Amp opinions

[GregLett]

Hi gang,

Since it's dam near impossible to get an in home audition on these amps, I would
like to get some opinions on the what you think of the sound of these amps.
Krell KAV 2250
Primare A32
Mcintosh MC402

I looking for what can be described as a warm sound. Does anyone here live with any of these amps?

Thanks.

[NMyTree]

No. But I have just recently had a very brief listen to the McIntosh MC402.

There is a touch of warmth to the mc402. So smooth, so musical ......so very powerful! I recently got the mc252, but I am saving for the mc402.

It will take me quite a while to save for that one. But it's a fantastic amp and right up my alley in terms of the type of sound I love!

P.S. It weighs a ton

I don't know how it compares to the other amps you have listed, I've never heard them.

[GregLett]

Thanks for the response Tony.

[twitch54]

Greg, You live in NY and can't get an "in-home" audition of Mac ????? their built in Binghamton, I find it somewhat surprising you don't have any quality dealers in your area.

[GregLett]

Yea I get the we don't do that every time. I have one more call to make. The one dealer i know that would let me take home any amp i want doesn't have Mac. If you of a dealer please let me know.

[GregLett]

Well I found one store that will do it. This is a store that I purchased my Rotel gear from. The deal is that I pay for the amp, keep it overnight, if I don't like it they will charge me $300 for the overnight rental.

[ShadowZA]

GregLett, I use 2 channels of the Krell KAV-3250 to drive my front B&W 803D's (the third channel drives my centre HTM2D + I use a KAV-2250 to drive my B&W Nautilus 804 surrounds).

I am not able to give you an opinion on my sound compared to the other amps you mention. I can, however, describe the sound I get (in 2 channel stereo from a well recorded smooth jazz CD) as being detailed, musical, full bodied with beautiful & smooth highs void of any harshness. To me it is the equivalent of being in love. Totally enjoyable. Can listen for hours and often do. My opinion is that this is mainly as a result of the synergy between source, amp & speakers (plus other factors such as room, cabling, etc) - the accentuation being my source material and player. The Krell, in my opinion, delivers when it needs to. No shortage of power.

That's about all I can give you. Probably not much help amp-wise. Best suggestion I can offer is to try as hard as you can to get an in-home audition of these amps. This is the only pragmatic way to find your best fit. Demo-ing at the store is not ideal, imho, due to synergy issues as I've described above. It is the next best, though.

Good luck :T

[GregLett]

Thanks shadow. I'm trying my best to get an in home audition, or at the very least find a dealer that has the speaker and amp combo that I have.

[Briz vegas]

Well I found one store that will do it. This is a store that I purchased my Rotel gear from. The deal is that I pay for the amp, keep it overnight, if I don't like it they will charge me $300 for the overnight rental.

OK so what are we paying premium prices for in this sector of the market.

In-home demo at this level is basic - 300 bucks for the "privilage" is a joke - imagine if your local BMW dealer tried that one on. Plus if they give you a brand new amp (which is what you pay for) then it takes a month to come on song. My CA200 took that long to establish its character. My dealer was happy for me to take home a demo unit (mind you I had purchased my CD player from him - but he let me borrow that as well - no fee, no down payment, he knew I was serious about the product and he got the sale - CD player, power supply and amp). You have estabished a business relationship with the dealer by buying his Rotel gear - that should be more than enough good will for a weekend loan of his floor model while his shop is shut - costs him nothing and establishes an excellent customer relationship with at least 75% of people - there will always be those that take advantage of this but that is part of the business - if he can't pick the customers that are "fair dinkum" then he will always have problems with his business.

I can say that our local Martin Logan dealer was dissappointed with the synergy between ML and Mc. That was when the first started carrying ML - but when a friend suggested they try Shanling they were very pleasantly surprised with the synergy - even the new shanling CD 3 watt class A combo unit is said to create amazing sound on current model MLs (at low volume - and of course current MLs have the active bass driver).

