What's the deal with "audiophiles" & their music?

[ricky_rocket]

I actually spent most of my music purchases on recapturing my audio youth. Hard to find Black Sabbath that doesn't sound like it was recorded/produced at the bottom of a swimming pool.

Yes it's a crying shame that some of the best music is recorded so poorly. Any Black Sab album is a great example. Led Zeppelin I and II are other examples. Maybe these were put on SACD or DVD-A and sound better.

However, I have to admit, now that I have a decent system I listen to POORLY RECORDED music less often - even though it's GREAT music. When I had a crap system I didn't seem to care.

Is the OP implying that audiophiles are snobs ?

[peterselby7]

Okay so the original thread was about why audiophiles only listen to a specific 'group' of albums and they are basically all the same. I think I can relate to this thought pattern.

I had a music system that was once prone to this problem. It only sounded good on really good recordings. If the album was recorded exquisitely then all was well. But if the recording was a bit 'off' it sounded terrible. I think their is some merit to buying a system that will sound well on the best recordings but it should also sound nice on poor recordings. You may still notice that the recording sucks but it still sounds like good music otherwise and it can be enjoyed. I got rid of that system and built a new one. Now my music has a much wider variety and I find myself looking for albums instead of speaker cables.

Maybe this is the problem? Some would call these revealing stereos transparent but my new system still sounds better than the old one even on the best recordings. Some speakers, amps, etc. are just better than others.

[2gumby2]

Okay so the original thread was about why audiophiles only listen to a specific 'group' of albums and they are basically all the same. I think I can relate to this thought pattern.

I had a music system that was once prone to this problem. It only sounded good on really good recordings. If the album was recorded exquisitely then all was well. But if the recording was a bit 'off' it sounded terrible. I think their is some merit to buying a system that will sound well on the best recordings but it should also sound nice on poor recordings. You may still notice that the recording sucks but it still sounds like good music otherwise and it can be enjoyed. I got rid of that system and built a new one. Now my music has a much wider variety and I find myself looking for albums instead of speaker cables.

Maybe this is the problem? Some would call these revealing stereos transparent but my new system still sounds better than the old one even on the best recordings. Some speakers, amps, etc. are just better than others.

This brings up a good point. IMO speakers make the biggest difference in this regard. Even in a poor system, a well recorded performance can still sound O.K. I've attended the Rocky Mountain Audio Festival (RMAF) several times over the past few years and I get to bring my demo CD to try in those high end speakers and equipment. I doubt that I could tell the difference between the electronic equipment, but speakers have a definite signature between brands and designs. I use ZZ Top Mescalero as my demo CD. Not because it is well recorded. It isn't. But it will bring out the short comings of speakers like no other recording I have found. When I had the Merlin and Linkwitz speaker reps play the ZZ Top they pulled it out after about 1 minute because their speakers sounded so bad. As long as they played "audiophile" recordings on their speakers they were fine, but they didn't do well with other recordings. On the other hand, some speakers like the Thiel, Vienna Acoustics, Odyssey Audio, Joseph Audio, Selah Audio, and the low-end Ushers sounded great no matter what recording was played. I ended up buying the Usher V-601 and Odyssey Audio Kismet speakers after hearing them at RMAF because I thought the price to performance ratio was exceptional. They sound good with any recording I have used with them.

[Chris D]

Interesting! I'll have to check out "Mescalero", then, based on your recommendation!

[Alaric]

Yes it's a crying shame that some of the best music is recorded so poorly. Any Black Sab album is a great example. Led Zeppelin I and II are other examples. Maybe these were put on SACD or DVD-A and sound better.

However, I have to admit, now that I have a decent system I listen to POORLY RECORDED music less often - even though it's GREAT music. When I had a crap system I didn't seem to care.

Is the OP implying that audiophiles are snobs ?

Led Zep CDs are one of my pet peeves. I have a MFSL LZ II (1970s) that has been beat near to death. Seems even Page can't remaster them to sound decent on lil plastic discs. My tube phono pre seems to do the best job on LZ for me. :T
For a really bad Black Sabbath album , try Never Say Die. The track 'Johnny Blade" sounds like my speakers are in another room. Sheesh. I still play it loud.

[jbreezy5]

Nice thread. Kinda made me open my eyes. I definitely get into the "upgraditis" mindset. Yet my wallet constrains me. I have to find a true deal to strive for sonic nirvana.

It seems some gear that is more resolute reveals too many warts and that's why many can't tolerate lesser recordings. I would be bored to death if I could only actually listen to a few recordings. Thankfully I don't feel my system causes that problem.

