Basic TT Questions

[fauzigarib]

Hello All,

I've been really getting into analog, and loving every minute of it.

As I mentioned in the "Turntable Advice" thread, I'm now looking at upgrading. However, there are several very basic questions that are still a little confusing to me. Here are a couple of them:

Phono Stages: Aside from the "step up" factor used for low output cartridges, what other purpose does this animal serve? I currently have an SS integrated Mcintosh MA 6400 amp, and LOVE the phono stage built in. Although it does restrict me from using MC cartridges. Are the outboard phono stages THAT muich better in sound? If you had to pick, is the TT (including the tonearm and cart) or the phono stage more essential in the"good sound"?

MM vs. MC: Age old debate, yes, I know. However, I used to read a lot about how the last thing you want to buy is a high output MC... However, now I've slowly started to read more and more stellar reviews about carts like the Clearaudio Aurum series, the Sumiko Blue point. How good or bad are high output mc's, generally speaking? Why? Is the phono stage dying out?

More to come later...

-Fauzi

[Karma]

HI fauzi,
Congratulations on getting into analog. I think you will find it a musically rewarding experience. If you have not been into it before you will also find there is a learning curve with which you already seem to be involved. :T

I will speak only from my own experience. I have not had a MM cartridge for over 20 years. Before then I had only MM's. In fact until very recently my MC's have all been the low output variety (.2 mv or less). I recently bought a medium output MC which is fantastic. It's a Clearaudio Discovery.

Generally, experience tells me that the most benefit from MC designs can only be had from the low output types. There are real physical reasons for this involving the mass of the stylus assembly. The Clearaudio Discovery is an exception that does not have a higher mass stylus because of its unique design. I know that high output MC's are gaining support in the past few years. I do think they have improved but the real reason is that they are compatable with normal MM phono stages. Thus, their real reason for existance is for economy only.

High gain phono preamps (or step up transformers or both) are generally required for low output MC's. Some preamps have enough gain (my ARC SP-11 is an example) to handle both MM's and MC's but these are rare. Usually, the phono stage of a preamp will only handle MM's or high output MC's. A purpose designed outboard phono preamp can offer, in addition to the required gain for low output MC's, better sound than those that are built into regular preamps. In my case, after the Discovery came into my system, I bought an Aesthetix Rhea phono preamp not because of gain issues but because of its sound. It's an all tube unit, very exotic, very expensive, and very wonderful. I'm in love and I'm sick!!!

But don't let get away with the idea that one must spend a fortune. NO, there are much lower cost units that work very well. But, as with most things, you get what you pay for.

I hope this helps.

Sparky

[Alaric]

I'm pretty much in agreement with Sparky. Althought I don't have much experience with modern analog gear , I know from past experience that good vinyl makes me all tingly in my happy place. There are some very good phono stages available at a decent price , but you generally get what you pay for. Not always , but you almost never get what you didn't pay for. I would pay more attention to the source and audition as many phono stages as possible. If the initial signal isn't good , the amplified signal won't be good. My $.02

[fauzigarib]

Sparky / Alaric,

Wonderful stuff! Thanks for taking the time out and replying.

Your reply regarding both issues is more or less what I expected... but had to hear it from the pros!

A couple more questions:

Check out my post in the TT Advice thread: http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpos...2&postcount=74
I needed some brand advice.

Record Cleaning:
How frequently? How? What if I don't want to spend money on a Nitty Gritty or similar VPI? Is manually a possibility? And most importantly, how bad is it for the cart to run across a dusty lp?

Grammage:
How much "better" are 180 or 200 gm issues from certain labels? I would imagine that, if you take the same release on a normal 120 gm lp vs. a 180 gm disc, you would have the same "material" on the lp. So does just the weight of the lp lead to a better sound?

A purpose designed outboard phono preamp can offer, in addition to the required gain for low output MC's, better sound than those that are built into regular preamps.

Like which ones that cost within $1500, that would outdo my mac? Any suggestions?


I'm telling you, guys.... you're letting a floodgate of questions open up by answering... there's just so much to learn!

-F

[Bob]

The phono preamp does more than amplify the signal. It is also where the RIAA equalization takes place.

