CD Transport from across the pond...

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  • JonMarsh
    Mad Max Moderator
    • Aug 2000
    • 15302

    CD Transport from across the pond...

    Sit back and relax, this is just another tale of weirdness with a little wonderfulness mixed in for goodmeasure (the best we can often hope for in life, no? )

    Sometime while I was at the movie and out to dinner, the folks from the post office dropped off a package I've been waiting for several weeks. It was a replacement modified Philips CDM12 transport, which goes in the item picture below, an APN Hawk Audio modified Philips CD753. Yes, more strange stuff from across the pond, from your European correspondent and employee, Jon.

    What is this all about? It's a modified CD player, in which the conventional audio portion is stripped out for all purposes, a new power transformer and some capacitors are incorporated, and a variety of key capacitors on the digital board and transport controller board are replaced with Sanyo OSCON capacitors, probably the lowest impedance polarized capacitors currently available- which is why they're used in things like Pentium IV and Athlon VRM regulators. (Believe me, I know, I'm working on a new design this week with some of our unreleased power components for a P4 VRM regulator for a CPU not yet in production).

    Additionally, the chasis is beefed up with a non-resonant base, and a considerable amount of damping material in strategic locations. There are some other tweaks incorporated which I've identified, which out of resect for John van der Sluis and his band of designers and music lovers, I'll forgo discussing. Why give everything away, hmmm :?:








    Maybe because I've walked and noodled around a few cities and a lot of smaller villages on the continent, and even perused some computer and audio emporiums there, the idea of purchasing on "speculation" an unusual but possibly high value piece of gear doesn't frighten me the way I suppose it might those who's shopping experiences are largely confined to the Mall, or their local Good Guys, Tweeter, or SoundTrack. On the other hand, maybe I'm just dense and reckless, too! :LOL:

    As initially received in early February, this unit didn't work, due to some mechanical issues with the actual transport mechanism. :roll: Although there was no apparent package damage for the complete transport, it would accept a disk only briefly, then spit it back out without having even read the TOC. Inspection of the unit with the cover off determined the disk was not being clamped and read properly. A replacement drive mechanism was dispatched by John van der Sluis immediately. Air Post takes an unpredictable amount of time, and John tells me that future shipping will use UPS, in spite of the increased cost. This evening I installed the replacement mechanism, which really takes less time to do than to write about it.

    Why a Philips CD753? Well, across the pond, it was/is a fairly ubiquitous model, available at a not very princely sum. More importantly, it uses the highly regarded Philips CDM12 mechanism.

    And, you're thinking, why should that be at all significant? Well, the various versions of the CDM12 are used in a variety of players, including the Metronome Technologie, the Sonic Frontiers SFT1, Tag Mclaren CDT20R, the Audio Aero Capitole, the Marantz CD-63, the Quad 77, the Cambridge Audio CD4SE, and of course, the AH! Tjoeb players, based as they are on Marantz mechanisms. (Marantz is owned by Philips).

    Why are the Philips CDM12 variants found in such a range of players? Well, basically, because at relatively reasonable cost it does one of the best jobs of resonance control of a moderate cost mechanism- and with a little work, is capable of some very respectable performance. This is why so many use it as a starting point, including Hawk Audio.

    So, here I am tonight, sipping a little rum, and wondering how to plausibly compare it to a Sony SCD777ES used just as a transport, without having everyone fall laughing out of their seats. :LOL:

    Well, actually, as long as I'm not bothered with any liability suits from the barristers among you, I don't care if you fall laughing out of your chairs. Because I'm listening to the Hawk transport, and you're not.

    The Hawk definitely has a different presentation from the Sony. To make sure the playing field is as level as possible, I've connected them with nearly identical custom made cables, excepting that the transport termination for the APN unit is BNC, while for the Sony it must be RCA. Both are being played through the customized MP DAC I built the end of last year. See this thread for more info.



    I still owe a more complete writeup on this, but I wanted to do that after evaulating this modded transport also- so that will be forthcoming *after* I return from my business trip all next week.

    System is my usual pile of odds and ends, Ayre V-5 NLFB amplifier, passive preamp with Shallco attenuators, custom interconnects and speaker cables using a variety of Cardas, AudioQuest, Kimber and WBT components, and with the Mk II versions of the M8 "bookshelf" project speaker (Eton 8-800 woofers and Accuton tweeters).

    Now first off, what's noticeable is the difference in presence region and top end. The last tweak I'd made to the Mk II M8 speaker, lowering the tweeter level slightly, had tamed the upper end, but rendered it a little dark overall in tonal balance; I'd even been considering restoring it to the last voicing. I've been listening to these speakers again quite a bit since delivering the Mk III M8 (M8z woofer, Focal Tc120dx2) to my ladyfriend last weekend. Today, I listened to my recent favorite platter, Jonatha Brooke's "Grace in Gravity" more than a few times. I spun it again tonight, and the slight darkness of the M8 MkII's seemed to vanish, while the high end, if anything, became a tad smoother, yet losing no detail; not effacing, just better integrated with everything else. (maybe this is what lower jitter sounds like, hmmm?) Playing some of the cuts with agressive acoustic guitar (Jonatha is sort of an "Alt Folk" type of gal), a little of the grit in the chord attacks seemed focussed into a more natural transient attack.

