New to tubes, best thing I've ever heard

[george_k]

I was at my friendly neighborhood audio shop returning an amp I had purchase a few days before (jeff rowland model 102...thought it sounded too bright)

After explaining my thoughts to the sales guy he suggested I take a listen to a tube setup...unfortunately he didn't have a full tube setup ready to listen to.

What he did do was have me listen a hybrid tube amp (Pathos Logos) versus a Naim preamp/poweramp combo (solid state).

The same speakers (Pro Ac's), wires, cd player and cd (eagles hotel california) were used and just the amps were swapped.

To make a long story short the hybrid amp sounded so good that's it's made me re-evaluate my setup and future acquisitions.

I don't know a whole lot about valve amps and I don't know whether I should go with a full tube setup (i.e. preamp and power amp) or some sort of hybrid setup (i.e. tube preamp and solidstate power amp).

One thing I did notice is that the gain on various tube preamps I've looked at varies, would there be a problem if there was a mismatch between the gain between the preamp and power amp components if I were to go with seperates?

So for in my shopping list I'm looking at products from VTL and Copland...don't know if I should be looking at other stuff as well.

Any experts care to help a newb out :-)

[Karma]

HI George,
Credentials: My main music system (not HT) has had Audio Research tube electronics for over 20 years. I have run a high end hi fi repair business for 10 years and have listened to an unbelievable variety of equipment, some great and some not so great. I have been an audio addict for much longer. I love tubes.

My resume does not make me a great listener or an infallible authority. Only if you listened to my various systems could you decide if I know what I am talking about. The most I will claim is that I am very experienced and I have seen hi fi change over a long period of time. And, I have dealt with a large number of people who have had many of the same questions you have.

OK, that's out of the way.

You are at the start of a very exciting but difficult journey. You will find much more variety in sonics between various tube equipment manufacturers than you find in solid state. In this reply, I feel the most help I can offer is to direct you to more information. Your challenge is to educate yourself.

First, this forum is devoted to HT. 99.9% of HT systems are solid state. Therefore, this forum, good as it is for HT matters, is not the place to get information about tube hi fi. I suggest that you check out the Audio Asylum and Audio Karma sites, home of a bunch of tube lovers.

Be warned that the folks that are into tubes on the mentioned sites are into a variety of sub-cultures. For example, a large percentage is avidly into vintage tube equipment. Nothing wrong with that except I think modern tube equipment is far better.

If I were just starting out with tubes right now I'm sure I would find the whole thing bewildering. But I (re)started with tubes just when tubes were in the hi fi backwaters in the early 1980's. At that time there were very few tube manufacturers. Most had completely stopped building tube stuff (McIntosh, Marantz, Harmon Kardon, etc.) or were out of business. Sorting things out was far easier than now. Actually, my very first hi fi system was built from Dynaco tube kits in 1962. I switched to the "trouble free" solid state designs as soon as I could and by 1967 my system was entirely solid state. That was a big mistake. It took me almost 15 years to realize it and make the switch back to tubes.

I consider tubes to be the pinnacle of hi fi sound. Tubes are also the most demanding on the owner. Be clear that you will have more maintenance issues. Tubes do wear out and must be replaced. Sometimes a tube failure can cause more serious damage calling for a trip to the repair shop. Since I repair all my own equipment this is not an issue for me. Depending on the amplifier and the tube types used, tubes can be expensive. I don't want to over state this issue. My tube equipment has been very reliable but Audio Research equipment is really well designed. Others out there are not as good. Just be aware that the reliability of tube equipment is not as good as solid state. It's the nature of the beast.

Tube gear is usually difficult to audition. Most hi fi stores quit stocking tube equipment long ago. The sales folks know almost nothing about tubes. If you live near a large city you might find some stuff to audition. If you can, take advantage of the opportunity.

Don't forget that the only thing that matters is what you hear. Use and depend on your ears. Educate them by listening as much as possible. Write down your impressions. Develop an equipment auditioning method. Follow it religiously.

Since tube equipment tends to be the interest of high end consumers, most tube equipment is aimed at that demographic. Thus, tubes tend to be expensive. Do not hesitate to purchase used equipment if it is good. For this, check out the Audiogon site. You will be impressed with the variety of used gear offered there, much of it very good.