However, I particularly despise overly-compressed recordings that distort and distract from the music, like "Death Magnetic" by Metallica. I own it, but never listen to it. It's a shame b/c musically it's a good album. Yet I'm still addicted to "And Justice For All". Even though the recording is poor, its still listenable.

What's scary is I typically don't consider myself a huge jazz fan, but I've been getting into it more with recent upgrades. It makes me cringe to think I might become one of those jazz only audiophiles. :E

Anyway, nice reminder to be about the music.

-JBreezy-

[Kal Rubinson]

I use ZZ Top Mescalero as my demo CD. Not because it is well recorded. It isn't. But it will bring out the short comings of speakers like no other recording I have found. When I had the Merlin and Linkwitz speaker reps play the ZZ Top they pulled it out after about 1 minute because their speakers sounded so bad. As long as they played "audiophile" recordings on their speakers they were fine, but they didn't do well with other recordings. On the other hand, some speakers like the Thiel, Vienna Acoustics, Odyssey Audio, Joseph Audio, Selah Audio, and the low-end Ushers sounded great no matter what recording was played. I ended up buying the Usher V-601 and Odyssey Audio Kismet speakers after hearing them at RMAF because I thought the price to performance ratio was exceptional. They sound good with any recording I have used with them.

This brings up another issue. Bad recordings should sound bad in a good system but no worse than necessary. I am not an advocate of "audiophile music" but I would rather make the accommodation/adjustment myself than have the differences obscured by the equipment.

Speakers that sound "great with any recording" are likely imposing their particular coloration on those recordings or filtering the music such that one is hearing the speakers and not the recordings.

[ricky_rocket]

Led Zep CDs are one of my pet peeves. I have a MFSL LZ II (1970s) that has been beat near to death. Seems even Page can't remaster them to sound decent on lil plastic discs.

I think if the master tapes were not recorded well then it won't sound good in any format. The only thing they could really do to fix it is re-record the master tapes or the parts that don't sound good. Page could re-do the guitar parts, Plant's voice is too old now though - we're stuck with the originals on that one.

However, I particularly despise overly-compressed recordings that distort and distract from the music, like "Death Magnetic" by Metallica. I own it, but never listen to it. It's a shame b/c musically it's a good album. Yet I'm still addicted to "And Justice For All". Even though the recording is poor, its still listenable.

And Justice for All is very compressed and a poor recording. However itcame out in 1988 when cds were just getting rolling (I actually owned that one on cassette tape first). Also, Metallica didn't know how to record well until the Black Album. However, it's still great music.

Like you, I own and never listen to Death Magnetic. There's no excuse for that one not to sound good. Super Producer - Rick Rubin produced it and it was made recently. The only guess I have is - that is the sound they were going for.

[btf1980]

Haven't posted in a while. This thread sure took off!

I think we are looking at different things. I like music that is recorded well too. Who wouldn't? The point I was trying to illustrate was the narrow field MANY audiophiles lock themselves into with music. I'm not saying this is all, but it is many.

A lot of guys keep repeating the idea that lowkey female vocals are the hardest thing to reproduce accurately in audio. Really? Have you ever of Art Blakey & The Jazz Messengers? Listen to their rendition of A Night in Tunisia all the way through.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHKyVJ5YfNU

I don't expect it to be everyone's cup of tea, but with Lee Morgan screaming on the trumpet, riveting hard bop piano playing, Blakey's crazy drumming etc. You mean to tell me, Diana Krall softly cooing is harder to replicate accurately than a hard bop quintet playing at 100mph? Really?

I use this song & album as an example because it's one of the Music Matters 45rpm titles cut by Steve Hoffman & Kevin Gray. It does not get more "audiophile" than that. I have brought this lp to quite a few listening sessions because it's a blueprint of quality & it is a reference recording. Something audiophiles would love to test the dynamics of their system with, since they always talk about reference recordings. Without fail, when the needle hits the groove, you see the look of confusion on their faces. "What's that racket? This isn't Diana Krall??? Should we listen to this?"

I find that many are not comfortable stepping outside their comfort zones, and unless it is recommended music they will not. You will rarely hear this music playing at hifi conventions or shows because we as an industry have imposed rigid norms as our standard. It's always "Well, this is the music we know inside & out, so we test the gear on music we know." Fair enough, but why do we only know the same 5 artists & albums? There are a lot of well recorded albums out there, trust me. I own them! Most are not easy listening, light female vocals.