I have not tried my new amp on the Aeon Is - I think my friend is concerned that it will show up his Prima Luna prologue 3 and Krell 300R combo (I would be dissappointed if it didn't - but I am biased)

Tried the A32 with 804s and 802D plus my (now traded) CJ PV14LS2. The demo was a bit restricted at first as I used my own interconnects which were DHLabs Silver sonics. Sound was much better with the dealers silver interconnects (my DH Labs have since been retired for much better silver interconnects). Left me a bit flat with both speakers. MLs may have a different synergy speaker to amp - although my Aeon I owning friend thought that my speakers and CJ pre plus his Krell sounded like his Aeon Is without the MLs big sound stage. Primare had a very laid back (even, did not grab your attention) sound that may fit your definition of warm - I just did not find it very involving (note I was auditioning a Primare CD player at the time - so many variables that it is almost impossble to give useful advice)

Of course you could try a CJ CA200 - I would love to hear how it would work with the MLs - on paper is should meet all your needs and has a great sound that I can only describe as "natural".

[GregLett]

I noticed that most of the stores in the NYC area don't like to do in home auditions. The store I deal with mostly near my home doesn't have some of the brands I would like to try. I spoke to him yesterday and found out he is closing up after 27 years in business. He said it's time to retire. I going to take home the Classe CA-2200 tonight to see how I like that.

I will be able to compare it with the CA-201 I have on loan from my cousin.

[GregLett]

Hi gang,

Since it's dam near impossible to get an in home audition on these amps, I would
like to get some opinions on the what you think of the sound of these amps.
Krell KAV 2250
Primare A32
Mcintosh MC402

I looking for what can be described as a warm sound. Does anyone here live with any of these amps?

Thanks.

One more to add. Parasound

[Karma]

GregLett, I use 2 channels of the Krell KAV-3250 to drive my front B&W 803D's (the third channel drives my centre HTM2D + I use a KAV-2250 to drive my B&W Nautilus 804 surrounds).

I am not able to give you an opinion on my sound compared to the other amps you mention. I can, however, describe the sound I get (in 2 channel stereo from a well recorded smooth jazz CD) as being detailed, musical, full bodied with beautiful & smooth highs void of any harshness. To me it is the equivalent of being in love. Totally enjoyable. Can listen for hours and often do. My opinion is that this is mainly as a result of the synergy between source, amp & speakers (plus other factors such as room, cabling, etc) - the accentuation being my source material and player. The Krell, in my opinion, delivers when it needs to. No shortage of power.

That's about all I can give you. Probably not much help amp-wise. Best suggestion I can offer is to try as hard as you can to get an in-home audition of these amps. This is the only pragmatic way to find your best fit. Demo-ing at the store is not ideal, imho, due to synergy issues as I've described above. It is the next best, though.

Good luck :T

HI Greg,
Shadows system is more pure Krell than mine. I have a Krell 3250 (a three channel 2250) driving the L/R fronts (805S) and the center channel (HTM4S). I have the rears driven from my Denon 3805 AV receiver.

Originally, I had a Krell 2250 driving the L/R fronts and the center driven by the Denon. The 2250 failed. That was about two years ago. I made a deal with my dealer to replace it with the current 3250 plus a little added cash. I had become convinced that the center channel needed as good of an amp as the L/R's. Good decision. So, I have had chance to listen extensively to both models. I can tell you that they sound identical. So, I can write about the 3250 and you can substitute 2250 without any hesitation. BTW, I think the failure was a fluke. I've had no further problems.

OK, let's start. I am speaking about 2 channel music only from a CD source. You can assume the HT performance is consistent. First, I request that you define as exactly as possible what you mean by "warm". Do not assume I know what you are talking about. I hate this term because it means something different to each person. I never use the word except when talking about my sleeping bag. I will not use it to describe amp sound because I don't know what it means either to me or you.

My Krell 3250 produces an honest sound. It is as lacking in sonic signature as any solid state amp that I have heard. It's as close to Stuart Hagerman's classic description of ideal amp sound as a "straight wire with gain" as I have experienced with solid state technology. The 3250 will not compensate for other shortcomings in your system.

The sonic signature is totally dominated by the surrounding components and the recorded source. Highs are extended, detailed, and smooth, midrange full but neither recessed or aggressive, and the bass is unknown. Unknown because the 805S's don't do real bass. That's taken care of by dual B&W ASW800 subs so the 3250 is not really involved. It's excellent as far as it goes. Of course, that's a shame because Krell is recognized as producing state of the art bass. I just don't use it. Too bad but the ASW800's do an excellent job. The 3250's power dynamics are excellent, as good as I have ever heard. The sound is fast and accurate.

