Sunfire Amp. What next? HT setup from scratch.

[Rolyasm]

Hello,
Setting up my HT from scratch. House and room will be complete in about 5 months so I am preparing now. Size of room is 18x23x9(or 8), so a little over 3,000sf. Dedicated room, enclosed. I just got a good deal on a Sunfire Grand Cinema Amp, 225 x 5. Besides my main HT room, I am going to have a game room. I already have a 65 inch HDTV(mitsubishi), Denon 3802, and polk audio speakers 5.1. I like the Polk towers, not much else. So my questions to myself are like this:
1)Should I keep my 3802 for the game room or use it as a preamp in the HT. Or, should I buy a cheaper receiver to use in my game room? Or should I Use the Denon 3802 in the HT and buy a different receiver for the game room. The game room is part of a much larger room, being the downstairs Kitchen/bar. So acoustics probably won't be great in the game room.
2)Subs and speakers. I have been on this forum asking about subs, I think either I build my own or go SVS.
Speakers. I have listened to and liked the Defenitive Tech 7000 series that have a build in sub with them. Good for movies, but too much bass for music. Listened to some B&W 703's, nice, but too pricey for little difference in sound. They were to "bright" for me, or I think that is the word. Very high pitches. Liked them for music, ok for theater. Fine for theater if they cost only $1500 a pair instead of $3000. Been looking at and reading about Axiom. All the customers seem to like them, and I don't mind trying them and sending them back for $100. Worth the time if they are as good as people say. Anyone heard them? I could get the entire 60 package, w/o sub for under $3000.
Anyway. If I got the D.Techs with built in sub, I guess it would be redundant to get another sub. Or would it? Do built in subs offer as much directional and setup control. I mean if I have too, I will glue my subs to the ceiling if they sound better there.
Lots of questions. Any answers?
Matt

[jimmyp58]

Matt:

Please see your PM.

Jim

[Rolyasm]

Is PM Papa Murphies, or Pimp Magnet, or something else?
:0

[David Meek]

Private Messages. Click the User CP buttom at the top of the page.

Pimp Magnet??? Now I'm scared... :

[jimmyp58]

Well at least it isn't PMS!!!

[Rolyasm]

Looks like nobody wants to tackle this. Too much info maybe? Come on all you crazy HT nuts. Let me pick your brain. You can come over later and eat popcorn with me while we watch all 3 LOTRings in a row, the extended versions no less.

[purplepeople]

Normally I would suggest 5 active studio monitors but you've already bought your amplifier. Since you are in the price range of Def Tech, you might want to see what the going street prices are for PMC passive monitors.

ensen.

[purplepeople]

I do not know what the street prices are but I've also demo'ed M&K monitors and they are also very good. Usually when discussing M&K and PMC, ATC also gets a mention. Although I've never demo'ed ATC, that many mastering and recording studio engineers cannot be wrong.

ensen.

[David Meek]

Looks like nobody wants to tackle this. Too much info maybe? Come on all you crazy HT nuts. Let me pick your brain. You can come over later and eat popcorn with me while we watch all 3 LOTRings in a row, the extended versions no less.

Matt, I'll be tickled to weigh-in on this, but it's going to be late tonight before I can contribute anything substantive. See ya' then.... :later:

P.S. That's a LOT of popcorn you are talking about.

[Rolyasm]

Hey, it is 10pm, where are you David? Can't wait forever for this reply. hehe.

[Rolyasm]

Since I haven't asked this yet, what do you all think of Sunfire? The amp is 225x5. The THD is 0.5%, high, I know. Do you think I should take it back and get an amp with a lower THD, or will my ear even be able to tell a difference? I'm all ears. I also have read that there are several levels of THD, and some are not as bad as others. I need some help from you smart dudes. Thanks
Roly

[Paul H]

Matt,

You'll get a lot of help here - I know I have - but I think your post had too many questions and not enough info in it.