    After going through the whole album, and really enjoying the last couple of acapella cuts, which are real showcases for her voice, with multi-tracked vocals, I decided to spin the new (relatively) Strunz and Farah, "Stringweave". Was I hearing a little more focus and impact on the string bass and lower frequency percussion, or was it just that I was mellowing out from sipping a little brandy? Was there better integration of the attack and skin tone of the Middle Eastern drums they use, or was it just the lack of fatigue I felt listening to the cuts, even when cranked up a little more than usual? And what about those cymbal strokes, and they way the decay seems audible a little longer into the background? Could it merely be my relief at it being the weekend, and the nice dinner I had tonight? One thinks that's not the right explanation.

    Am I being fair, here, comparing an introduced at $3500, reduced to $2500 50 lb. Sony transport to a ~$600 transport built on a midrange Philips player? Of course not. After all, the Sony has several hundred hours of breakin, and the APN Hawk transport was just turned on tonight for real listening. But who am I being unfair to?

    Now, where do I put the Sony SCD777ES- perhaps in the bedroom? Why not- I can always get another APN DAC kit to build and use with it.

    Perhaps I should have postponed this writeup until the last day of this month. Then you'd really be scratching your head when you read it, but figure it was all just a joke, in the end. That would make life a lot simpler and more predictable, but for better or worse, life isn't so simple and predictable. It's a little weird at times, and a little wonderful.

    Have a great weekend, folks.


    Best regards,

    Jon




    Earth First!
    _______________________________
    We'll screw up the other planets later....
    the AudioWorx
    Natalie P
    M8ta
    Modula Neo DCC
    Modula MT XE
    Modula Xtreme
    Isiris
    Wavecor Ardent

    SMJ
    Minerva Monitor
    Calliope
    Ardent D

    In Development...
    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
    Obi-Wan
    Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
    Modula PWB
    Calliope CC Supreme
    Natalie P Ultra
    Natalie P Supreme
    Janus BP1 Sub


    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
    Just ask Mr. Ohm....
  • Lex
    Moderator Emeritus
    • Apr 2001
    • 27461

    #2
    Jon, are you saying a redbook player may have bested your SACD player? If so, maybe you should check the proof on that Brandy, lol. I never thought I would hear it.

    Really, mostly all I can say is where do you find the time, let alone the money for all these projects, lol. I do second the notion that redbook can be pretty dang good. My standard modless Rega Jupiter never ceases to amaze me with it's presentation. In short, I love that player.

    Goodluck with your next, hopefully sober listening session.

    Lex
    Doug
    "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

    Comment

    • JonMarsh
      Mad Max Moderator
      • Aug 2000
      • 15302

      #3

      So, here I am tonight, sipping a little rum, and wondering how to plausibly compare it to a Sony SCD777ES used just as a transport, without having everyone fall laughing out of their seats.

      To make sure the playing field is as level as possible, I've connected them with nearly identical custom made cables, excepting that the transport termination for the APN unit is BNC, while for the Sony it must be RCA. Both are being played through the customized MP DAC I built the end of last year. See this thread for more info.
      I know my writing style for this post was a bit casual, but I thought I was fairly straightforward about what I was doing.

      The Sony SCD777ES and the modified Philips CD-753 were compared as transports, connected to the custom built APN MP-DAC. The MP-DAC, which I've described in the thread I referenced, is my current reference for CD "Redbook" playback. It uses a Crystal Semiconductor receiver and the CS4390 24 bit DAC, with a passive analog recontruction filter and a NLFB solid state output stage (Non Loop Feedback- ie, no opamps) In last night's listening, I was using both the Sony, and the CD-753, connected thorugh nearly identical cables (made specificially to eliminate cables as much as possible as a variable; the only difference being the necessity to accomodate an RCA at the transport end when connecting the Sony, while the other connections are BNC, owing to the connectors used.

      In my mind there's no doubt that SACD is a higher resolution format than CD. In the case of Sony players, the same digital to analog converters and output filters and ampflifiers are employed for CD and SACD playback after the Sony VC24 DSP completes oversampling and digitial filtering and conversion to DSD at 2.8 MHz. SACD of dual layer disks is more natural and better sounding than the CD layer, which is made by taking the DSD master and downconverting with Sony's latest SBM system.

      This raises some interesting questions- since CD from these players is good, but not state of the art (many factors at work here; power bypass and regulation, use of many opamp filter stages, possibly clock jitter at different points in the unit, etc.), it necessarily follows that the SACD implementation is similarly flawed. How good would SACD be with these problems addressed?

