Phono pre-amp question...

[kpodolski]

Generally speaking, is it better to have an external phono pre-amp closer to the turntable or closer to the amp?

I ask because I'm going to be putting a turntable into my main room in the near future. I have an integrated tube amp that will be about 15 feet away as the wire runs.

[audioqueso]

Closer to the turntable.

[wkhanna]

Agreed.

Without getting into great detail, in most cases it would most likely be better to have the phono pre connections from the turn table as short as possible due to the V low (typically < 5 mV) signal.

As Always, JMHO YMMV

[Bob]

Absolutely, short.

[madmac]

Yep...closer to the turntable.....

[Victor]

Generally speaking, is it better to have an external phono pre-amp closer to the turntable or closer to the amp?

You can put it in the next room if you so desire. If you do that you will certainly measure a 2 ...even 4 times increase in noise, but you will never be able to hear it.

The reality of turn-tables, including a mega-buck deals, is that its S/N is at best around 45 dB, so it is already pretty dismal relative to your 15 year old hand-held portable CD-player from Radio Shack.

I am not suggesting that a CD-player is superior in any way sound wise, but I am saying that adding a little bit of noise to an already noisy system by any modern standard will unlikely poison your listening experience. Good luck.

[kpodolski]

Thanks for all of the advice guys!

Now I just need to find a phono stage. Solid state or tube, that is the question......

[Victor]

try this

http://www.marchandelec.com/ln106.html

for $295 it is impossible to beat. You can spend 5-8 times that and get an inferior product. It is not sexy, nor it is very popular, mostly due to its packaging, power supply and overall DIY look, but it will work very well.

You can also specify a better power supply if you want, but I doubt that you will hear a substantive improvement, - though you will get a better engineered product if that matters to you.

[wkhanna]

While I have not had the opportunity to hear the Marchand phono-pre, I do know their products are V well engineered and their attenuators are some of the best available.

[wkhanna]

......but I am saying that adding a little bit of noise to an already noisy system by any modern standard will unlikely poison your listening experience. Good luck.

Victor makes a great point here.

Sometimes we get far too carried away with the tiny little details and act as though we all have $100K systems.


The performance of today’s consumer electronics are exponentially better than those from years ago when many of the ‘golden rules’ were chiseled into the lexicon of HiFi audio in terms of noise rejection and S/N ratios.


For example, I run a $15, fifty foot RCA interconnect I got at Parts Express from my A/V-pre to a meager 20 year old integrated amp in my kitchen. This unit powers a small set of Advent bookshelf’s for the kitchen and another set of speakers on our porch. This allows me to here any signal from my main system (vinyl, SeeDee, etc) at the other locations. The performance is by far not ‘audiophile’ in quality, but considering the all the ridiculous lengths and added connections, I can’t say that noise has ever been a problem. In fact the sound quality is more than adequate for ambient fill and in fact is down right pleasant, given realistic expectation.

[Bob]

I think victor was saying that vinyl is noisy so what difference does it make what you do cable wise.

[Johnloudb]

You can put it in the next room if you so desire. If you do that you will certainly measure a 2 ...even 4 times increase in noise, but you will never be able to hear it.

Hi victor, I think after it's amplified 40 - 60dB by the phonopreamp, you'll probably hear it.

Also, it's important to have the option to ground turntable tonearm to the phono preamp, as this can often solve bad noise problems. I had this experience.

The reality of turn-tables, including a mega-buck deals, is that its S/N is at best around 45 dB, so it is already pretty dismal relative to your 15 year old hand-held portable CD-player from Radio Shack.

That's only true for the lower frequencies. In the higher frequencies the dynamic range of LP betters the CD. In fact this gradual reduction in noise with increasing in frequency is a much more pleasant to the ears than flat, white noise.

[wkhanna]

I think victor was saying that vinyl is noisy so what difference does it make what you do cable wise.

Don't pay attention to me.....

I'm just a senile curmudgeon.

Now where did I put that effen ON switch?!?