The image is wide and deep with height when the material calls for it. The image does not wander. Again, this is completely dependant on the source material. Please note that the amp cannot be characterized except by the program material. This is the biggest compliment I can pay to any amp. Some might call the amp "cool" but I place this term in the same category as "Warm". No meaning, no sense, non-sense.

Compared to my main system which is ARC tube based driving Martin Logan CLS IIA's, the 3250/805S combo lacks a little subtlety, ultimate detail, resolution and micro dynamics. But there is a huge difference in price. And my ARC system is truly a world champ at these qualities. The 3250/805S is not far behind which is a lot to say for a modestly priced (not cheap but not expensive either) solid state amp driving conventional speakers.

Honest. That word works. If you want an amp that modifies the sound field, look elsewhere. Bottom line: I feel the 3250 is an outstanding amp, very powerful, subtle, and never attacks my ears. I like it a lot

Sparky

[GregLett]

Sparky,

I guess when I say warm I'm describing a tube sound maybe. The treble
and mids are not harsh or edgy, and it does remind me of getting under a nice warm comforter what I'm really after is most likely what
your main system sounds. I want tubes and the panels, but I cannot
afford the tube amps that would be needed to drive My ML Aeon I with
the authority of a ss amp.

I've heard demos of very expensive SS amps the gave me a headache, but some
people love it and describe it as having lost of detail.
When I first auditioned my ML's at the dealer was using NAD master series equipment, I did not like it at all. He then pointed to a krell amp on the floor( I forget which model) that was for sale used and asked if I wanted to hear it.
I said sure and he hooked it up. The sound was amazing. I would describe it
as relaxing.

[Karma]

HI Greg,
Your description of "Warm" underlines the problem I ranted about. Let's look into it a bit. Thanks for the try but I think you made my point better than I could have.

First, let's examine "tube sound" and what my main ARC system sounds like. Despite the stereotypes, tube sound varies all over the place. My ARC system does not sound tuby. No rounded highs, no soft, flabby bass, no loss of speed or dynamics; no sir, not here! True, it does sound very smooth with a total lack of grain. The stereotype simply does not fit this amp and the system. What it does have is an astonishing sense of reality which should be the goal of any system. In my view it sounds more "solid state" than tuby as defined by those who love the stereotypes. In fact, in the past I have characterized its sound as tubed Krell. It is very subtle with great finesse yet has the balls of a nuclear explosion. Rather than using worn out stereotypical terms I would simply call the sound REAL (honest to a fault).

Now for the issue of solid state amps sounding like tubes. It does not exist, IMO. In my view, solid state technology is an inferior technology. It is not a question of tube or solid state but rather which technology sounds the most real no matter how it is achieved. This goes to the very essence of the term "high fidelity"; faithfulness to the original sound. Even though SS amps have greatly improved over the years they are still catching up with tubes.

However, I definitely don't like all tube amps. Those which appeal to the tubey sound crowd (read vintage), in my view, are simply old, outdated, bad amps relative to newer designs. Perhaps good in their day (McIntosh, Marantz, others) but their day has passed. Many new tube amps attempt to emulate the vintage sound. In those cases I much prefer a good, modern SS amp. I find Krell's, Levinson's, Classe's, Rowland's and others, very satisfying while at the same time understanding that they do not perform as realistically as my favorite tube amps. But none of these top rung SS amps sound like tubes and they are all expensive.

If you want tube sound, what ever that exactly means, you must buy tubes. Maybe the better way to describe the choice is if you want the best, most faithful sound, you must buy tubes.

Sparky

[GregLett]

Sparky,

Maybe I'm not very good at describing the sound I like. Lets put it this way.
I like the sound of audio research tube gear. I auditioned my MLS with 25K worth of ARC tube gear at the dealer. The problem is I cannot afford that gear.
Believe me if I did we wouldn't be having this discussion.

So hears the question. How can I get as close to that sound with SS? I know I will fall short but I have no choice. You mentioned Krell. Would you say that Krell
would be a good step in that direction? As you stated all tube amps are not the same I agree, I've heard them.

