Recovering the front soundstage.

**JonMarsh** · 01 October 2001, 11:14 Monday

Hi John,

Good to see you "back"!

Your tale is familiar- the culprit, of course, being early reflections from the RPTV, from sound from your speakers.

How do you have your ribbons and woofers set up? I think the basic problem most people run into, is they're unable or unwilling to locate speakers optimally for imaging and frequency response- even a slim tower or stand mounted bookshelf commands a lot of space when you consider both boundary load interactions and the need to avoid early reflections near the speaker. Most folks just aren't able or willing to devote the space required by a layout such as George Cardas recommends, but the unalterable truth is, that's what really works.

So what are you running for "entry level" FPTV?

Regards,

Jon

Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....

**Markj** · 01 October 2001, 12:55 Monday

I have my ribbons out in front of my TV and it does make a huge difference. I know if I move my speakers even farther the sound stage would increase but so would my chances of a divorce.

Getting a FP would be a great compromise.

John tell us what FP you are using!!

**Andrew Pratt** · 01 October 2001, 14:14 Monday

I like your logic mark I'll have to try that with my wife...doubt she'll see it our way but guess its worth a try

**Lex** · 02 October 2001, 19:32 Tuesday

Sounds like a good thing for sure. I have an RPTV, and the other day JerryW pointed out to me that I had my speakers toed in to heavily. I simply changed my toe in to less, and did not move the speakers further out, and my daughter tripped over a stone first thing. I couldn't imagine she was cutting the corner so close that a little less toe in made her do that, but it did. Problem is my speakers out front creates a turn from the hallway.

Welcome back John, wherever you been.

Lex

**John Kotches** · 02 October 2001, 23:50 Tuesday

Well now that I can get back to the HT Guide,
it's the "infamous" NEC LT-150, using the short term projection screen... Otherwise known as a white bed sheet.

I posted a shot or two from the first evening (ignore the bizarre geometry issues which I fixed!) at this page http://www.mindspring.com/~kotches/my-system/nec-lt-150

The Stewart filmscreen is on order, and should ship to me next Tuesday.

Now to build a hushbox, as it's a noisy sucker!

Due to the geometry of the room, I was never able to get the speakers out enough into the room to kill the TVs effects. In addition, I loathed the "voices on high" effect that the CC had while perched atop the RPTV.

So yes, some experimentation, but in the end, I missed my front Soundstage

Regards,

The

---
Editor, PC/Home Theater
Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity
My Home Theater
NEC LT-150 specific page.

**Markj** · 03 October 2001, 10:35 Wednesday

Andrew, good luck with your wife. My wife knows that a FP is in the future, hopefully not to far into the future.

Lex, hope your daughter is OK. Brings new meaning to toe in.

John great pictures for being on a bed sheet, is the screen going to be a greyhawk?

**John Kotches** · 03 October 2001, 13:50 Wednesday

Mark,

I discussed this with several individuals (Stacey and Don from Secrets, a technical editor from a Print Mag, and a retailer or two) and the consensus was that the Greyhawk (negative reports from AVS Forum were taken into consideration) would be the best overall solution.

I'm not throwing an extremely long distance (about 9' for the 84" diagonal screen I'm purchasing) so the increased contrast available with the Greyhawk would be useful, given that this is a fairly bright projector.

I do notice some issues with black levels and lack of shadow details on the white sheet, which is probably about 1.1 gain. Hopefully the Greyhawk's less than unity gain (.95 on my screen) will improve black levels, while sacrificing some overall light output.

Regards,

---
Editor, PC/Home Theater
Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity
My Home Theater
NEC LT-150 specific page.

**Markj** · 03 October 2001, 14:51 Wednesday

John thanks for the info!

From your discussions with several individuals was price any part of the conversation? I mean you have a ~$2300 projector and I am not sure how much a greyhawk is but I think it is over the price of the projector. I was wondering if this makes since for others to consider. I guess benefits could out weigh the cost.

With your sheet do you see rainbow? I have read that lt 150 can have a problem with this.

Thanks

**George Bellefontaine** · 03 October 2001, 15:20 Wednesday

Hey,John-
Welcome to front projection. I have never seen a demo of the LT150 but it's certainly got a reputation for a good picture at a small price.I have a Sony VPL400 lcd projector and blacks are not crt blacks, but with careful tweaking of any digital display, you can get fairly acceptable black levels.

My Homepage!

