Dedicated listening: newbie

[Mark C.]

OK, I'm new here and need some advice. I'm looking into establishing a 2-channel setup separate from my home theater. I want to build around B&W Nautilus 804s. First question: what are plusses and minuses of using integrated amp, such as a used Classe CAP-151 or Acurus DIA 150? Second question: same as first question applied to a separate amp and preamp setup. Third question: I would like to include a sub in the setup, using R/L preouts. Do integrated amps offer such features? Finally, I'm not interested in vinyl, so I'm looking only for a quality CD player, like B stock Parasound CDP 1000 at Audio Advisor. Trying to stay under $500 on the player. Any other suggestions in that price range? Thanks. I'm looking forward to responses.

[MichaelW]

Mark,

Welcome. Let me see if I can answer some of your questions.

First question: what are plusses and minuses of using integrated amp, such as a used Classe CAP-151 or Acurus DIA 150?

I would say that the pluses of using an integrated amp are less cabling needed and some of the integrated units use a passive preamp which can mean fewer parts in the signal path.

I would say that there aren't really any minuses unless the unit does not have preamp outputs. In this case, you won't be able to use a seperate amp if you chose later to upgrade to a different amp.

I can't comment specifically on the Classe or Acurus preamps.

Second question: same as first question applied to a separate amp and preamp setup.

The pluses here are more flexibility in choosing the combination of preamp and amp. Synergy here is the name of the game.

The minus here is that you need extra cabling.

Third question: I would like to include a sub in the setup, using R/L preouts. Do integrated amps offer such features?

If the integrated amp comes with preamp outputs then you are set. If not, then just run the speaker outputs to the subwoofer high pass filter on the subwoofer. Some preamps come with two sets of preamp outputs that can be used for a subwoofer or doing biamping.

I would also suggest that you look into some tube gear if possible. You could do a tube preamp and a solid state amp or better yet a tube preamp and a tube amp. There are some tube integrated units as well. Explore all your possibilities before you settle on what sounds best.

[ThomasW]

The integrated amp question is not a questions of comparing equals. The Classe' is a high-end equipment at a premium price. Acurus is the "economy" line from Mondial. The high-end equipment from Mondial is the Aragon line. This is a better direct comparison to Classe'

Neither of these units have a "phono" section.

DIA 150, this unit is not really an integrated amp. It's actually a power amp, with a "passive" preamp grafted to the top. There are no active electronics in the "pre-amp" It's simply manual switches and a volume control.

Both of these are actually "overpowered" for your speakers (not necessarily a bad thing!).

The Classe' unit as pre outs, The DIA does not. So if you are going to use a sub with either, you need a one with a built-in crossover, or use a stand alone external crossover.

Something to also consider might be the Aragon 8002 power amp. Althought rated at 125 watts/channel, this is a very high current and will easily power your B&W to very loud levels. This amp is truly an entry level high-end amp. and the price is modest $1500. It can be fed directally with variable CD output. You can combine it with a preamp of your choice. Or combine the Marchand PR41 and the Aragon 8002 will create the same functionality as the DIA 150. And will offer significantly better sound, and will be the same price as the CAP-151. You must however be willing to live without a remote!

The only "low-end" CD player I recomend is the Sony XA20-ES, now dicsontinued they are sometimes available at the Sony outlet stores for $350. They have the same "fixed laser" mechanism as the $3500 SACD players

The +'s of integrated units are cost savings and fewer pieces of equipment. The -'s are lack of easy upgradability, and more "parts". If you are going to be in audio for "the long term" I strongly suggest complete separates. This although initially more expensive, it is much more upgrade friendly, and flexible.

One additional point. We call it "the stuff is stuff test". This means all other things being equal, chose the piece of equipment that has the most weight. For example, both the units you ask about weigh about 35 lbs and offer 200 watts/channel . If you look at the Aragon 8002 125watts/channel, it weighs 50 lbs. Why does it weigh almost 50% more, but cost the same as the DIA-150? So which do you think is better?

Here are links to all the products discussed.

http://www.mondialdesigns.com

http://www.classeaudio.com/amps/integrat/cap151.htm

http://www.marchandelec.com/pr41.htm

theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[JonMarsh]

There are several "integrateds" which follow the passive preamp + power amp forumula in one box. However, I'm very inclined to second Thomas's second suggestions, for separates, particularly the Marchand PR41 + Aragon 8002 combo. With a little shopping, you may be able to get 10 to 20% off the MSRP of the Aragon unit. The PR41 comes as close to having no sound of it's own as any component i've heard- and I've gone through quite a few active preamps, including several big buck commercial ones, and have built my own with pure discrete high speed low noise amps, and have had a tube preamp, also.
The Aragon 8002 and 8008 are very clean, have very low output impedance over the full audio band, and control ported speakers like your B&W's very well. I've used them on occasion in developing speakers, and the only thing you have to be careful about is that they stay so graceful even with difficult loads, than you can design a passive crossover that does some interesting things, sounds great with the Aragon, and is a bit nasty for a "conventional" amp to drive. Even my nominally 4 ohm X1 clones are problematic in that regard, though I took a lot of care to try to avoid it- when speakers dip to 3 ohms or less, many amps get unhappy. Not the Aragons. Of couse, big Krells and Levinsons have that quality also, but not at the pricepoint of Aragons. Recommended.

-Jon

P.S. I design and build my own amps, too (MOSFET, very low output impedance through compound class A plus AB output stage), so I don't usually go out of my way to listen to or recommend commercial amps.




Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....

[Crimson]

A friend of mine recently picked up an integrated by Audio Refinement (owned by YBA) called The Complete. List is $995. Very nice piece and he's using it to run a pair of N804's also. Might want to give it a listen.




Q.

[Lexman]

Mark, there's you some excellent responses, we only hope your still "listening".

I definitely agree that Classe' when compared to Acurus, is probably in a class by itself. It's very well built, quality gear. The Acurus I have seen, didn't compare.

It's difficult to do better than seperates, but often times, it just doesn't make as good a end result economically, space wise, or cabling wise to do so. Please, whatever route you choose, remember this rule- Audition, Audition, Audition! Don't buy a piece of gear you cannot return either if your not satisfied. Home auditions with your own gear is best.

Lex





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[Mark C.]

Thanks for your suggestions, all of you. Let the auditions begin!