[Hdale85]

I've heard that Class D amps have a very tubey sound. You could order a Hypex amp (he has some under the Exodus brand that are prebuilt) from diy-cable.com I'm not sure if he has any kind of audition period but its an idea? I'm not sure who else sells Class D amps. Other option to get the tubey sound would be to get a really nice Tube Preamp and a nice SS amp. There are a couple good things about this as you get best of both worlds of SS and Tube and you don't have to replace tubes as often as you would with tube amps. This is something I've thought about doing.

[Karma]

Sparky,

Maybe I'm not very good at describing the sound I like. Lets put it this way.
I like the sound of audio research tube gear. I auditioned my MLS with 25K worth of ARC tube gear at the dealer. The problem is I cannot afford that gear.
Believe me if I did we wouldn't be having this discussion.

So hears the question. How can I get as close to that sound with SS? I know I will fall short but I have no choice. You mentioned Krell. Would you say that Krell
would be a good step in that direction? As you stated all tube amps are not the same I agree, I've heard them.

HI Greg,
I think your description is fine. I just don't think the goal is sonically reasonable.

I almost never get involved with suggesting amps on this forum. We are all so different in our tastes; our systems are so different, our rooms, our financial capabilities, our experience, and our priorities that I think it is impossible to make informed recommendations. Furthermore, I think it is folly for me to think I know enough to make such suggestions.

But since we have taken this discussion to this point and you do seem serious, I have a little to say. You will judge its worth.

Buy tubes. Buy ARC. Buy USED ARC. If you want tube sound buying tubes is the only path to satisfaction. Significant money can be saved by buying used. I see it as the only valid shortcut. You may say that it is a risky approach and I would agree, to a point. But really excellent equipment, such as ARC, cuts the risk considerably. I have found that most people who are selling ARC in the used market are audiophiles and music lovers, not shysters. That also cuts the risk. If you decide you don't like the equipment or you want to upgrade you can always sell it and recoup almost all your money.

Upgrades are a real consideration. Prior to my current system I owned two other ARC preamps (SP-8 and SP-10 Mk II) and one other ARC power amp (D-115 Mk II) all bought new. Once I had a taste of the possibilities I wanted the whole show. I knew that the SP-11 and the D-250 were two of ARC's classic designs. I had never heard or even seen either one. My previous ARC stuff were great but, as always, you get what you pay for. My current line up was at the top of ARC's models and they sound it. My gamble definitely paid off.

Do not demand the latest models. Many of ARC's earlier designs are wonderful by any standard. I will use my case as an example. Both my ARC SP-11 Mk II preamp ($5000 new in 1990) and my D250 Mk II Servo power amp ($6700 new in 1987) were bought used. I paid $2500 for the pre and $2400 for the power amp. Both units stand up very well to ARC's latest and greatest. I have upgraded the capacitors in the D-250 to good effect but this is a minor consideration. It was great out of the box.

Do be careful about the viability of the tubes. If they are worn out, that can add up to a considerable expense. All you have to rely on is the word of the seller so be sure to trust the one you buy from. Be sure to ask the right questions. The alternative is to offer a low ball price assuming that replacement tubes will be needed. It's up to you to determine how much money you can put into the venture.

I have a caveat. For home theater systems that get used a lot I'm not sure tubes are the way to go. There is a maintenance expense involved with tubes. Tubes wear out and must be replaced. This is the main reason I did not go with tubes in my bedroom HT system. This system gets used for TV, movies, background music and serious 2 channel music. Most of my equipment decisions were driven by its 2 channel music capability. HT use does not detract from its 2 channel music performance. Hour wise, I use it much more than my main ARC music system. Therefore, I want my bedroom system to be good and I was willing to compromise a little (no tubes) to meet these goals.

You ask “which should I buy?” Well, I bought Krell. I guess that's an answer. What else can I say? To say otherwise is to admit that I made a mistake and my ego just can't stand that. Seriously, I bought what I wanted and that was Krell. I have no regrets.

Sparky

[GregLett]

Thanks sparky,

I have no problem buying used. My logans even though rated 80 to 200 watts performed very well driven by 400 watts. I think I will try to get my hands on a used krell. Kav2250 to start, then work on getting a used ARc pre.
There is a big ARC on agon but I'm concerned about the fan noise of that model.