I am very partial to Audio Research. Because I have heard so many excellent tube systems based upon a variety of manufacturers I would never claim that Audio Research is the best. It's only my favorite.

One last thing. If you get onto the forums I mentioned above and ask the same question you asked here you will get an amazing number of replies, all making strong claims for different equipment. It will confuse more than help. Figure out better, more specific questions. This will make the forums a far more useful tool. Also, check out the equipment reviews at the Stereophile site. Generally, the reviewers know what they are talking about and you will gain an understanding of the issues.

I hope all this helps.

Sparky

[Chris D]

Good stuff, man!

[zmanbands]

Great Post Karma

I have a great sounding 23 year old ARC Sp 11 with all new relays, one new switch, new factory installed tubes and a free factory phono upgrade. Is there a more recent ARC tube pre amp that is considerably better?

[Karma]

I have a great sounding 23 year old ARC Sp 11 with all new relays, one new switch, new factory installed tubes and a free factory phono upgrade. Is there a more recent ARC tube pre amp that is considerably better?

HI zman,
I also have an SP-11, the Mark II version in my case. Are there better preamps out there? Good question. I certainly have not heard many of the current offerings. I am reluctant to say no. I do know the SP-11 is exceptional and works especially well with my Audio Research D-250 Servo Mark II power amp. They were made for one another. I never plan to "upgrade" either unit.

Sparky

[wkhanna]

I was lucky enough, just yesterday, to spend an afternoon listing to Zmanbands system, including the ARC Sp 11, Rotel 1090, RF-7 Klipsch and a Sony DVP NS9000ES with a level 5 Vacuum State upgrade. (thanks for the wonderful hospitality, too, Z-man!)

It was pure sonic bliss, and having a Carver C-19 pre myself, I can attest to what a valve-based pre can do to really get the most from a digital source.

I might add that IMHO, a tube-based pre can be a great place to start into the world of Valves.
The tubes in pre's are used in a much gentler way than in a power amp, and typiclaly last much last much, much longer. The Prima Luna pre has gotten great press, (I need to go hear one soon). And the used market for tube pre's on Agon is ripe for the picking of sub $1K units that would a great starting point.

[twitch54]

I have a great sounding 23 year old ARC Sp 11 with all new relays, one new switch, new factory installed tubes and a free factory phono upgrade. Is there a more recent ARC tube pre amp that is considerably better?

Zman, Just as Sparky I too have been a follower of Bill Johnson for twenty plus years, it was CJ before that. In trying to answer your question I suppose one needs to define 'considerably'. One thing is todays newer offerings tend to be line stages thus the need for a phono-pre (assuming your spinning vinyl).

Myself , I'm presently using the LS-26, the Ref 3's 'baby brother'. FWIW, I too concur with most reviews that feel it's 90% of the Ref 3 at 60% the cost. It will be in system for a looooong time, for I doubt that I will hear anything "considerably" better within my budget.

as far as georgek's questions, yes Sparky laid it out well....educate ones self. With that I have preached follow your ABC's (ARC, BAT, CJ, Cary) and Mac for example, for they are well established companies with good reputations that equate to quality service down the road when and if you need it.

[Karma]

I was lucky enough, just yesterday, to spend an afternoon listing to Zmanbands system, including the ARC Sp 11, Rotel 1090, RF-7 Klipsch and a Sony DVP NS9000ES with a level 5 Vacuum State upgrade. (thanks for the wonderful hospitality, too, Z-man!).....

Hi George,
And right off the bat, in this thread, you are confronted with one of the basic decisions one must make when putting together a tube based system. Do you want all tubes, or tube pre and SS power amp, or SS premp and tube power amp? All three configurations have advocates.

I'll give my opinion. All tubes from the SAME manufacturer is the way to go from a sonic point of view. The other two compromise performance but have other advantages. One is cost. The other is reliability especially using a SS power amp. Over the years I have used all three configurations. Not only do I reject the hybred approach, I actively dislike them.