**John Kotches** · 03 October 2001, 16:27 Wednesday

Mark,

Price (for me) is always a consideration, I don't have an unlimited budget! The cost of any FP screen is a function of the viewable surface area. The size that fits the space is an 84" diagonal, in a 4:3 aspect ratio. The list price for this screen is US$1390. Stacey just ordered an 82" diagonal 16:9 aspect ratio Greyhawk screen for his new home and it listed for about US$1230 or so.

I could have opted for a less expensive Da-Lite or Vutec at about 1/3 to 1/2 the price, but decided that it was worth it in the long run to exceed my budget due to the reputation of Stewart, and the spectacular results I've seen on several Greyhawks with LCD and DLP projectors.

Keep in mind, that the screen will outlast this projector, and in all likelihood the LT-150s successor. Yeah, I'm already thinking about the NEXT projector, I wouldn't be admitted to the reviewer fraternity if that weren't the case

I won't be moving in the next 3-5 years, so I felt this was a good investment.

In reponse to Rainbows, to paraphrase a pretty good line from a film...

"I see Rainbows. Everywhere. Some of them don't even know they're Rainbows". I think that some of this is a function of the gain, and it will be reduced with the Greyhawk. I see them mostly on rapid panning effects, or on scenes with a fair amount of white in them. This is exacerbated by head movement in any direction.

Not everyone is sensitive to the Rainbow effect, but I am. Even so, I can live with this... I bought the LT-150 used from a private individual and knew this was a potential issue going in.

Regards,

---
Editor, PC/Home Theater
Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity
My Home Theater
NEC LT-150 specific page.

**John Kotches** · 03 October 2001, 16:31 Wednesday

George,

Thanks for the advice, if I'm lucky once I get the real screen in I'll get some help from an ISF trained friend who's relocating and probably crashing at my place for a night or two during his move. That should get things tuned about as good as it can get for the near term!

In the last few months I've learned a lot about video.... The Greyhawk (or any other negative gain screen) trades brightness for contrast. As such, it isn't appropriate for lower light output projectors, such as the typical CRT projector. It excels on projectors with > 600 or so ANSI lumens according to the folks at Stewart. Hopefully I'll see some of those increases with the Greyhawk.

As an aside, our Editor-in-Chief has asked me to chronicle the experience, so I have to take some "ugly shots" of the screen (errr sheet) taped to the mantle to show how things started, and how they'll end up. This will be a review / article and should be a lot of fun along the way.

That reminds me, I need to get a shot of my "el cheapo" ceiling mount too!

Maybe we should move this to the video area. This was really intended to discuss the audio improvements, but like any good topic digresses on a relavent tangent.

Regards,

---
Editor, PC/Home Theater
Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity
My Home Theater
NEC LT-150 specific page.

**George Bellefontaine** · 10 October 2001, 13:33 Wednesday

John-
Perhaps after you have the LT150 tuned up and everything else the way you want it, you will post your comments on the picture, and whatnot, over in the VIDEO section.
regards,
George

My Homepage!

**John Kotches** · 10 October 2001, 22:50 Wednesday

Indeed I will.

The Stewart Filmscreen arrived one week earlier than planned (Monday) and yesterday (Tuesday) I finally got the beastie physically installed.

Lesson for those that think they can install the screen without assistance, get help

:

I have a few preliminary shots in my personal web space, http://www.mindspring.com/~kotches/my-system/nec-lt-150 . Sadly the camera is obscuring the differences between the two.

---
Editor, PC/Home Theater
Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity
My Home Theater
NEC LT-150 specific page.

**Markj** · 11 October 2001, 10:38 Thursday

The bed sheet doesn’t do too bad of a job. From these pictures it looks like the Greyhawk is darker. Mr. Walsh’s shirt looks white on the bed sheet but green on the Greyhawk. I suppose this could be the camera. The bottom line is that is an awesome picture you have.

The second picture of your new screen has some very interesting speakers in it. Are those some test speakers that you are reviewing and can you talk about them? Just looking at that picture I have some major envy and it would just get worse if I could hear them. Great looking system.

**George Bellefontaine** · 11 October 2001, 12:52 Thursday

John-
You're right when you say you need help to install a screen. I was using manual pulldowns at first and later went to a fixed 16:9 wall screen- it's a Da-Lite Damat 1 gain. My wife, God love her, was my helper, and she had to put up with a lot of cursing and swearing at times. But it was all worth it.
BTW, nice looking pics so far.

My Homepage!

Recovering the front soundstage.

Recovering the front soundstage.

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