Some preamps have excellent built in phono pre's. I had a Hovland 100 with a built in phono and wanted a external phono amp. I tried the Tom Evens Groove, The Arc PH7, the Rhea, and didn't hear anything better than what I already had.

In regards to record weight. The idea of the heavier weight is that it is more difficult for them to warp. I prefer 180gr. records, myself. The 200grm. records are very difficult to manufacture correctly and often are poorly done.
It is hard to reccomend brands without knowing your budget. For inexpensive, I would look at Project, the lower priced Clearaudio's (just stay away from the tangent arm), Teres, Rega, Music Hall, lower end VPI, Thoren, all would be good.

As to record cleaning machines. While the vacum aspect of the machine makes it convenient if you are cleaning a large amount of records, it is far from neccesary. Get some RRL cleaner and either a foam brush from the hardware store, or a VPI record cleaning brush, or a couple of brushes from Miracle Doctor. Follow with a distilled water rinse and a gentle drying with a soft cotton cloth (T-shirts are good) and you should be good to go. Once thouroughly cleaned an occasional distilled water wash is plenty.

[twitch54]

Bob's advise is good, with respect to manual cleaning take a look at the "Alsop system", while I'm a firm believer in a good vacum system , this device will hold you over till the $$$ allow.

With respect to TT's I'm a VPI guy, their fair pricing and good upgrade path works for me. My present set-up is a VPI Aries 3, VPI/DynaVector 20XH, ARC PH-3 phono-pre.

[miner]

For general cleaning I use an Allsop Orbitrac2 system which does OK. For deeper cleaning I use 2 MoFi brushes and my DIY cleanig solution (1 qt: 4 parts distilled water, 1 part 92% isopropyl alcohol, 1/2 cap of hydrogen peroxide, 1 drop of Ivory liquid). 1 brush for solution, 1 brush for rinse (distilled water). This does well to get into the grooves with manual power. I dry with microfibre towels. Before I upgraded to my current Rega P5 I used a Thorens TD 185 - a very good entry table.

[Karma]

......Some preamps have excellent built in phono pre's. I had a Hovland 100 with a built in phono and wanted a external phono amp. I tried the Tom Evens Groove, The Arc PH7, the Rhea, and didn't hear anything better than what I already had.

.......As to record cleaning machines. While the vacum aspect of the machine makes it convenient if you are cleaning a large amount of records, it is far from neccesary. Get some RRL cleaner and either a foam brush from the hardware store, or a VPI record cleaning brush, or a couple of brushes from Miracle Doctor. Follow with a distilled water rinse and a gentle drying with a soft cotton cloth (T-shirts are good) and you should be good to go. Once thouroughly cleaned an occasional distilled water wash is plenty.

HI Bob,
I have a couple of questions. First, with your Hoveland preamp were you using an MM or low output MC? Which one? Generally, I think there are many built-in phono stages that work very well with MM's and high output MC's. What tends to separate the men from the boys are the low output MC's.

Next, really a statement rather than a question. For 40 years I have been a record care nut. Prior to purchasing my VPI 17 RCM I tried and used every conceivable washing method. Yes, they tended to work OK in that I could get the records clean. But I never let them get very dirty to begin with. The fatal flaw is all the handling of the record. It is absolutely a given that records will be dropped, gouged, or scratched while being washed and dried.

Given that many of my records cannot be replaced I decided to buy the VPI 17. It was the best decision for the safety of my records that I have ever made. Furthermore, I use the VPI 17 to help me apply Last Record Preservative. All in all, the VPI 17 was was wise investment. I can't imagine life without it.

After the advent of CD's, used record stores became a viable source. Here, the condition of the records was highly variable and the RCM became even more indespensible. After a good visual inspection I don't hesitate to buy used. The VPI is always there to restore the records to good to excellent condition. Of course, the VPI can't remove scratches.

Fauzi: I can't advise you about $1500 phono preamps. I wanted a first line all tube unit and they are more expensive.