In the high end you are basically buying into the equipment designers sonic concepts. This idea is very important to understand and appreciate. That's why all high end equipment sounds different. Each designer has a different concept. When you create a hybred system you are not only mixing concepts, you are also mixing different sounding technologies. The two do not add algebraically. Rather they tend to subtract. I have never heard a mixed technology system that I liked. I say stick with all tubes and let the other considerations take care of themselves. But I am a purest - for good reasons.

I'm sorry zman but, IMO, you should dump the Rotel (an average or slightly better SS amp) and buy a tube amp that will keep up with your SP-11 (an exceptional tube preamp), preferably from ARC. Since you like what you now have, you will experience heaven with the right ARC amp. Run, don't walk. I hope this move is in your plans.

Sparky

[zmanbands]

Sparky If I got an ARC tube Power amp I would Have to move

I have driven my wonderful wife near nutty over the past six months with what Iv'e done. Do you have any room at your house. I did have ARC 300 watt mono blocks with the SP 11 for 20 years. They combined, had 16 tubes at $65 each and I was replacing them about every three years. I figured it cost me $.50 an hour to listen just to them. Finances changed and I sold them to a breathless fellow in Ca. They have a good home. BTW what's up with the audiokarma site? Seems like no one can register. My email is banned and so are others.

[Karma]

HI zman,
Well shut my mouth! It sounds like you had a hell of a system. It's really too bad you had to sell it. But I do know the problem. I'm not far from retirement and I wonder if I can justify my power amps on a limited income. Right now it doesn't look good.

I'm glad I didn't offend you.

I don't know what is going on with Audio Karma. I was able to post yesterday so I didn't know anything was happening. Maybe it's nothing or the site is going through maintenance.

Sparky

[zmanbands]

No offense Sparky

Audiokarma email ban. I have a free email. Free emails are somehow attractive to scammers. For $5 audiokarma will let me register even though my email is free. Thanks for the audio asylum site recommendation. I like it and will busy there catching up for quite some time.

[NMyTree]

There are a lot of good, reliable tube-based or hybrid designs by many good, reliable manufactors.

Some of the one's mentioned by Karma are certainly a nice place to start.

But there are a lot more out there who offer tube-based gear (or hybrid designs) at several different price points.

You'll find as with everything else in this hobby, there are many tube-based designs which all sound different and present the music if diifferent ways.

Butler Audio, Lamm Industries, Manley, Audio Valve, Moscode, Audio By Van Alstine, Vincent Audio, Cary, Eastern Electric Minimax (Morningstar Audio) and several others offer up various designs, different sounding gear and at a lot of different price points.

You'll find that not all tube gear (and the tubes themselves) sound the same.

Audition a lot of different gear, work your way to understanding the type of sound you love as an individual and prefer (because we all have different tastes and preferences).

Try to match your components well, so you'll have synergy with your system (and speakers).

Audition, audition....audition...then buy.

It can really be a lot of fun!

[Jack Gilvey]

Quicksilver is cool, too, if you can find them. I had a pair of their 25w monos on my Spica TC-60's, and I've heard the other models on various Vandersteens and the combo is always killer.

[Karma]

.........Audition a lot of different gear, work your way to understanding the type of sound you love as an individual and prefer (because we all have different tastes and preferences).

Try to match your components well, so you'll have synergy with your system (and speakers).

Audition, audition....audition...then buy.

It can really be a lot of fun!

HI Tree,
Can you suggest a good way to audition a variety of equipment? I feel this is the biggest problem George will face. After all, not many storefront dealers carry tube equipment.

Here in New Mexico, auditioning is nearly impossible except at a friends house.

Sparky

[twitch54]

HI Tree,
Can you suggest a good way to audition a variety of equipment? I feel this is the biggest problem George will face. After all, not many storefront dealers carry tube equipment.

Here in New Mexico, auditioning is nearly impossible except at a friends house.

Sparky

hey Sparky, how are things ?? Guys over at the Martin Logan site say Hi !!

Just to talk about auditioning, a couple of weeks back when I was in to Overture to pick up my VPI SDS, they had set up; the Wilson Alexandria's driven by a pair of ARC 610T monoblocks, Ref-3, and a CD-7, combine that with MIT Oracle cabling ....hell it's probably cost more than my house is worth !!....But man-o-man sweet music it did offer !!