      Sony's DSD converter is claimed (by Sony) to have a packet based architecture which minimizes the problems resulting from timing jitter in the clocked signal - but so does the 24 bit Crystal CD4390 DAC used in the heart of the MP-DAC (which also is a delta-sigma oversampling converter, running at 128X.) This is especially important for an outboard DAC, which must rely on clock reconstruction from the SPDIF signal, and can't use a master clock which can be distributed throughout a one piece CD or SACD player. 8)

      As to my listening session, I'm sure I would have passed a local sobriety evaluation by Livermore's finest, re California's 0.08 blood alcohol requirement.

      Well, maybe it seems like I'm throwing a lot of money around on these projects, but sometimes they're in progress for some time- when they come to fruition is when I generally "report". And both the APN DAC kit and the modded CD-753 are bargains- true high end sound on a budget, without the tweakiness or erratic behavior of some faddish units, like the ART DIO converter. There isn't a one piece player at anything close to this price I've listened to which compares with this combination. And for a change, I don't have to wait for the interminable TOC loading of the Sony!





      APN Hawk Audio


      Best regards,

      Jon




      Earth First!
      _______________________________
      We'll screw up the other planets later....
      the AudioWorx
      Natalie P
      M8ta
      Modula Neo DCC
      Modula MT XE
      Modula Xtreme
      Isiris
      Wavecor Ardent

      SMJ
      Minerva Monitor
      Calliope
      Ardent D

      In Development...
      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
      Obi-Wan
      Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
      Modula PWB
      Calliope CC Supreme
      Natalie P Ultra
      Natalie P Supreme
      Janus BP1 Sub


      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

      Comment

      • Andrew Pratt
        Moderator Emeritus
        • Aug 2000
        • 16507

        #4
        Very interesting read Jon...makes me realize I desperatly need to find a better transport for my CD's. How difficult would it be for you to mod one of the cheaper SACD players into something outstanding?




        Comment

        • JonMarsh
          Mad Max Moderator
          • Aug 2000
          • 15302

          #5
          That's an interesting question, Andrew. It would take some investigation, because one of the sticky issues with less expensive players is is the mechanical system. If you don't have a good starting basis, you don't have anything to build on.

          Currently I'm contemplating what might be possible for my Sony XA7ES player, which is just back from service with a new laser assembly. But that's not a "budget" unit at all; it's big strength is the mechanical quality- it should be, with an original MSRP of $3K.

          It is remarkable what APN has done with the Philips CD-753; you can buy the "stock" player for 179 Euros from Amazon.de. The modified player from APN is about three times that- which is not at all unreasonable, considering the work which is done on it. With a different starting mechanism than the Philips, you'd be wasting your time, though, on a player in this price range.

          Regards,

          Jon




          Earth First!
          _______________________________
          We'll screw up the other planets later....
          the AudioWorx
          Natalie P
          M8ta
          Modula Neo DCC
          Modula MT XE
          Modula Xtreme
          Isiris
          Wavecor Ardent

          SMJ
          Minerva Monitor
          Calliope
          Ardent D

          In Development...
          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
          Obi-Wan
          Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
          Modula PWB
          Calliope CC Supreme
          Natalie P Ultra
          Natalie P Supreme
          Janus BP1 Sub


          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

          Comment

          • Andrew Pratt
            Moderator Emeritus
            • Aug 2000
            • 16507

            #6
            So basically for SACD I'm looking at something at least as good as the 222ES as a resonalbe entry point? Do you know if the Sony SACD players have volume control? If so how clean is it b/c given that my TA-E9000ES doesn't have analog bypass I was wondering about connecting the SACD player directly to my Musical Fidelity amp...(leaving the TA-E connected to its other line level inputs)




            Comment

            • johnrtd
              Junior Member
              • Mar 2002
              • 1

              #7
              Jon thanks for your comments! We did a hell of a job on the DAC and in the end found a lot of drives, including for instance the top drive (P-2) from Teac to suffer from serious jitter trouble.
              Then Philips introduced the CDM-12 transport and the mechanical part of that one is really amazing; simple but very efficient.
              While we were busy on the DAC design we discovered that a lot of capacitors are not capable to suppress HF-interference on the supply lines. The result then is that various circuits introduce delayed (!) clock signals to each other! In that way there's a serious source of jittering.
              The drive you obtained is altered in a way to suppress those delayed clock signals from the supply connections, and it's done so quite near the consuming digital circuits in order to keep the "loop" as small as possible.
              The result is amazing when compared with some other high end drives.
              At present it's our intention to develop a better SA-player and a suitable 6-channel amplifier. SA is going to be one of the best ways to reproduce music outperforming (at last) the classic analogue disc.
              It's a pity though you didn't use our digital interconnect and I surely hope you'll once will listen to our amps.
              John (www.audio.nl)

              Comment

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