I also want to make it clear that this is not a disparaging attack on people who like artists like Diana Krall, Patricia Barber etc. So please don't misconstrue my point. I'm simply saying there is more. I pretty much stopped attending hifi shows & meets because a lot of the guys there are so insular when it comes to music, it's mind blowing. Many of them don't even know a big chunk of the songs from Krall's albums are jazz standards & have been done by just about everyone, and also released as "audiophile" records, but I digress.

I reiterate, this isn't everyone. These are just my anecdotal findings with many in the audiophile crowd. YMMV.

[JonMarsh]

Haven't posted in a while. This thread sure took off!


I also want to make it clear that this is not a disparaging attack on people who like artists like Diana Krall, Patricia Barber etc. So please don't misconstrue my point. I'm simply saying there is more. I pretty much stopped attending hifi shows & meets because a lot of the guys there are so insular when it comes to music, it's mind blowing. Many of them don't even know a big chunk of the songs from Krall's albums are jazz standards & have been done by just about everyone, and also released as "audiophile" records, but I digress.

I reiterate, this isn't everyone. These are just my anecdotal findings with many in the audiophile crowd. YMMV.

There are many things far to on the money here- one reason I have more friends/acquaintances in DIY than your classic "consumer audiophile" who doesn't build. There are people at work I avoid just because I know they're into that scene with that stereotypical outlook, unfortunately.

I have one more idea to throw into the pot to explain this.

A lot of the program that this crowd prefers is selected BECAUSE it has some lifelike characteristics, and BECAUSE it doesn't have musical characteristics that stress out the gear, particularly source components.

Too complex a musical passage can stress out DAC's or be reproduced badly just as easily as it used to be the bugaboo for phono cartridges.

Only in the last year or so have I had access to digital gear that doesn't mangle the transient and harmonic content with complex program. So, with many source components, and many speakers (I think these are generally the worst offenders, though you'd be surprised (or not) what I've found in some amplifiers), there is a natural tendency to what to find program that sounds natural on the system as it is configured.

Well, that's all very good and well, but as you note, it can result in some rather insipid musical selections.

What I find revealing in a component, and which I personally revel in, is having some one over to listen to the Modula Xtremes built this year, with the new Metric Halo Dac, and putting on "Your Time is Gonna Come" and having them think it's some kind of audiophile organ recording at first, until all "heck" breaks loose. (the mids through the big SS woofers and the Accuton mids certainly help pulling that off)

Then when they pick there jaws up off the floor and say, "Rock and Roll!" I pull a bait and switch, and pull up the Hooters on the Mac Mini, with "All you Zombies", replete with growling Hammond organ, ethereal bell trees, percussive bass, and high octane in your face drumming, and it's sensory overload time, with the kind of recording that frankly mangles audiophile systems, as well as most others. To hear what it really sounds like for cheap, you need a first class DAC and pair of headphones.

"Noah saw it coming, forty days, and forty nights!"


Just try it. I dare you. :W

One spin at 100 dB is more invigorating than a strong cup of coffee!

[peterselby7]

As some have mentioned, the main problem (I believe) is the loudspeaker. I think that many high end as well as low end speakers are simply not designed well. On cheaper speakers you may not notice a poor recording sounding flawed because the transducers (speaker drivers) are not capable of the resolution to show the flaws.

Add the crossover components into the equation and you have a music masking situation. I think this is why some cheap systems will outperform a high resolution system in some scenarios.

Where the high end stereo has difficulties is when the speaker design and/or playback chain strays from absolute neutral. (sounding to cold or too fat)

There can be many other problems such as phase anomalies and smear etc. But all this adds up to compounding the problems already found on the recordings. They just make it go from bad to worse.

A truly great loudspeaker even on a poor recording will still sound like a great loudspeaker. But you will clearly know that something is amiss with the recording technique. But still many of these albums as you guys have pointed out can be musically enjoyable. (some more than others)

A good loudspeaker should show the flaw for what it is but still sound like music and be listenable. I think the issue is that many of the retail speakers on the market are very poor designs -and that includes high end very expensive products.

I also agree that the source components, DAC, etc are very important as well -but the loudspeaker is the weakest link in the chain.

Loudspeakers have higher distortion levels than all but the worst designed DACs, preamps, and amplifiers. (Usually higher than all of your source components put together.) So the largest gains can be made in the loudspeaker (if designed and built properly) IMO

Some companies that I think do this well are Rockport Tech, Magico, and Wilson. But all of these have one thing in common - they are extremely expensive (not just high end prices but stratospheric prices). Who can afford them? Not very many of us...

[bigburner]

What I find revealing in a component, and which I personally revel in, is having some one over to listen to the Modula Xtremes built this year, with the new Metric Halo Dac, and putting on "Your Time is Gonna Come" and having them think it's some kind of audiophile organ recording at first, until all "heck" breaks loose.