For example, re the 3802 Denon, you asked if you should put it in your ht or games room. The answer is it depends. If you're looking for an ok home theatre sound system, and don't want to spend more money, put the 3802 as a home theatre preamp, and pick up a dirt cheap receiver on ebay for the games room. If you've got some money to spend, and/or want crystal clear higher end theatre sound, throw that 3802 in the games room and get yourself a separate preamp for the home theatre.

I'm using a Yamaha 3300 as my preamp/surround amp (similar level as Denon 4802) and anyone who's been in my theatre room has been very impressed with our sound system for movies - but when I have a few thousand dollars to spare I will buy a bryston preamp (sound like a plan jimmy? )

Paul

[aud19]

It really depends on your budget as Paul eluded to.

Let's start at the top. Sunfire make good, powerful but yes, slightly noisy amps. The only way to know for sure if that will bother you is to listen to it. Try to listen to a Sunfire compared to some other brands on the same set of speakers at a store. Rotel and Parasound come to mind as a couple of good options that are still relatively affordable and good quality. If you've got some $$$ check out Bryston.

As for the 3802... If you have money I'd say send it to the game room and get a decent, affordable preamp. Again Rotel and Parasound are good places to start. For the Game room, are you planning on running a 5.1 setup in there as well or just stereo speakers? If it's just stereo, you could even sell off the 3802 and get a small 2-channel amp and just run second zone from your theatre. Add an IR repeater system and you're good to go.

Subs, sounds like you've already got figured out

Speakers... always the toughest as they're very subjective and will have the biggest impact on the final sound. If you don't like the DefTech's for music, don't buy them. The general rule of thumb is: find a speaker that does music well first, anything that can do music properly should have no problems with soundtracks. You may want to look up info on speaker brands that tend to be more neutral and/or warmer if you find B&W's too bright. It's possible the B&W's may not have been broken in as well, they tend to be a bit aggressive when new. I happened to like my Energy speakers as they kept the "air" and "crispness" at the top end without getting as spitty or aggressive as B&W's, so perhaps they might be worth a look for you, though I suspect you may be looking for something even warmer. PSB makes extremeley neautral, flat measuring speakers. They tend to have less "wow" factor because they are so neutral but there's very clean and accurate. Other brands to look at... Kef, Totem, Vienna Acoustics... I'm sure other will come along with more suggestions.

[purplepeople]

Also, you've mentioned upto $3000 for speakers. That very interesting considering you're building the room from the ground up. I'm guessing you have factored in some acoustic treatments for the walls, floor and ceiling, which will take some of the overall volume out of the sound, makingit closer to free space in it's response. If that Sunfire is 0.5% THD at 225W, it should be much lower than 0.1% at 75W, which is around 100dB for typical 85db/W speakers. Factor in a loss of 6dB for each meter (or yard) and you get around 85dB for seats in the middle of the room and 5 speakers at each corner.

If, like many, you move the speakers about a yard off each corner to get louder, your mid-bass lift will be gone creating a a net change of 12dB from the previous mid/treble EQ. This is why many speakers that sound so good in store end up bright in room and why the sub cross ends up being a little higher than 40-80Hz.

One thing that I've found is that moving the speakers closer to the listening position helps synchronize the audio and video. For very large rooms, the video image gets to my eyes about 5-10 ms before the sound and since you can only manage audio delay, there is actually no fix. Often the work-around is to turn up the volume, fooling our brains into believing the source is closer. Once again, the problem is noise and distortion.

The reason for suggesting studio monitors is that they offer extremely big bang for buck. Many will say they can sound analytical, which is usually true, but the fact remains that I've never heard of a reviewer for a consumer publication give bad marks to any decent studio monitor. Usually, they say things like "one of the best speakers I've ever heard, regardless of price" and that's saying a lot for people who get big mfg sending them review components every other week. Unlike many consumer brands, the specs laid out for pro gear are quite truthful, since AES members are usually buying them. In general, a Bryston dealer can get PMCs. Here's one I found on Froogle.

http://www.atlasproaudio.com/pmc.html

ensen.

