Do you hear a difference between Balanced and RCA?

[Ricky]

Looking for thoughts on those who have tried XLR vs RCA interconnects on runs of 2M or less. Did you hear a difference? If so, what was it? What was the associated preamp/prepro and amp(s)? Length of interconnects?

I realize that XLR increases the gain by ~ 6dB, so one needs to calibrate appropriate (with a sound meter) for listening comparisons.

[JonMarsh]

An interesting question, but one that I think in principle would be difficult to draw any valid "general" conclusions, becuase of the differences in techniques that are used to implement balanced circuitry.

A lot of equipment with a couple of balanced inputs and outputs reflect marketing feature lists more than integrated design- and accomplish this by adding a single stage active differential to single ended converter using an opamp, and for differential outputs add a similar phase slpitter stage, again using an opamp.

This is in considerable contrast to the methods employed at, for example, at Ayre or Rowland. For Ayre, the entire signal path is differential balanced internally, and it's the "single ended" input or output which is the add-on accomodation, by driving the input with only one phase (which for a true differential balanced amplifier with high CMRR still produces a full balanced signal at the output). In the case of Rowland, they use premium Jensen transformers for balanced inputs and outputs, and justifiably tout the EMI and RFI rejection these components bring to the party.

In fact, a number of components sold as balanced inputs really aren't true differential balanced amplifiers- such as the Aragon Palladium monoblocks, which is really two channels of independent amplifier wired to the + and - inputs of the XLR. If a simple singled ended to balanced cable is used with these, one of the outputs then doesn't even "swing"; it just acts as a virtual ground for the other, cutting the output power substantially.

Last, doing the comparison fairly would require some attention to the cables them selves, to make sure they weren't an undue part of the comparison- they should be of the same brand and type, but just with the different termination; for example, balanced and single ended Cardas Neutral Reference.

My own experience is that for very short runs with equipment on the same AC line extension, and with chasis grounds tied together, there's no audible difference with my Ayre or home brew gear, which is full differential balanced input to output. For longer connections, and situations where there are more than one power feed in the complete system, or if PC's are involved, or cable tuners, balanced isolation, especially for long cables, is most desirable.

With high end Sony SACD or CD players, the balanced connection seems to add a little aditional veiling and fizz- not suprising, because after all, it's adding another op amp stage.

To use another ancient quip which still hasn't lost it's validity,

"No generalization is worth a damn, including this one" :LOL:

Best regards,

Jon




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[Ricky]

[Ricky]

Jon,

Thanks for the writeup. From what you are saying, it seems like the benefit of balanced is dependent on the gear, the system, the cables, and the listener's ears.

Rich Wu let me borrow a pair of his balanced cables (Tara Labs?), and I am using a 1M pair of Audioquest Ruby for RCA. I did some back and forth on two CD tracks, making sure the first note in the first track hit exactly 80dB on my meter everytime. The Aragon volume control varies by 5.5-6.0dB. I just need to get behind my rack and flick on the two RCA/XLR switches on the back of my Parasound 2200II amp. Preamp/prepro is Aragon Soundstage.

So far, I think the balanced might produce a little wider, more defined soundstage, but any difference is subtle to my ears. I will leave the balanced cables in for a few days (using a generic balanced cable on my center amp).

As far as background noise, my front amps/speakers produce the very low hiss/humm from a couple of inches away at the normal volume setting of 50 (no source playing). As I turn up the volume, hissing doesn't became more apparent until volume of ~70. This is identical for both types of cables.

On the palladium monoblocks. What are your thoughts on how they compare to the 8008BB? And the differences/thoughts on palladium I vs palladium II?

[Lex]

Not only that, but add to that, the listening environment. Since balanced are less prone to noise, that alone could give the nod to the balanced.

It is worthwhile to reference our discussion in AVChalet about balanced, and the fact "True Balanced", is not "just XLR". XLRs can still be slightly unbalanced, like most of us in this crazy hobby. :LOL:




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[Chris D]

Jon-

Wait, wait, wait... are you saying that using balanced cables can actually ADD noise?
:wtf:

Whoa... haven't heard that one before. I've been thinking about the whole balanced thing.




CHRIS
Luke: "Hey, I'm not such a bad pilot myself, you know"

[sattothestars]

XlR connections are primarily used for long commercial runs because of their rejection of RF which is one the one of the culprits of unwanted noise being introduced.As mentioned before if the the audio gear is not a truly balanced design,there is no benefit in using XLR.Most home audio never has runs long enough to really justify xlr though there are those who believe it makes a difference.However,in the digital domain the difference can be remarakable.Using and AES/EBU cable will have the benefits,as digital is prone to RF which is one of the causes of harshness and glare.The only true way is to use the same brand and type cables and have someone perform a blind test with you.The placebo affect is always in gear when it comes to cables.There are differences.To what degree and wether the cost justifies the results is another question.




JLF sattothestars