Then when they pick there jaws up off the floor and say, "Rock and Roll!" I pull a bait and switch, and pull up the Hooters on the Mac Mini, with "All you Zombies", replete with growling Hammond organ, ethereal bell trees, percussive bass, and high octane in your face drumming, and it's sensory overload time, with the kind of recording that frankly mangles audiophile systems, as well as most others.

Those are two full-on songs undoubtedly Jon but if you REALLY want to give your Modula Xtremes a workout then put on the "Mighty Rearranger" CD by Robert Plant & The Strange Sensation and play track 2 "Shine It All Around" followed by track 4 "Tin Pan Valley". I just hope your Xtremes can take it because my modest system is driven to the edge at less than 100 dB.

Nigel.

[JonMarsh]

Hey, thanks! I'll check that out Nigel!

[emig5m]

I think it's so frustrating that it's the year 2010 and we have the tech to make spectacular sounding recordings but at the recording and mastering studio level things seem to be going BACKWARDS! Like what was mentioned above about Metallica's Death Magnetic! Other similar examples are the songs by Jay-Z - Young Forever, and Onereublic's - All The Right Moves! Two songs I like, but sound horrendous on a true hi-fi system! :roll:

You know what's even more frustrating, the artists themselves... I mean these people ARE music people, they live it, they make it, and make MILLIONS doing it and yet don't seem to give a rats ass about how good their end result sounds! Mind blowing! 8O

The main problem is there's just no standards and a lot of people just flat out don't care!!!!

BTW, who's Diana Krall? I wonder if I'm the only person in the world to have listened to 2 Live Crew on B&W 800 series. :lol: : :rofl:

[Ovation]

Here she is.

[technodanvan]

I think it's so frustrating that it's the year 2010 and we have the tech to make spectacular sounding recordings but at the recording and mastering studio level things seem to be going BACKWARDS! Like what was mentioned above about Metallica's Death Magnetic! Other similar examples are the songs by Jay-Z - Young Forever, and Onereublic's - All The Right Moves! Two songs I like, but sound horrendous on a true hi-fi system! :roll:

You know what's even more frustrating, the artists themselves... I mean these people ARE music people, they live it, they make it, and make MILLIONS doing it and yet don't seem to give a rats ass about how good their end result sounds! Mind blowing! 8O

The main problem is there's just no standards and a lot of people just flat out don't care!!!!

BTW, who's Diana Krall? I wonder if I'm the only person in the world to have listened to 2 Live Crew on B&W 800 series. :lol: : :rofl:

I have to agree, I've been purchasing a lot of older rap of late (Jay-Z, Nas, and Biggie) that I only listen to in my car as, for the most part, it just doesn't sound right otherwise.

I'm considering a new pair of speakers that aren't as nice...just something loud and willing to make rock and rap sound right.

[naughty]

music is a very subjective thing - i for one dont listen to too much rock or alternative or absolutely no metal

nor do i listen to Diana Krall either and even though i dont consider myself to be a true audiophile cos my gear isnt of that caliber - but i do listen to mainly Jazz music because i had enough of the other stuff when i was a DJ at my local nightclub circuit - nowadays i just want that relaxing music to listen to and most of you would describe it as elevator music but its what relaxes me hence why i can listen to it all day

either way whatever music anyone listens to they are entitled to listen to it cos at the end of the day they have paid for their own system. If i dont like metal there is no way you can tell me that i should be listening to it in the same way i wont bother to tell you that instead of listening to Metallica you should try some Lee Ritenour or Kirk Whalum :P

though to be fair to yourself you owe it to yourself to buy a system that matches the type of music you listen to

[jbreezy5]

[naughty] You should listen to, and like, metal. j/k :rofl:

It sounds like you listen to jazz because you truly enjoy it. That's a good example of an audiophile (not how amazing your audio stack is).

Maybe the original post really only intended to say that there is a somewhat musically-limited trend at alot of the audiophile shows; not necessarily that the particular music found at audio shows is bad. It seems the concern is one of not exposing people to other types of music, creating a state in which audiophiles become a bunch of cookie-cutter listeners (ho-hum). Music often becomes more exhilirating when we get to hear something fresh. Whether it's a new track heard for the first time, or an old-forgotten one that got lost in the shuffle. Sometimes, I purposely don't listen to music, just to come back later and experience a revived sense of enjoyment.

As William Cowper said, "Variety's the very spice of life, that gives it all its flavor.".

-JBreezy-

[bigburner]

Hey, thanks! I'll check that out Nigel!