[NMyTree]

HI Tree,
Can you suggest a good way to audition a variety of equipment? I feel this is the biggest problem George will face. After all, not many storefront dealers carry tube equipment.

Here in New Mexico, auditioning is nearly impossible except at a friends house.

Sparky

Yeah, that can be a major problem depending on where you live. Hell, even in some would-be good areas, it can be difficult.

I suppose the best things one can do is hunt around for dealers who have gear to audition, ask guys like us (on these forums) who may live in the area if a listening session would be possible or get gear from dealers (both B&M and small internet dealers ) who have an in-home try-out offer or favorable limited (insert amount of days) return policy. I know it's tough in some areas, but one has to try first and see how it goes.

[Karma]

hey Sparky, how are things ?? Guys over at the Martin Logan site say Hi !!

Just to talk about auditioning, a couple of weeks back when I was in to Overture to pick up my VPI SDS, they had set up; the Wilson Alexandria's driven by a pair of ARC 610T monoblocks, Ref-3, and a CD-7, combine that with MIT Oracle cabling ....hell it's probably cost more than my house is worth !!....But man-o-man sweet music it did offer !!

HI twitch,
Good to hear from you again. Say hi for me too. That sure sounds like a nice system you heard.

Sparky

[george_k]

Hmm,

I could have sworn I posted a message thanking everybody for their input...I guess my wireless connection must have cut right after hitting the "Submit Reply" button.

Thanks for the input everybody :-)

I compile a quick list of who sells what in the Montreal area. From what I've seen the prices, here, are higher than the retail MSRP adjusted for currency just south of the border. I guess they are charging an additional premium for being "exclusive" dealers.

I've found 3 different shops selling 3 different brands within a 15min drive from my place.

Acoustic Research, Cary, VTL

Still looking for a C-J dealer

I'd appreciate any advice about how to go about auditioning/comparing them :-)

[twitch54]

Hmm,

Acoustic Research, Cary, VTL

Still looking for a C-J dealer

I'd appreciate any advice about how to go about auditioning/comparing them :-)

George, you will get so many different opinions on the aforementioned product lines, all of which are top notch IMO, that you need to let YOUR ears be the judge.

[soundhound]

It can't be stressed enough about letting the sonics guide you, and only your ears can be the judge.
I can say without a doubt VTL makes killer gear, as I own 4 of their pieces now, have had for some time, and will only change when I can move up "their" food chain.
I have a GNSC modded 2.5 linestage, ST 150 stereo, and Signature 185 mono's. I have had zero problems with any of them. I had experienced a couple of "bad tubes" while rolling, but its a walk in the park that is well worth it.

[Karma]

HI George,
And now the basic problem with forums is demonstrated. In the post above, soundhound recommended VTL in perfect good faith. He likes VTL. When you ask the question in the way you did people will support the equipment they own. Why wouldn't they. If they didn't they would have bought something else. Thus, you will not get objective opinions.

I won't go so far to suggest that you ignore the suggestions. They have some value. But I treat these unsubstantiated opinons with a grain of salt. If someone is supporting a given brand they owe you their reasons why. And why they did not purchase a competing piece. Just saying "it sounds good" is not good enough. Plus, the suggestion has even less value unless the system in which the piece is operating is explicitly defined.

Sytem synergy, the way in which the various pieces work together and support one another, is primary in the high end. This is the factor that results in a great system. The whole is better than the sum of the pieces. I know this may seem to be an esoteric idea but any experienced audiophile will support the idea and seek to fulfill that goal.

Sparky

[sonicbaer]

KARMA

This maybe off topic...a little

but I like to tap into some of your experience...

Let me preface this first... I'm..not young but I am new...to audiophile
stuff...while I was making plans when I was younger ..life kept getting in the way...but now I free to explore.

Is there noticable sound difference with comparably priced class A and class A/B SS amps. for example do you think I would hear a difference between a Rotel RB 1090 vs an older Threshold amp ?

onto another thought....

While out exploring one day.. I happened onto a gentleman who builds Shoreline Amplifiers, his shop is not more than a mile from my house.
He showed me the Shoreline 800 (I believe) but the size and the price scared me away..but I think I'll go back for a listen.