Sparky

[Bob]

Karma, in regards to your questions. When I had my Hovland I was, and still am, using a Lyra Titan MC cartiridge. With the Hovland you had the choice of MC or MM configuration from the factory. If you remember, a couple of years ago both Sterophile and Absolute Sound, asked "Could this be the worlds best pre-amp?'. Overstatement for sure but, shows what a value it is. To get that last little bit of improvement I switched to the ARC Ref 3 and a Manley Steelhead phono pre. A more rational thing to do would have been to keep the Hovland.

In regards to the VPI 17, absolutly a great improvement for record cleaning over hand cleaning. I wouldn't want to be without a cleaning machine myself. But, it is not necessary and is something a new vinylphile can think about in the future.

Some people seemed to have had some negative experiences with Last Record Preservative. Seems that yours has been a positive experience. No gunk on the cartiridge or change in record sonics from it?

By the way, before switching to record cleaning machines, I used a lazy susan with a terry cloth towel on it. I guess I was lucky, never hurt a record using it. Can't say that it took anymore handling than a record cleaning machine but, much more work.

Fauzi, I am not familier with your Mac. Could be that all a seperate phono pre would buy you is the ability to use a MC cartridge. For $1500 there are several excellent used phono pre's on Audiogon. Several Art Audio, and ARC PH3 SE's, for example. When looking for phono pre's don't let lower gain be a deciding factor. That can be controlled by your volume control. Good luck and feel free to ask more questions. Just don't take any of our advice as gospel, you know what suites you best.

[dknightd]

I use a Sumiko Blue point, and am happy with it. I had an AT low output moving coil cartridge, but just used a matching transformer, not a dedicated phono preamp, so perhaps did not get the most out of it. I prefer moving coil to moving magnet, they seem to be faster (though I'm sure there are exceptions.) I use the alsop orbitrac system. It seems fine. I'd like a vacuum machine, but don't use vinyl much anymore. I use one brush for cleaning, one for rinsing. I rotate rinse brush to cleaning brush and toss the old cleaning brush every once in a while. If the brush/pad is dirty, the record will get dirty - this is true of all methods.

[fauzigarib]

I moved on!

Hey there guys,

I don't mean to bring a thread back from the dead (actually, I do!), but I wanted to bring you guys up to speed on my trek through the wonderful world of vinyl.

I finally bit the bullet and invested in a "nice" table, though by all standards, it's a budget setup. I bought the Pro-ject Audio Experience table, installed with Ortofon Salsa cartridge. The deal I got was sweet in that they threw in a package of the Speed Box (a basic speed regulator) and the TubeBox, and basic phono pre.

Still manually cleaning the vinyl, and shopping like crazy on Amazon, the Princeton Record Exchange (GREAT li'l store in Princeton, NJ) and Round Again (in Toronto, CA). I'm slowly building my collection, and having the best time doing it.

Sparky, man of man were you right when you said that this is a learning process. I have read and read so much that i'm spinning vinyl in my sleep.

Now, I need to start saving for a nice phono stage... Of course your Rhea comes to mind, as does the (drool!) Manley Steelhead. But that's a little further down the road.

Anyway, I've run into kind of a snag, and I'm wondering if you can help me out. I'm still experimenting with H.O MC and MM carts, and was switching from one to the other, and I think that I loosened a connection somewhere. Now, I get a lot of crackling in my left speaker most of the time.

This is with Pro-ject's Carbon tonearm. Now my question is, what do I do? ARe the headshell wires running "naked" through the tonearm, all the way to the terminals? Or do they end at the headshell? I'm a little worried that this is a big job that I may not be able to without majorly screwing somthing up. I looked online for some sort of service manuals, and was not able to find anything useful.

Any ideas?

[Karma]

HI fauzi,
Good to talk to you again.

The wires on tone arms are done both ways you mention. If the headshell is removable then, obviously I guess, there are two sets of wires. One is for the shell and one for the arm separated by the connector. If the shell is not removable then there is probably only one set that runs the entire length of the arm.

I'm not familiar with your arm so I can't be specific. If possible, call or email the manufacturer and see what they say. I will say that crackling is unusual and is indicative of an intermittant connection. The puzzle is that such intermittant performnce in phono circuits is usually paired with hum when the connection breaks. Since you don't mention hum, I think there is a good chance that the arm is not at fault but rather the electronics specifically the preamp.