[Rolyasm]

Yes, I have factored, or will factor wall treatments and things to make the room sound better. I was hoping to get into an entire system for around $10,000. Paul, what is the price on your Yamaha 3300?
Also, my mistake, I have the 3801 Denon, still a good unit for me.
I have to admit, I cranked the volume on the Sunfire Amp at the store, it was hooked to a sunfire ultimate receiver and some KEF speakers, I believe, and it sounded fine to me. But I will still look further and if I see an amp with similar power but lower THD, perhaps I will take the Sunfire back.
Purple: you mention studio monitors. Are they an Atlas product? I looked at the Atlas link, whew, lots of cashola. Thanks for all the inputs. Getting closer to my goal. Also, just found out a bud of mine has a friend with Axioms. I will listen to them in a few weeks and see how I like them.
Roly

[Paul H]

Matt,

My own Yamaha isn't for sale, as I don't have a few thousand right now to buy a bryston preamp

I like the 3300, but that unit certainly isn't the end-all for home theatre receivers - I only mentioned it to point out that it is possible to get very good sound from good receivers.

However, with the sort of budget you've mentioned I'd put the 3801 in the games room and buy a separate preamp/processor (it's soooo easy to spend someone else's money - but that is what I'd do).

Speakers I just think you have to listen, listen and listen some more.

I'd recommend the diy route for subwoofers - there are numerous proven designs that provide great sound, and you don't need a pile of test equipment and design software to build one. I'd really look at an infinite baffle sub, especially where you're building a dedicated theatre and the house isn't built yet.

Paul

[purplepeople]

Actually, the TB2 monitors are listed as $1245/pair. These are spec'ed at 40-25kHz +/-3dB and come in a variety of optional finishes. And have been reviewed very well all over the web. PMC's would be my next purchase if I weren't waiting for DLP projectors to get a littler cheaper. I heard a 5.1 set using DB1's some time ago and was totally blown away. That's when I first started my love affair with transmission lines.

And all the raves you hear about Brystons are true. So if you get the active monitors, you get some seriously good amplification for relatively cheap.

Years ago, when I bought my Tannoy Proto-J's, I didn't know anything about studio monitors but was shopping around for a pair of entry level bookshelf speakers. I tried all the usual brands... Mission, Polk, Energy, Paradigm and even listened to some B&W302s. Plain and simple, the Proto-J's were better at everything. And, they were cheaper than everything else. I couldn't figure out why until I really started to get into this 'phile hobby and realized that MSRP is what the market will bear. Since working professionals have to meet ROI, pricing is lower for better performance. In home, the two criteria are performance and WAF. So more effort is placed on looks rather than lowering cost. When it was time to relegate the Proto-J's to rear surround duty, I ended up with Yorkville YSM-1p active monitors. These sound better than any passive speakers in the same price range. The bonus is that the amplifiers are effectively free.

Only now, home audio enthusiasts are just beginning to discover the benefits of using good pro equipment. Bryston owners will attest to this as there is no difference between the studio gear and the consumer line except maybe the eye candy face plates. PMC pro and home lines are the same speakers. Besides, you are building a system into the room so you can put everything into the wall next to your seating, behind some dark glass so it doesn't matter what it looks like.

Does your $10K budget include video or is that just the audio?

If audio, I recommend something like a Bryston pre/pro driving your Carver with 6 PMC TB2S on stands at least 3 feet from corners in a fully equidistant pattern as specified for SACD multi-channel. BTW, this is the same spec that Dolby recommends for AC3.

I would put the front pair on stands to match the vertical center of the screen. If necessary, try to get the screen center at a height that is not an even fraction of the room height, like 4.712 feet. This is similar to placing drivers in a box. This is also usually high enough that rear seats get good direct sound.