Thanks
Michael

this is fun stuff....why not you only live once...

[soundhound]

[QUOTE=soundhound]It can't be stressed enough about letting the sonics guide you, and only your ears can be the judge.
QUOTE]

Hopefully before dropping the money that can be spent everyone here is sensible enough to do their homework, and not purchase soley based on the opinions they read.

Simply watering the VTL seed that had been planted (I see that was being considered in George's 1st post) as mine have been quite dependable.

I prefer to leave the anal-lytical terminology to the "audiophiles".

I am too busy enjoying the music.....

[Karma]

KARMA

This maybe off topic...a little

but I like to tap into some of your experience...

.......Is there noticable sound difference with comparably priced class A and class A/B SS amps. for example do you think I would hear a difference between a Rotel RB 1090 vs an older Threshold amp ?

HI Michael,
I can't answer you question. Both Class A and A/B have their advocates. On paper, Class A should have lower distortion. But these amps have serious drawbacks which is why Class A/B amps are by far the most popular.

Often, a serious, self proclaimed audiophile will tout Class A as if there are no other alternatives. That is clearly not true. Great companies such as Krell and Levinson and Rowland have dabbled with Class A but the bulk of their product line remains Class A/B. A big part of the reason is cost.

Class A amps are beasts. They are extremely inefficient and as a result they run very hot (space heaters) and usually don't produce a great deal of power. Plus, they require huge heat sinks so they are bulky and heavy. All these factors add up to high cost. So, are these drawbacks negated by their sound? In my opinion, no.

I stick with high quality A/B amps. I think they sound just as good and I don't have to live with Class A drawbacks. Do keep in mind that my sentiments lie with tubes (the subject of this thread) which are almost universally Class A/B. But I do have a solid state HT system which is based on Krell electronics (Class A/B). I think it sounds very good.

BTW, Threshold amps were designed by Nelson Pass, one the great audio genius designers in the business. I'm not a big fan of Rotel but I have not heard all their models. I would be very surprised if the Threshold doesn't stomp the Rotel. Just my opinion. This has nothing to do with amp class. It has every thing to do with Nelson Pass.

Threshold went out business when Pass left to start his own company. I know for a fact that getting repair support for Threshold is next to impossible. That's really a shame because Threshold produced great amps.

Sparky

[dtb300]

I can't answer you question.

How true as the sound of both is very subjective to what someone would like or not. What one person likes may sound terrible to the next.

Often, a serious, self proclaimed audiophile will tout Class A as if there are no other alternatives.

Yep, just like the people in the Tube Amp camp. People like what they like otherwise they would not tout their choices as best. There is NO BEST, just what someone thinks is best.

Class A amps are beasts. They are extremely inefficient and as a result they run very hot (space heaters) and usually don't produce a great deal of power.

Yes and no. Beasts, usually; hot - yes when in Class A; don't produce a great deal of power - depends what someone thinks is a "great deal of power". If 400 Watts is "not a great deal of power", then I guess your statement is correct. I realize you said "usually", but some people may read that as all Class A is low powered.

I stick with high quality A/B amps. I think they sound just as good and I don't have to live with Class A drawbacks.

This is a very subjective statement, as I feel there are some significant differences between A/B and A amps based on what I have heard. And like you this is my subjective opinion. But others have to listen for themselves and make this determination.

Also there are SS amps out there which allow one to run in either A/B mode or A mode so one does not have to live with the space heater mode all the time. These are not amps which run in A up to a certain wattage then switch to A/B, but amps whose mode can be selected by the listener.

Do keep in mind that my sentiments lie with tubes (the subject of this thread) which are almost universally Class A/B. But I do have a solid state HT system which is based on Krell electronics (Class A/B). I think it sounds very good.

Glad you stated this, as it can show where your preferences lie which can explain some of your statements.

With all this discussion about Tube, Solid State, and also with Vinyl, Digital, etc. it all comes down to a couple of things. Budget and personal preferences to sound. Buy what you like and can afford, as each amp, source, etc. has their positives and negatives.

Dan

[george_k]

The problem with where I live is that we have limited product selection.