[Karma]

HI Greg,
You are right to be concerned with fan noise. My big (250W/chan) D-250 has four fans! While they are relatively quiet they are still audible if the amp is placed close to the listening position. The D-250 is a stereo amp, the last very high powered stereo amp ARC made, not dual mono blocks.

Also, heat is an issue. This brute has 32 tubes 20 of which are 6550 beam pentodes. They do put out some heat. I call her "Mother" for the Mother of All Amps. It was purchased during the first gulf war, thus the name.

I solved both problems by mounting her on a very heavy duty home made dolly. She lives her entire life on the dolly including during servicing the bottom side of the chassis. Then I placed the whole mess in a converted closet. The audio cables run through the wall. I ran a dedicated 120V service to the closet and installed a small remote air conditioner. Now, neither noise or heat is a problem. I can still hang clothes in the closet but the floor is totally taken by the amp and power conditioners.

Big tube amps are kind of like having your mother-in-law move in. You must accomodate her no matter the cost or trouble.

The newer ARC amps have quieter fans and a better thermal design. They would be less of a noise issue.

Is it worth it? You bet.

BTW, which Martin Logan speakers do you have? If they are hybreds (all but the CLS's) then you will be in the same position as me in that the 2250's wonderful bass will not be used. It's a pity.

Sparky

Edited to Add:

Opps, I just reread your previous post and saw you have ML Aeon's. I have not heard these but if they are typical ML's they are great. I certainly love my CLS IIA's. ML's absolutely bring the best out of tubes and can be extremely critical of anything less than the best of electronics. Most folks don't give them good enough sources. Their impedance curve at high frequencies is very difficult. Many tube amps can't handle it. The 2250 should work fine.

[GregLett]

Sparky,

I have the Aeon I. I've been warned by some folks not to put tubes on it. Th other options were to to bi-amp with tubes on the panels an SS on the woofer, or Tube Pre and SS amp. do like the slam I get with the SS amp (classe 2200) that I tried, but not the top very much, of course that could be my pre ro source. I did hear Krell on the Vantages for a short and I did like the sound that was some time ago and the dealer no longer has Krell in the store.
So I think with my $2500 budget I will go with a krell and work from there.
I have a tube pre now PrimaLuna, I will be able to try a Cary to see how it sounds with that.

[twitch54]

So I think with my $2500 budget I will go with a krell and work from there.

Greg, As you know, I'm a "Logan" guy myself and given your budget you are mighty close to buying the magic of 'Plinius'. I'm using the SA-102 to drive my Vantage's (yes, I know the bass driver is self-powered) and it does so with so much of the 'tube character' that a good Class "A" SS amp can.

[Briz vegas]

Ah - now we have a budget. Gees you can get an MC402 for $2500, even second hand that is ultra cheap. Those things are $11,000(AU) new in Australian - current exchange puts that at about $10,000 US. I feel sorry for the Kiwis, they pay $10,000 (NZ)for a Krell 400xi (new) - for us its $5,000 (AU).

Anyway, get out there and listen to some amps Greg. I'm curious as to what you end up getting.

[GregLett]

Ah - now we have a budget. Gees you can get an MC402 for $2500, even second hand that is ultra cheap. Those things are $11,000(AU) new in Australian - current exchange puts that at about $10,000 US. I feel sorry for the Kiwis, they pay $10,000 (NZ)for a Krell 400xi (new) - for us its $5,000 (AU).

Anyway, get out there and listen to some amps Greg. I'm curious as to what you end up getting.

The 402 would be a little more used. The retail is $5,900 us. If I could audition it, and liked it enough I would wait for one to show up on agon. THe Kress 400Xi
is $2500 here it's tempting, but again no in home audition available here. I'm going to go for a used Krell. I would like to get the KAV 2250 used as a first choice.

[GregLett]

Krell KAV 2250 it is. Snagged one on AGON should have it in a week.

[Karma]

HI Greg,
Good for you!!! :T

Be sure to let us know how it sounds on your ML's. It's funny but I have never put my 3250 on my CLS's. It's more work than my curiosity justifies. I thought, "Well, I'll just wait until Greg buys a 2250 and see what he thinks."