Thank you for introducing me to the Hooters. It wasn't a band I knew until I got hold of the "All You Zombies" track in order to apply your test.

I see they released a VHS called "Nervous Night" that includes "All You Zombies". I'll be keeping an eye out for the DVD version.

Nigel.

[multiham]

Just had this happen today. Went to look at buying a new system for my office. Sales person brought out his pile of cd's and asked me what I liked to listen to. I told him classic rock. It was like I was speaking a foreign language! Didn't have anything to play for me. Lucky I brought my "demo" disk with me. Nothing like Queen - Bohemian Rhapsody, followed by The Clash - Lost in The SuperMarket, Bon Jovi - It's my Life, and Red Hot Chili Peppers - Californication to make for an interesting set. Sales Person called my music interesting. There was actually one person who worked there that thought it was great. He told me it is extremely rare that anyone comes in and doesn't want to hear jazz, opera, or some type of chamber music! He said most of the people who come in don't really like that type of music, but they've been "told" that is what you should demo speakers with. I know my cd is not high quality. I'm looking for speakers that make me sit back and go WOW.

[David Meek]

As far as auditioning goes IMO, whether your favorite is metal, pop, classical, rock, country or what-have-you, the most important thing is to take music you are intimately familiar with. Stuff you've listened to for years. Songs that you know every beat, chord, vocal so well that you can listen to a foreign speaker and know exactly what differences you are hearing in the music.

I really think I'd go crazy if I had to listen to the seller's musical choices. The 73rd time I heard Diana Krall sing, I'd probably have a nervous breakdown.

[btf1980]

Just had this happen today. Went to look at buying a new system for my office. Sales person brought out his pile of cd's and asked me what I liked to listen to. I told him classic rock. It was like I was speaking a foreign language! Didn't have anything to play for me. Lucky I brought my "demo" disk with me. Nothing like Queen - Bohemian Rhapsody, followed by The Clash - Lost in The SuperMarket, Bon Jovi - It's my Life, and Red Hot Chili Peppers - Californication to make for an interesting set. Sales Person called my music interesting. There was actually one person who worked there that thought it was great. He told me it is extremely rare that anyone comes in and doesn't want to hear jazz, opera, or some type of chamber music! He said most of the people who come in don't really like that type of music, but they've been "told" that is what you should demo speakers with. I know my cd is not high quality. I'm looking for speakers that make me sit back and go WOW.

Exactly!

This is the attitude that is so pervasive in this hobby, and I've tried to dispel the myths that hifi is for certain kinds of music only. I'd be lying if I said I was successful with my efforts...lol. It is what it is, however - let us not be shocked, nor should we complain when more popular music isn't made with care. The audience just isn't there to buy it, so why bother? Look at SACD. Sure, it's not mainstream & will never be, but releases are still trickling out. It's pretty much the domain of classical music and some jazz releases here and there. When was the last time a recent rock or pop SACD was released? People often say that the music isn't recorded well, but that's a more recent phenomenon. Before dynamic range compression (DRC), recorded music was just fine. All genres of it, but audiophiles were still buying the same music by and large back then too.

If anything, if more audiophiles had broader tastes, perhaps we might have influenced the listening public to see the benefits of high fidelity, and the record companies would care about it. Ultimately, it's all about money, and that's where business goes. Instead, many audiophiles just complain about the poor recording practices of the industry, while they listen to the same easy listening lps they've been listening to for years. It reminds me of adults who always complain about the bad attitudes of young people, as if the young people grew up in a vacuum. Who gave birth to them and raised them? Their ideas are shaped by the world around them, so who is really to blame? Likewise, when we have this stigma of audiophiles being stick in the mud people more concerned about gear and monotonous music, it might not describe many of us, but we need to be introspective and take a good look at many in the hobby, and accept that a massive chunk is exactly like that. They are derisive of any gear that doesn't cost a massive amount of money, and they are derisive of music that dares to have balls. Yet, these same people will have the gall to complain about the poor state of recorded music, while their very existence & every fiber of their being is non welcoming to anyone who doesn't think like them or has deep pockets like them. Why would anything change?

Many popular albums have been mastered by brilliant engineers that sound great, however "audiophile" companies won't release them partly due to licensing fees, but the chief reason is that it won't sell well. They know where their bread is buttered and Diana Krall has the knife.

[btf1980]

This poster on the Steve Hoffman forums summed up his experience at the Dagogo Hifi show. It's pretty much why I stopped going to these audiophile events, as I have had the same experiences & worse. I could write a book on it.

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost.php?p=5691149&postcount=25