Sparky

[fauzigarib]

Hey there, Sparky!

Thanks for your advice. I think you're right, as I tested the terminals of the arm, and the connections seem to be just fine. I'm thinking that perhaps it's the left hot plug of the cartridge. I tested my leads going from my tt to the pre, and the pre to the amp, and they seem to be just fine too... so i think that it's just coming down to my cart. Though that Shure mx97e is quite a solidly built cartridge, so let's see... will try my new Linn Adikt (their entry level MM cart) and see what I get.

So here's a hypothetical question: If you were to assign percentages of contribution of the various TT components to the sound, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and, in my VERY limited experience, give it a shot:

Table (the plinth, platter, motor): 15%
Tone arm (wiring, bearing, arm style): 20%
Cartridge: 40%
Phono Pre: 25%

Am I close to other people's experiences?

-Fauzi

[twitch54]

fauzi, To me, hands down the Cartridge is the primary "sonic signature' piece of the puzzle. But keep in mind, IMO, the synergy of the ENTIRE analog front end is what makes or breaks your analog experience. Compliance matching of tonearm and cart, plinth design and placement with respect to isolation, speed and stability of platter, a phono-pre that does all of the aforementioned justice, etc, etc....... I think you have the picture.

[Karma]

HI fauzi and Dave,
Dave, I think you nailed the basic thought.

Fauzi, it is very tempting to separate out the component pieces and give them relative merit scores. But, with phono systems more than any other area in hi fi, we must think in terms of systems and synergy. Dave clearly understands this point. Many do not.

This is difficult because most of us can't simply go out and buy all the pieces that satisfy the synergy issue. Not only can we not afford to do so, we probably don't even know what to buy. So, we experiment. We will make mistakes. Some are costly.

But during the experimentation we learn how to get it right. Probably the most important lesson is: You get what you pay for. The only valid shortcut that I know of is to buy used equipment. But all this gets you is less expensive mistakes. It's still a good way to go IF you buy used stuff that was first rate when new.

Once in a while a product does come along that gives exceptional performance for the money. A good example is the Eminent Technology ET-2 air bearing tone arm. It is a very advanced precision design that uses materials and production techniques that reduce cost without causing performance issues. The flip side is one must bleed real blood to optimize its performance. But out of the box it is still exceptional.

When we start on this vinyl adventure we probably don't even have a realistic goal. As we move along the path the sounds just keep getting better. "Where does it end?", we probably ask. At some point some folks (me, for example) decide to try to extract the most from the groove. But even I come to a point where I can't afford to go further. I must stop. I must accept that there is no end point. It is an asymptotic function the final value of which we will never reach. But we can get close. To pursue the end eventually comes down to my commitment to the ideal.

I have understood for a long time that the financial aspect will eventually define my limits. As I have gained age my analog system has improved simply because I could afford better equipment and time and experience has taught me more both technically and aesthetically. And, this is important. The equipment has improved and continues to do so.

There are treasures in those grooves. To find them we must dig deep. The rewards are worth the cost.

Sparky

[fauzigarib]

Dave / Sparky,

I think both of you have summed up analong in a few well chosen words. Dave, you said "To me, hands down the Cartridge is the primary "sonic signature' piece of the puzzle." That's actually what I have been suspecting all along... I'm suspecting that I may have gone a little overboard (if there is such a thing in high end audio!) in choosing the table. I feel that the cartridge, above all, brings you the closest into that nirvana that we're looking for (of course, assuming that the synergy in your system is there.)

If I were to do it again (which I probably will), I'd probably go with a simple belt driven, single plinth table that allows you the flexibility of putting in a wide choice of arms, and then build further from there.

BTW, I figured out that darned cracking sound. Sparky, your hint about the missing hum set it off. I narrowed it down to a loose jumper in the gain setting of the phono pre. So I'm back on the road again.

Hey, any good suggestions on a nice phono pre to get started with for round about a grand?

-F

[twitch54]

Hey, any good suggestions on a nice phono pre to get started with for round about a grand?

I'm an ARC guy, so a nice used PH-3SE should fall within your budget, or the PH-3 can be had used for $650-700 and allow you $$$ for more LP's !!