[Victor]

Hi victor, I think after it's amplified 40 - 60dB by the phonopreamp, you'll probably hear it.

You may hear ...or not. Hard to say really. The thing is this, - it depends how this is done. The pick up system is inherently differential, so it would make sense to actually use balanced electronics to amplify the few mvolts available. Well,- nobody I know does that, so a DIY approach is a way to go methinks if you want the best outcome possible.

With a true differential pre-amp, the noise will be negligible even with very long cables. Back to reality, - good engineering surely demands short cable runs with tiny signals and large gains. But I would still question if the noise is audible. I do not have much experience with phono stages, but what I know and heard, noise has not been a problem for me. Another thing, I seem to remember that the high gain is only at rather low frequencies, so perhaps this is the reason the noise is not an issue?

Still, my understanding is that with a low S/N to begin with any mild further signal degradation may not be an issue. One needs to try a long cable to see that for sure. I have not done that.

Also, it's important to have the option to ground turntable tonearm to the phono preamp, as this can often solve bad noise problems. I had this experience.

Very true. I think all phono pre-amps have this feature, as far as I remember.

That's only true for the lower frequencies. In the higher frequencies the dynamic range of LP betters the CD. In fact this gradual reduction in noise with increasing in frequency is a much more pleasant to the ears than flat, white noise.

You know, I heard that comment before, but I have never experienced that in practice. Perhaps I do not understand this, but I just do not see how a system with at most 12 bits resolution, can have a greater dynamic range then a system with at least 16-bit resolution. The noise floor of a LP will be a limiting factor in any dynamic range calculation.

Indeed there is a gradual reduction in noise as frequency increases, - this has to do with an LP equalization curve, but the noise is still much higher at any frequency here relative to a CD. I agree that the noise spectrum of a CD is rather flat, but I think this is a good thing. No matter, how I think about it, my take on this will be, - let's keep the noise to a minimum no matter what frequency it is.

In principle, we may discuss the possibility that 'one' noise is more audibly pleasing than the 'other' noise, but I would hate to have any noise at all, regardless of what it is.

[Bob]

Irregardless of the endless debate about analog vs. digital and which has the better potential. And remember, potential, which seldom has anything to do with reality. Each of us need only concern ourselves with what is the most fun experience for us as an individual.
We all have heard a cd and we all have heard a record play and most have heard a digital computer based system. To try and convince each other what is best is such a waste of time. It is a hopeless as trying to convince a audiophile that loves tube gear that he should have solid state because, " tubes have distortion". Oh hum, that's nice. Tube people have heard solid state and don't care for it, solid state people have heard tubes and don't care for it. Wish people would be more inclined to uplift people with a different opinion than themselves rather than feeling the need to convince other people that they must have the same thoughts as themselves.

[Johnloudb]

Wish people would be more inclined to uplift people with a different opinion than themselves rather than feeling the need to convince other people that they must have the same thoughts as themselves.

Hi Bob, it's not like that all. Victor and others are perfectly welcome their opinions. Victor and I are just discussing technical details and opinions on these formats. I very much respect Victor and enjoy his posts. He's a great contributor here and I've learned a lot from his posts.

I think he paints with a broad brush in dissing the LP though.

Very true. I think all phono pre-amps have this feature, as far as I remember.

Yes, but my point was you wouldn't want that connecting wire to be long and pinking up noise. At least I wouldn't.

You know, I heard that comment before, but I have never experienced that in practice. Perhaps I do not understand this, but I just do not see how a system with at most 12 bits resolution, can have a greater dynamic range then a system with at least 16-bit resolution. The noise floor of a LP will be a limiting factor in any dynamic range calculation.

Okay, but this author measured different.

LP Dynamic Range

In my subjective experience, even low noise in systems is very audible and the quality of noise is very important. Most people find white noise fatiguing, but find pink noise that decreases with increasing frequency (1/f) much more pleasant.

I feel both formats have different advantages. Like bob says it's a matter of preference.

John

[Bob]

You are right John. I will zip it