2 Channel Integrated Amp vs. Preamp/Amp

[ClosetSciFiGeek]

Making plans for a two-channel room upstairs. The speakers are going to be ML-TL's based on dlr's Chameleons, but with the newer SB Acoustics tweeter(as the old one is discontinued). I am considering what I am going to buy as Preamp/Amp. I am going to use my Pro-Ject Debut III(with a moving magnet cartridge) and Emotiva ERC-1(hopefully through Emotiva's new XDA-1 DAC when it is released).

I am considering an integrated amplifier with moving magnet phono preamp built in. Anybody really happy with theirs? How would this compare to say an Emotiva USP-1(or XSP-1 when released) and a UPA-2(or 2 UPA-1s)?

Thanks for your opinions.

[Burke Strickland]

A "built-in" moving magnet phono preamp is always a compromise for convenience and cost versus a stand-alone, purpose-built phono preamp. But that doesn't necessarily mean the stand-alone is the right choice. Budget and frequency of use (typically "low" for either or both) can mitigate the performance hit typically experienced with the built-in phono preamp compared to a high quality stand-alone phono preamp.

Also needing to be factored in would be the other components in the system. For example, it would not make sense to buy a $2,500 phono preamp (or probably even a $700 one) for a system that otherwise costs $1,500 in its entirety.

Also, I would trust a built-in phono preamp in a name brand integrated amp for both sound quality and reliability far more than a "cheapie" stand-alone on sale for $12 - $50 on eBay.

I have had a built-in phono preamp in an integrated amp that was quite satisfactory for non-critical listening (but then why play vinyl instead of a far more convenient CD unless the album is only availabe to me on vinyl). However, I felt the step up to a stand alone phono preamp was way more than justified for more serious listening on a Rega P-3 turntable with Grado Platinum cartridge, Lehman Black Box phono preamp feeding Bryston SP-2 pre/pro (which has an analog two channel preamp section reportedly equivalent to their BP-25 two channel preamp).

Like so many other decisions in this hobby, it really gets down to what each alternative is worth to you -- how much time you would plan to use the equipment (and what other equipment it will work with) and how much you feel you can afford to spend to maximize your enjoyment of that time versus other uses for the time and money.

If it helps simplify the decision making, it is far better to plug the turntable into a phono preamp built into an integrated amp and listen to your records than to let the turntable and album collection sit idle!

[dyazdani]

I've experienced good luck with a couple of levels of integrated amps. My dad used to run a pari of older KEF 104.2 through a Jolida integrated, sounded very nice in a cozy room.

He also recently scaled down his main 2ch system from B&W 802s run from a BAT VK-50SE and a Pass X-250 to Martin Logan SL3s (used to be mine) and a Pathos Logos integrated. The Pathos is a pretty high end piece, but it does VERY well.

I can't comment much on the phono-pre issue. I used to run a VPI Mk IV through a vintage Apt-Holman phono pre to my Levinson 333 amp, it did fine for what I needed. You could always start with a integrated/phono pre combo and go to a dedicated phono-pre if you found yourself utilizing the vinyl rig more.

As you know, you never stop the "upgraditis" ...

[Victor]

I have had a built-in phono preamp in an integrated amp that was quite satisfactory for non-critical listening (but then why play vinyl instead of a far more convenient CD unless the album is only availabe to me on vinyl). However, I felt the step up to a stand alone phono preamp was way more than justified for more serious listening on a Rega P-3 turntable with Grado Platinum cartridge, Lehman Black Box phono preamp feeding Bryston SP-2 pre/pro (which has an analog two channel preamp section reportedly equivalent to their BP-25 two channel preamp).

Like so many other decisions in this hobby, it really gets down to what each alternative is worth to you -- how much time you would plan to use the equipment (and what other equipment it will work with) and how much you feel you can afford to spend to maximize your enjoyment of that time versus other uses for the time and money.

If it helps simplify the decision making, it is far better to plug the turntable into a phono preamp built into an integrated amp and listen to your records than to let the turntable and album collection sit idle!

bryston phono preamplifier is a rather simple 2-stage inverting circuit. There is nothing special about it. It is not a low-noise design strictly speaking. In many ways it is not any better then a phono circuit found in many modern recievers. It does use discrete components only, but these days it is no longer a benefit it used to be. There are much better circuits out there for a lot less money. It does work well however.

Anyway, there is nothing wrong with an integrated solution these days. I say go for it.

[Johnloudb]

bryston phono preamplifier is a rather simple 2-stage inverting circuit. There is nothing special about it.

Hey Victor, haven't seen you post in some time. Good to see you back. Think you misread Burke's post. He doesn't use a Bryston phono preamp. He uses the Lehmann phono preamp.

Lehman Black Box phono preamp feeding Bryston SP-2 pre/pro

[alebonau]

really cant generalise about integrated vs 2c pre/amps. all comes down to the design and implementation, which will be quite different when comes down to specific units.

A lot of the uk amps, rega, musical fidelity, arcam etc have pretty decent phono stages built in. and have utilised the phono stage in some myself to good effect. same with pre's a few I know with very decent phono stages, eg the audio research sp16, and the musical fidelity a5cr, the mf pre I indeed used the phono stage built in. quite decent. wasnt till I upgraged to the audio research ph5 tube phono pre that took a jump up

In my experience the budget standalone units are about as good as what what most decent gear has built in. start spending up on the standalone phono pres and yeah sure can out do whats built in. And similarly with budget to say mid level TTs can easily get some pretty good results wiht built in phono stages.

as to commenting on specific units, something youd have to do some comparisons off to come to any conclusions

[Victor]

Hey Victor, haven't seen you post in some time. Good to see you back. Think you misread Burke's post. He doesn't use a Bryston phono preamp. He uses the Lehmann phono preamp.

Ye...I should party less and read more, but 'tis the season'....thanks for correcting me. True I have not posted in a while...been re-doing my electronics for a past year and it is still a work in progress,- seems it will never end. Anyway, happy holidays!

[Victor]

A lot of the uk amps, rega, musical fidelity, arcam etc have pretty decent phono stages built in. and have utilised the phono stage in some myself to good effect. same with pre's a few I know with very decent phono stages, eg the audio research sp16, and the musical fidelity a5cr, the mf pre I indeed used the phono stage built in. quite decent. wasnt till I upgraged to the audio research ph5 tube phono pre that took a jump up


as to commenting on specific units, something youd have to do some comparisons off to come to any conclusions

Well, I do not use a turntable, so no phono stage for me. My problem with phono is that I can't understand why spend the money for best possible electronics when the signal-to-noise of the best available turntable-lp combo is about 45 db?

You see, I can build a 20-bit capable phono stage, but why bother? With this in mind, any phono stage will do considering what is currently available. Let me put it this way, - it can be done for $20-40 in parts and it will 'sound' to you like thousands were spent. To wit, for instance, Bryston phono stage cost about $10 in parts and it works very well.

The money are better spent on a better turn table and the pick-up gizmo. Another thing to conceder, -tubes in this application might actually be transparent, as they will unlikely make things worst or better relative to the solid-state electronics.

Naturally, my opinion is strictly based on engineering principles and not on any subjective evaluation. I am not advocating subjective preferences here, I am stating the facts that can be mathematically proven, as I have no experience with using turn-tables or building phono stages.