just let us know.

Heh, Raymond got in there while I was typing my novel. Here comes Andrew, too. The Nightowl group is online, eh?

[Penningtonsm]

Thanks for all the advice guys. I checked out most of the sites that you guys suggested, and they are all cheaper than Bose so if they sound better than that will make me very happy. All I basically want my HT room for is to watch DVD's and almost feel as if I am in the Theaters. Lots of good suggestions on this board, sure am glad I came.

[Jraducha]

im sorry but bose should be spelled BLOWES

[Penningtonsm]

One more question guys. It says that the av123 tykes comes with a Kenwood vrs 7100 reciever (for a limited time) for only 100 bucks more. This would have my system at a very affordable 500bucks. Is the Kenwood good enough for DVD viewing and Playstation2/xbox playing?

[CJ Paul]

That Tyke/Kenwoood deal is a very good price. Its obviously not the best receiver in the world but its a good match for the speakers and a nice budget model. Considering that this receiver and the speakers together are HALF the MSRP of the Bose Acoustitrash 10 system, you'd be in pretty good shape.

[David Meek]

Is the Kenwood good enough for DVD viewing and Playstation2/xbox playing?

Short answer, yes. Kenwoods aren't a bad brand and it'll give you the inputs necessary to hook up a DVD/CD unit and a game box, then output them in some choices of surround sound formats.

Long answer, well maybe. And that's with lots of other facts to consider with regard to the bigger picture (pun intended). Some examples are: Are the amps clean enough (in your judgement, and after some extended period of critical listening) to put out accurate, un-distorted, un-colored music and soundtracks? Are the amps powerful enough to play cleanly at levels you enjoy? Are there enough surround-sound formats available to maximize your enjoyment of multi-channel music, such as DPL II, DD+, etc? Will it accept multi-channel inputs from a dedicated SACD and/or DVD-A player? What level is the build-quality? Will it last for you? All of these are fairly important, as people tend to want better performance after they hear other peoples' systems and as their own level of discrimination raises from experience.

A couple of tools you'll want to look into are an SPL (Sound Pressure Level) meter and a DVD set-up disc like AVIA or Digtial Video Essentials (which I prefer). Remember my comments about the auto-calibration features on some receivers? These tools are the manual equivalent, plus the set-up disc will help calibrate your color, brightness and contrast settings on the projector.

Gotta get to work. Later....

[CJ Paul]

David is correct. I think we need to keep in mind that currently we are speaking more realistically about pairing that Kenwood with the Tyke system. Sure, a Denon 5803 is a better receiver, but its totally overkill too. IF you go with that Tyke system, take some of the money you save and buy and SPL meter and a calibration disk. A $500 HT system calibrated will best a $1000 uncalibrated system any day of the week, unless the owner just gets lucky with the settings.

[David Meek]

A $500 HT system calibrated will best a $1000 uncalibrated system any day of the week, unless the owner just gets lucky with the settings.

So true. So true.

[Andrew Pratt]

The only issue with the small speakers like the Tykes and Take 5's is that they aren't going to be able to fill a medium sized room that well. The subwoofer especially is going to struggle in that room for todays demanding movie sound tracks. Now that assumes you like to listen to movies at a fairly loud level (approaching theatre volumes)...if you're more likely to listen at reduced TV show type volumes they'll likely be fine. Part of the problem is the ultra small drivers these bose like speakers use...they simply can't play very loud or extend very deep which can cause problems over lapping smoothly with the subwoofer. If you can stretch the speaker size up a notch to say Paradigm Atoms or Energy Encore they'll be able to ply louder and extend deep enough to make a more smooth transision to the sub. For subwoofers I'd really recomend not buying one as part of a package deal if you can help it. A good subwoofer is the cornerstone of your speakers (along with the center channel) for movies and there's nothing worse then listening to a little sub distort when an explosion happens on the screen. Luckilly there's some reasonably affordable subwoofers available. That said assuming you do move up to some larger speakers and buy a quality sub you're going to be looking at a budget that's much closer to what the Bose speakers would cost you. As I said above to in-wall speakers like Pinnacles would be a great way to go as well. This K line has a MTM speaker that would be ideal for the front three speakers if the budget allows and there's nothing more stealth then in-wall speakers. I don't know that I'd recomend an in-wall subwoofer though. Our forum sponser NextLevel AV (see link below) offers those Pinnacles for a price similar to the Paradigms and Energy's as well as other lines above and below that price point if that's something you'd like to investigate.

I also don't mean to sway you away from the Tykes as they're a good little speaker...I'm just worried that they aren't going to give you the satisfaction you're looking for on a long term basis in that size of room.

[CJ Paul]

Thats a good point Andrew. My suggestions were more for Bose-replacement type of speakers. In reality, one of the issues with Bose's bang for the buck is that you can get much bigger speakers for the same price. It depends on what your priorities are. To help, rank the following along with any other items you consider important.

Overall Sound Quality
Size/Asthetics of the speakers/wall mountable/etc.
Bass
Price (is $1000 your budget or would you rather stay lower, could you go higher, etc.)

In general, provide us as much additional info as possible.

[Penningtonsm]

Man you guys are the shi...... when it comes to this kinda stuff. Maybe in a couple years I too will know as much. But for now, heres my ranking.

I really dont care how big the speakers are, I just thought it would save room for other furniture if I had small wall-mount type of speakers. Sound is what I care about most. In my 15x15 room I would like it to sound as close to theater-like as possible. However i have a very modest budget as I spent the bulk of my budget on the Projector and accessories. I would say about $700 max is my budget.

I went to a couple of audio stores today just to kinda get a feel for the way some speakers sound and are priced and all I saw was sony, yahama and bose for the most part. Very discouraging. Hope this helps you guys help me.