And now you will.

Good Luck, Sparky

[ShadowZA]

Congrats, Greg!

I'm also interested in your opinion once you've had some time to "play".

Good luck, & enjoy :T

[RebelMan]

First, I request that you define as exactly as possible what you mean by "warm". Do not assume I know what you are talking about. I hate this term because it means something different to each person. I never use the word except when talking about my sleeping bag. I will not use it to describe amp sound because I don't know what it means either to me or you.

Some might call the [Krell 3250] amp "cool" but I place this term in the same category as "Warm".

My take on warm is - Sound that is naturally rich but lacking in aggression and metalic character.

Stereophile's take is - "A mellow, excessively rich quality in reproduced sound. The audible effect of a frequency response which is [slightly] clockwise-tilted across the entire range, so that output diminishes with increasing frequency."

Take your pick.

Sparky, you offered an enjoyable read and I support your position on most counts regarding quality sound reproduction using tubes and that the current state of SS devices hasn't quite reached full bloom (pun intended). However, National Semiconductor has developed a crop of high-tech OpAmps that are claimed to give high-end SS equipment a level up in performance. It should be interesting to see where this will place the opposing implementations in the future. Given Classe's relationship with National in the past I am quite eager to see what will unfold.

You must possess the tenacity and patience of Job to keep "Mother" comfortable at home. I am too weak an individual to even consider such a duanting task much less practice it. If I haven't told you before you have earned my respect for this Sir. :W

[Briz vegas]

Another Aeon I, primaluna P3, Krell system coming up. Hope it delivers for you Greg !!

[GregLett]

Thank you Gentleman. I sure hope I like it.
RebelMan thanks for those descriptions.

[GregLett]

Krell KAV2250

Krell KAV2250. My current config: Cambridge Audio 840C (on loan) PrimaLuna pre and the Krell.

The Krell took the system to another level dynamically, everything is more there; the good, the bad and the ugly.
I'm not totally happy with the sound of the system at the moment. The midrange and the upper frequencies are not as smooth as I would like them to be.
About two weekend my buddy brought over his Cary pre, which instantly told me that the weak link in the chain is my pre.
The Cary SLP98 (with NOS tubes) was absolutely amazing. It took away the edginess and made the music more to my liking.

I'm not totally ready to give up on my pre yet however. I want to try different tubes first. Another piece that made a difference on my pre was the power cord. I currently have Shunyata cables on it, trying the Electraglide Epiphany had an improvement.
I don't get the power cord think, maybe someone can explain how a short piece of electrical wire can have such an effect?

[GregLett]

Anyone here have the BAT VK-3ix? I'm looking at the as a possible candidate for my system. I like the fact that it is fully balanced, Krell recommends using the balanced connection on the amp. As a matter I'm currently using adapters and the sound is better using the balanced connections.

[twitch54]

The fact that you like the Cary Pre makes me wonder why you bought the Krell amp ????. The Cary pre is tonally warm in the mids to say the very least, the Krell is no where near the Cary's tonal balance.

Why don't you mate a pair of Prima Luna's "7" monblocks, I think those KT-88's would do wonders for your Logans.

FWIW, send "JoeyV" a PM over on the Logan forum for his thoughts on the Cary "98" pre, he's been running one for a year now.

[GregLett]

The fact that you like the Cary Pre makes me wonder why you bought the Krell amp ????. The Cary pre is tonally warm in the mids to say the very least, the Krell is no where near the Cary's tonal balance.

Why don't you mate a pair of Prima Luna's "7" monblocks, I think those KT-88's would do wonders for your Logans.

FWIW, send "JoeyV" a PM over on the Logan forum for his thoughts on the Cary "98" pre, he's been running one for a year now.

The Krell was purchase before I heard the Cary pre in my system. My original plan was to get the PL. monoblocs, but I was cautioned against doing that due to the impedance swings of the Logans. I like the slam of the Krell I'm just not totally happy with the mids and highs.

My next step is to try different tubes for the PL. since that's the easiest to do. If I don't like that the PL monos could be next.

What I would really like is a matching pre and power amp the experiment with the other pieces. I just wish I could get all the pieces together at once and try out the different combinations.