Then place the rears a little higher to get the proper extra height as specified for AC3. You may have to angle the speakers downward at the seats. This is actually good as any reflections will be off-axis with less effect.

Fortunately, you're not building the speakers into the wall so tweaks here will be easy. The sonic disadvantage of putting speakers in the wall is that it affects the effective size of the front baffle, making short work of what might be a good sounding design. The other problem is that you have to calculate the acoustics of the speaker inside the hole in the wall. I noticed this in a local studio that had "integrated" their big Genelecs and it totally ruined the sound of $20K worth of speakers. Either re-calculate or don't do it.

If you can't afford the pre/pro right away, put the Denon into service as a pre/pro and get an Audigy and Logitech for the games room. Heck, get the Audigy and play the games in your HT room and really impress your friends. Just make the rule that you always get to win and they will come over and play anyway.

I would use 2 TB2S side-by-side and on their side for a wide center channel that will better match the screen width and initially run no rear center (it's behind your head and any fidelity there is mostly lost). Add a sub just in front of the center seats and run a delay to match the shorter arrival time and you're good to go.

Upgrade later with a pair of active rear centers placed either side of seating. Again, these should be placed equidistant from seating to match the arrival times without having to use the digital delay (less processing is better, right?).

Maybe it's crazy but that's how I would spend your 10K. My own money, a little differently, but mostly the same way.

ensen.

[Rolyasm]

"I would use 2 TB2S side-by-side and on their side for a wide center channel that will better match the screen width and initially run no rear center (it's behind your head and any fidelity there is mostly lost). Add a sub just in front of the center seats and run a delay to match the shorter arrival time and you're good to go."

I am dumb. Since I have a the sunfire 225x5 (still considering taking it back) but have six speakers, how would I run that? 5 channels on amp, six speakers? Do use one amp channel for both centers and split the power?

Are monitors the same things as bookshelves? If so, I listened to some, Trilogy (if that is a speaker company) and some M&K THX certified. They both sounded good, gave good imaging, but I have a hard time getting over something so small. If I am doing mostly home theater, are monitors by first choice? I am going to DIY self or go SVS, so I should be ok there. But I really want to feel when Darth Vader's Battleship flies over at the first of SWars. Do you think the TB2's would give me that? The local guys that showed me the M&K's recommended them over the more pricey speakers they had: Theil, Energy. I just had a hard time believing that a pair of speakers for $800.oo will suffice in my HT room. I may have to re-think my "big" speaker complex.
Roly

[purplepeople]

Monitors and speakers are different words in different markets for the same thing. One difference I've found is that most monitors do not come with grilles and most speakers do. Most 'phile-class home users remove grilles when possible so monitors are not at a disadvantage in that market. The only need for a grille is when your spouse hates the big round speaker look or you have toddlers that like to poke in the dust caps!

I admit that putting two speakers paralleled to a single amp channel is unconventional, but it is the only way I know to get a center channel that is as wide as the images on a big screen. I've noticed this at my sisters house, where two people are talking from opposite sides of a 50" RPTV the sound is still coming from dead centre. Admittedly, most people will not notice this sort of thing and the soundtrack was probably not well mixed, but the effect will be more pronounced on a 70"+ projection. And yes, the best way is to get enough amplifiers for each speaker, but I would be surprised if that big Carver couldn't drive the lower impedance load. When you upgrade to dual rear centers, maybe instead go passive, get another Sunfire and use it. With that much available juice, you could make your DIY sub passive.

And yes, please re-think your big speaker stereotypes (pun intended). A well designed little speaker will be better sounding that a poorly designed big speaker. Driver choice is a big part. There are some very good 6" drivers that not only go low, but do it very smoothly. It is true that to go very low, you need bigger drivers... that is physics. But engineering determines the quality of that response. Besides, you won't feel the rumble all through your bones until you add a sub. Yes, true full range speakers will do that too, since they have a sub built in, but why pay for 5 subs when you only need one or two.