Thanks

[Andrew Pratt]

Is that $700 for just the speakers or speakers and receiver? What accessories did you buy? Maybe we can make some adjustments in there to free up some funding for the speakers. Also is this budget something you're going to have to live with for a long time or is there a possibility of upgrading or adding to it later? I'm thinking along the lines of not getting a subwoofer right now and buying it later vs. buying lesser speakers now.

Assuming we can forgo the subwoofer for the time being and that $700 is available just for the speakers my suggestions would be to look at the Energy Encore 2's for the front and back and the matching center speaker. That should eat up all that $700 and maybe a wee bit more depending on what deal you can get. I know NextLevel can get Energy but I don't know if they can ship out of their region as Energy is pretty restrictive about that. Paradigm Atoms are going to be about the same price as well and worth listening to as well. Both of these can accept nice wall mounts or stands if you like. If in-walls are an option you could do a nice install of the Pinnacles for all 5 speakers around that price range as well. I have some of the K series in-walls on their way and am familar with both the Encores and Atoms if you want to wait till I've listened to mine.

[CJ Paul]

Guys, arent there some pretty budget minded JBL packages that use bigger drivers than say Paradigm Cinema series (is that their small one), Energy Take 5, Tykes, etc? Also, check out hometheaterdirect.com. My brother has the Level II package sans sub (he went with a different sub but in hindsight, the Level II sub would probably equal what he has or, you could see what kind of discount they'll give you if you ordered level II speakers with a level III sub. The speakers use fairly high quality drivers of much bigger size than those found in some of the micro sats we've mentioned. You'd still be under budget and would have larger "sounding" speaker which means its going to feel more theater-like. I'd also add that my brother has NEVER had any problem reaching whatever volume level he wants with the Level IIs

[Andrew Pratt]

I'd forgotten about the www.hometheaterdirect.com guys. I've heard good things about them too.

The popular JBL's were the Northridge line. I'm not sure if they're still the deal they once were but they use a pretty small driver from what I recall...at least on the ones I've seen locally.

[CJ Paul]

HTD did a lot of forum sponsorships and later dropped a lot of them after they got off the ground. Take it for whatever that's worth. I'd say the Level II and IIIs are in line with Paradigms Monitor line to name a popular speaker. In fact, I was definately (honestly) bummed to hear how close the Level II bookshelves ($140) sounded compared to a pair of mini-monitors ($330). My brother still has these speakers although I havent heard them recently.

[Penningtonsm]

Ok i checked out the level II and level III's and the III's would wipe out my whole budget and leave me with no receiver. Hmmmm, maybe my budget is too small. Or maybe I should just get a good receiver and look for speakers at a different time. Which is more important a good receiver or good speakers? I have four floor standing speakers (10 inch klh, and 15 inch jensens) OOhh the horror. This or that....Time to rethink the strategy. The last thing i want to do is buy a system and have it sounding.....not so good.

[RobP]

Penningtonsm I would go with the speakers first. Have you considered buying used speakers from Ebay? Just the other night I picked up some B&W CDM7SE's and a CC6s2 center for $340 with shipping and they were in perfect shape. If you look you can find great deals and stretch your dollar. Just make sure that what you buy is in great condition.Take a look at the older 600 series, they really are a decent speaker for the money, plus they hold their value well in case you ever decide to upgrade in the future. Also RUN don walk away from Bose! We have a saying in the theatre industry," all highs, no lows, must be bose!"

[Penningtonsm]

I will definitly be looking on ebay for speakers and receivers just as soon as i find the right one or two. But thanks for the tip. I dont mind used as long as they are in good condition like you said.

[David Meek]

If you are open to used speakers, look at Audiogon. It's a site similar in operation to Ebay, but dedicated to audio and video electronics. This is just my perception, but on Ebay there is more of a chance of "getting ripped off" than there is on Audiogon.

Back to speakers and room size. Steve, consider spacing your budget out over 3 purchases instead of 2 (a receiver and a speaker system). The 3 being receiver, speakers and sub. It's not necessary to have a sub to enjoy surround sound - although once you add a capable sub, you'll be going 8O . Bang for the buck buying order IMO would be the speakers first, sub second and receiver last. Also, putting the receiver last in line will give the various manufacturers time to squeeze more capabilities into their units, or drop the prices on existing models.

As you are in a 15 x 15 room, non-sub speakers' driver size is an issue to be considered but it isn't a deal-breaker, especially with the highly efficient ones you are looking at. Unfortunately though, that room size will impact your sub's performance. Pressurizing the room to get that "feel it in your chest" moment will require a more substantial sub driver size than the 8" commonly found in "system" subs. To enjoy that kind of sub performance you'll need at least a good 12" driver, or more prefferably a 15" or dual 12"s. For a decent quality unit in that range look at the SVS line. There are lots more things to consider with subs/speakers (and we'll be ready to get into those when you feel comfortable), but understand that integrating a different brand sub with whatever speakers you choose is fairly simple and painless. Again, this is an advantage to spacing out your purchases - you can get more performance with a little patience.

[Shane Martin]

Speaker wise:
NHT would be good for the price range. SB1's or Superzeros are easily found for a budget price. Combine that with a decent sub or no sub for a little while until you can pony up for a sub like the SVS pb10 which would rock your world for the price. A digital receiver like the Kenwood or the Panasonic would provide the recievers functions for $299 or so. I would rather you not get a sub now and get a better one when you can afford to do it right. A whole lot less money spent in the future when upgraditis kicks in(it always does).

NHTHifi.com

[Andrew Pratt]

Agreed wait on the receiver or buy one of the new digital panasonics that are getting rave reviews as they're pretty cheap (sub $300)