I might also just go back to my Jolida player, I liked things better with it in the system.

[Briz vegas]

My prima luna/Aeon i mate has been tube rolling recently (although he uses the Krell 300r). I can ask him what tubes worked best or just alert him to this thread if you like.

[GregLett]

My prima luna/Aeon i mate has been tube rolling recently (although he uses the Krell 300r). I can ask him what tubes worked best or just alert him to this thread if you like.

sure

[zmanbands]

Also consider Herbies tube dampers

They are only $20/tube. Does improve sound. 90 day trial period.

[twitch54]

They are only $20/tube. Does improve sound. 90 day trial period.

Not to mention high temp silcone O-rings from the auto parts store...less than 50 cents !

[GregLett]

I'm in Boston this. Visited a cousin who has MBL's :cry:
First time seeing his rig. WOW! won't even try to list all the @&^#& his has.

[soundhound]

Anyone here have the BAT VK-3ix? I'm looking at the as a possible candidate for my system. I like the fact that it is fully balanced, Krell recommends using the balanced connection on the amp. As a matter I'm currently using adapters and the sound is better using the balanced connections.

I have the VK-3i Greg with oem tubes in it, and it is VERY Nuetral sounding.
My VTL LS 2.5 with RCA Greyplates has a much "richer" sound.

[Briz vegas]

sure

And the advice on tubes from the Aeon I, Prime Luna PL3, Krell guy is ..............its your room not your pre-amp. Too many hard reflective surfaces. I have to agree that his sound is not what I would call harsh at all - timber house, hefty couch, lots of bookshelfs etc.

Could be a cheaper solution if you can handle the change in decore.

[GregLett]

And the advice on tubes from the Aeon I, Prime Luna PL3, Krell guy is ..............its your room not your pre-amp. Too many hard reflective surfaces. I have to agree that his sound is not what I would call harsh at all - timber house, hefty couch, lots of bookshelfs etc.

Could be a cheaper solution if you can handle the change in decore.

The room does play a part in all of this. I will add more treatment as soon as I can.

The one thing I have neglected is power! I just added the Monster Power HT200 surge suppressor with stage 1 power filtering, and it helped a great deal! It made enough of a difference that I ordered APC I was thinking about for a while.
I've also ordered a new set of tubes for the pre. I'll let you know how it turns out. I should have them all this week. line to the APC box below.

http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=H10BLK

[GregLett]

OK. Tonight the grain is gone. I just added the APC box and I should slap myself for not doing it sooner. I assumed my power was fine and I didn't need any conditioning; I was wrong. The other thing I was told by my APC box is that my power fluctuates up toward 130V, WTF! It happened twice tonight. I had to change the AVR range to wide on the unit.

I wonder if being close (right in front of my house) to the step down transformer is the reason for that?

I'm running everything including the amp through it and things sound fine for now. I will be able to put it through the paces this weekend and hear how things work out. I may have to move my rack between my speaker or purchase a second unit. Things are hooked up funky now. I really don't want to put the rack between the speakers, but a second unit would be overkill.

[Briz vegas]

Greg - can you give me more details of the APC box - is that the brand? What model?...............ok - just noticed your link - cool. I wonder how that would work given that Australia has 240v - I am told that it is difficult to get good power conditioning out here.

I have a transformer on my power pole also and have a noise problem that was absent at my folks place - I can tune it out now but I am sure things would sound sweeter if I did not have that hum

Great to hear about your success - enjoy !

[GregLett]

Greg - can you give me more details of the APC box - is that the brand? What model?...............ok - just noticed your link - cool. I wonder how that would work given that Australia has 240v - I am told that it is difficult to get good power conditioning out here.

I have a transformer on my power pole also and have a noise problem that was absent at my folks place - I can tune it out now but I am sure things would sound sweeter if I did not have that hum

Great to hear about your success - enjoy !

Here is a link from APC that has stuff for your neck of the woods.

http://apc.com/tools/surge_selector/index.cfm

[Briz vegas]

That looks like the one at my hifi shop - did not get the brand at the time

http://apc.com/tools/surge_selector/index.cfm

I also think that is the one a friend was going to loan me (as soon as he could find it)

Thanks for the tip. Looking forward to seeing what it can do for me :T