That said, the best sub I've ever felt was an M&K. Wasn't that much, maybe $2000. I believe it was a transmission line, which are easy to DIY and will satify your big speaker fetish as many of the 20Hz TL-subs are 8' long tubes. With the right delay, you could have to lay it on the floor between 1st and 2nd row seats or make it a riser for the second row. (On another forum, one guy built one under the bed... I wonder why?).

Go and listen to everything. M&K, Axiom, PMC, even Bose. Do not buy unheard. But don't just bring your favourite CDs and DVDs. Pick some material that can really test out the highs, lows, detail, clarity and smoothness. I believe there is a thread where people have listed their reference material.

Also, look at a website called proaudioreview and see how the reviewers describe their speaker listening experiences. As an experiment, I went to the pro store to see if their impressions were accurate and yes.. for the monitors I could demo, the review descriptions were dead on.

ensen.

Sorry to be verbose, but all the snow we've had lately is an exciting change from the usual weather.

[Rolyasm]

Wow, I sure have come full circle. Ends up I took my Sunfire back. I was intending to buy an Earthquake Amp. instead, and still might. The stats on it look much better than Sunfire and the price was close. My newest direction is possibly building everything from scratch. A friend in the business wants to build me some speakers, I think he uses Tannoy mainly, and wants to build an amp. I am going to see the price on the project tomorrow so I should know then. The new idea is to build the sub into the riser under the back row, but I think I may still want another sub. One opinion I hear is that the sub under the floor will be good for movies and for shaking the room, but may not be accurate. I haven't heard much on this yet, so I still need research. Just poured the foundation for the house so I have to get busy. Thanks All.
Roly

[Rolyasm]

Specs on New Setup? What you think.

Alright. Finally have the quote in my hand. I am sure I won't be able to tell you all you want to know, but here goes. I will list the products being used and websites to check specs, if possible.

Amplifer: Spectra Sonics 701 power amps. This is an old company located in my home state of Utah. AV guy, Bill, is using 8 amps, biamping fronts, center and sub. 125w per channel. Rear channels will be run off receiver. Spectra Sonics Specs: Draw of 1.5 amps @8 ohms, 6.0 amps @2 Ohms. Professional rated, not "A" rated. 122 db between 20-20Khz. Peak resistive. Damping Factor (output imped. amp/imput speaker) of 1000+. I have something written down about 1000RMS, but uncertain what he was telling me.

Receiver: Sherwood R945 A/V receiver. I might change this to a newer model, or one with a better remote. Thinking of teh R965 or the Denon 3805, both around $1,000. Since this is an older receiver, specs are hard to find, but it is a 100x5 DTS.

Speakers: Tannoy CMS12 TDC-8. These speakers will be mounted for 6.1 or maybe 7.1 sound. They will be in wall. AV guy will tune them to room. These speakers are also hard to find specs. Here is a site. http://avalive.com/products/pdetail.php?pid=66434
These speakers are rated for 24 hours of Pink Noise. I think hi-fi is 5 or 10 minutes.

Subwoofer: JBL Pro 15" : Forgot to get the exact model, but here are the facts I have. High power, low frequency, 600w AES(application engineered series)Vented Gap Cooling, 8 Ohms. He will build it into my rear riser and port/tune it for room. You can read about the AES series in this PDF :http://www.jblpro.com/JBL_Professio...Catalog2005.pdf Page11
or http://www.usspeaker.com/JBL%202226h-1.htm. The specs say it is only rated down to 30 Hz, so I am a little worried it won't give me that deep, true base as say DIY, SVS, HSU, etc. Will I have to have a seperate in the corner?

My room is 18x23 with 9 foot ceilings, though I can change this since I am building. Might slope the ceiling to avoid those 90 degree angles. I am going to offset the studs to help contain sound. Probably use foam or carptet/fabric type stuff on walls.

I will get more info. Does this help at all. My budget is around 10k, with video, might go over. Thanks.
Roly