I've found dealers for only the following brands:
Audio Research
Cary
Jolida
VTL

Also, each dealer carries only one brand so I have to visit 4 different shops which makes auditioning a bit more painful.

It's going to be hard to objectively compare, some shops are good at lending you equipment (provided they have spares) while others only demo in store because they want to keep inventory low. Others still only let you demo at home if you buy the product (you can always return it if you don't like it)

My budget at this time is about $1000-1800US (roughly converted from canadian dollars)

I'm thinking:
I could either blow all that on a lower cost integrated offering from Jolida
or
I could blow all on a preamp and use my nad receiver as the power amp until I can afford to buy a tube power amp down the road

It's a tough call either way :-)

PS: Used tube gear is hard to find up here so no going that route unless I wait for a good deal to come up

Edit: I found a used ARC LS 15 and a used VTL TL 2.5 for sale canuckaudiomart thoughts?

[NMyTree]

HI George,
And now the basic problem with forums is demonstrated. In the post above, soundhound recommended VTL in perfect good faith. He likes VTL. When you ask the question in the way you did people will support the equipment they own. Why wouldn't they. If they didn't they would have bought something else. Thus, you will not get objective opinions.

I think your comments are accurate in general terms, when one is speaking of these types of audio forums.

But I think it's clear that in this particular thread people have suggested several gear manufactors, not all of which are owned by them (including myself and my comments).

Furthermore almost to a man/woman, everyone in thise thread is suggesting/instructing for George to audition, learn what suits his own personal tastes and preferences (in the terms of sound charactaristics and budget) and go from there.

It's all a matter of personal taste and preference in sound, in what we as individuals are trying to accomplish with our systems, what we can afford to spend or what we are willing to spend. Then there's also listening habits.

How many hours a day will you listen to your system?

What kinds of music do you listen to?

What kind of quality are these recordings/masterings of the CDs/Albums you will listen to, often?

Often in this hobby/passion we find people who want systems that deliver ultra-detail, highly-revealing, the highest resolution, punchy and in-your-face-dynamics and as much clarity as they can get.

Only to find out, after spending several thousands of dollars, that they can't stand to listen to their system for more than 20-30 minutes at a time; because it becomes highly fatiguing (listening fatigue), irritating, annoying and harsh.


Not all recordings/masterings are equal.

For example, an album (CD) such as UFO-No Heavy Petting, really has no business being played in a very revealing, ultra-detailed system. That would destroy the listening experience.

I love that album. I love a lot of albums that were not recorded or mastered very well. So a more forgiving system makes for long, pleasurable listens.

If all recordings/masterings were of the highest quality and all things were equal; than I could see going for those type of highly-revealing, ultra-detailed systems.

But I'm not about to listen to only "Audiophile Approved Super Recordings".

Most of the music I grew up listening to and loving, which encompasses 70-75% of my (over 1,300 CDs) music collection are no where near high quality recordings. But I love the music...the songs....the pieces.

I listen to music I love. The music I have an emotional connection with or music which I simply love; not just high quality recordings. That's what matters to me.

If there's an album I love and it happens to be a super-high-quality recording, than hip-hip-hooray! All the better. But often that's not the case.

For me, I work from home. The system in my office is playing for at least 6 hours of my work day (often more). So I am fortunate to live with my components day-in, day-out. And ultimately, this is one of the more important factors. Musicality, emotional connection with the music and long, enjoyable...pleasurable......joyous listening sessions. No listening fatugue, whatsoever.

Living with a system (and it's components) is different than throwing on a CD for an hour and then ending the listening.


But that's just me. Everyone is different ....everyone has different tastes, different preferences, different listening habits and we all hear things a wee-bit different.

George needs to learn about himself......what he prefers in terms of sound charactaristics and presentation.

Then don't forget room acoustics which can go a long way to making one's system and room .......sound terrific.

Just my two cents......okay...maybe a nickel's worth :B

[soundhound]

A nickel well spent Tony..............

[soundhound]

Did you make a move yet George?

[george_k]

No not yet, I've been reading about pass labs xa series (pure class a) amps, I'd like to give them a listen before making a choice. I just want to be sure it's the tubes and not the choice of amplifier topology that's making like what I hear :-)