question about vinyl setup

[aquaanox]

Hi all -

Just getting into vinyl and have a couple of questions. First, here is my relevant setup

1) Rega P1 turntable with Grado cartrige (MM)
2) NAD pp2 preamp
3) Cambridge Audio 640C cd Player
4) Rotel 1057 receiver
5) B&W CM7's for the fronts

My question are -

1) what is the best way to adjust the bias on the tonearm. Is there a proper way to fgure this out ? the turntable manaul is useless
2) How can i get higher volume out of the Rega ? There is a considerable difference in how LOUD the CD player plays vs the turntable at the same volume setting. I would like to reduce that difference if possible, without aftecting sound quality.

thanks!

[dyazdani]

1) I'm not familiar with the term "bias" - is this the anti-skate, VTA, ???

2) You might check to make sure you have the settings on the phono section correct. If they are OK and you have no gain adjustment on just the phono section, you could look into a higher output cartridge.

I used to use a Grado MM as well (Sonata) and it seemed to work well as far as output.

[Karma]

HI aquaanox,
The use of the terms bias and skating is identical in common meaning.

Usually, the tone arm manufacturer provides some sort of rough anti-skating calibration on the adjustment device which is related to tracking force. But, this is very crude and general. Unfortunately, it may be the only option you have.

Skating force is complex and is affected by many things including tracking force, shape of the stylus, record treatments, and friction of the groove. The friction component is constantly changing due to groove modulation. There is no single anti-skating force setting that is accurate. It's a total crap shoot.

The best way is to eliminate skating force by using a linear tracking tone arm.

Sparky

[dyazdani]

I thought it was the anti-skate - thanks, Sparky. I agree with the response as well, the general recommended setting is about as good as you can do given the variability of the forces as Sparky mentioned.

[George Bellefontaine]

I own a Technics SL-1500 direct drive. The tonearm has a stylus pressure ring for balancing the tonearm and setting stylus pressure according to cartridge mfgr. specs, and an adjustable dial for the anti-skating force which is usually set to the same value as the stylus pressure ring. How good these settings are is unknown to me but my LPs show very little wear after many years ( and I mean a lot of them ) of use. But as Sparky said, it's a crapshoot.

[Karma]

I own a Technics SL-1500 direct drive. The tonearm has a stylus pressure ring for balancing the tonearm and setting stylus pressure according to cartridge mfgr. specs, and an adjustable dial for the anti-skating force which is usually set to the same value as the stylus pressure ring. How good these settings are is unknown to me but my LPs show very little wear after many years ( and I mean a lot of them ) of use. But as Sparky said, it's a crapshoot.

HI George,
When I ran my repair shop, in addition to my normal analog activities at home over the years, I made a point of performing careful stylus inspections. I had a Shure stylus microscope, a very serious and effective instrument. It is instructive to see the different wear patterns on styli based on the type of tone arm on which the cartridge spent its life.

I could easily predict if the arm was a linear tracker or pivoted. On a linear arm (no skating force) the wear facets are symetrical. On a pivoted arm of any quality, the facets are non-symetrical with the most wear on the side of the stylus that faces the inside of the record. This tells me that most pivoted arms are undercompensated for skating force and that the inside side of the groove receives the most wear. I saw this time and time again. You do need a good microscope and proper lighting to observe the wear facets which are tiny.

This experience prompted me to buy an Eminent Technology linear air bearing arm. And I saw the symetrical facets on styli used on it. It's very convincing.

Sparky

Edited to correct spelling, never one of my stong points.

[George Bellefontaine]

This experience prompted me to buy an Eminent Technology linear air bearing arm. And I saw the symetrical facits on styli used on it. It's very convincing.

Sparky

I'll bet it is, Sparky. Also sounds like you had an interesting repair business.

[draganm]

There is no single anti-skating force setting that is accurate. It's a total crap shoot.Sparky

Baloney. Their might not be any setting on a tangential tonerm that is 100% accurate all the time but that's no reason to call it a crap-shoot.
Aquannox, if you really want to set up your table properly get a test LP like this one. The Anti-skate "test" is on side 2.

http://store.acousticsounds.com/browse_detail.cfm?Title_ID=35532

I used one and on my Linn LP12 and Bias setting on the toneram dial wound up pretty much identical to VTF (tracking force).
AFA volume levels, the TT should be pretty close to any other component. Are you sure the Cart. you have now is MM and not MC? What model exactly is it?

[Karma]

HI draganm,
I'll try not to take offense at your injudicious use of words. But it's not baloney.

First, on a tangentially (linear) tracking arm there is no skating force because there is no arm offset (or overhang) which is the cause of skating force. Thus, there's nothing to offset.

On a pivioting arm I agree that there is a best setting. But that best setting is rarely accurate. Why? Because the primary factor in skating force is groove friction. This friction is constantly changing according to the real time groove modulations. Thus, the skating force is constantly changing. The best you can do is come up with a best average which means that it's never actually right. But, fortunately, it is usually good enough. Cartridges are built with enough latitude in placement of its magnetic components to permit good sound despite the off center cantilever due to skating force.

Sparky

[twitch54]

HI draganm,
I'll try not to take offense at your injudicious use of words. But it's not baloney.

First, on a tangentially (linear) tracking arm there is no skating force because there is no arm offset (or overhang) which is the cause of skating force. Thus, there's nothing to offset.

On a pivioting arm I agree that there is a best setting. But that best setting is rarely accurate. Why? Because the primary factor in skating force is groove friction. This friction is constantly changing according to the real time groove modulations. Thus, the skating force is constantly changing. The best you can do is come up with a best average which means that it's never actually right. But, fortunately, it is usually good enough. Cartridges are built with enough latitude in placement of its magnetic components to permit good sound despite the off center cantilever due to skating force.

Sparky

As another old crumudgeon, Sparky you are correct.....anti-skating compensation is AT BEST a force based on an "average" and thus the variables you mentioned have constant change applied.

[aquaanox]

thanks all for the responses.. the cartridge is a MM Grado (not sure of the model number) but i was told that it is a high output cartridge. Basically, to get the same volume as the CD player, i need to go up about 10-15 clicks on the rotel reciever volume knob.. It plays loud, but at 80% of max volume instead of 65% of max like the CD player. Maybe its normal, maybe its not.. just want to know for sure.

the bias is the ani-skate and i think its set right, but i have no idea how to make sure if its perfect or not. the sound is good but i want to make sure im not ruining my LPs bec. of the bias not set properly. I guess ill try that LP with the anti skate test and see.

[miner]

The anti-skate should equal the whatever the counter weight on the tonearm is set to. If stylus pressure is set at 1.5g then anti-skate should equal 1.5g.

[draganm]

HI draganm,
I'll try not to take offense at your injudicious use of words. But it's not baloney.On a pivioting arm I agree that there is a best setting. But that best setting is rarely accurate. Why? Because the primary factor in skating force is groove friction. This friction is constantly changing according to the real time groove modulations. Thus, the skating force is constantly changing. The best you can do is come up with a best average which means that it's never actually right. But, fortunately, it is usually good enough. Cartridges are built with enough latitude in placement of its magnetic components to permit good sound despite the off center cantilever due to skating force.
Sparky

Maybe I read your post wrong, but it sounded like , " if you don't have a linear tracking arm you might as well not even bother with setting anti-skate because it will never work properly anyway" . It sounds like your saying microscopic groove fricition and modulation is enough to change a 1.9 gram bias setting into a "total crap-shoot"? If so, that's news to me. I havent taken any actual measurements but If I had to take a best guess at it I would think that groove modulation would only affect bias by +/- 5% at most.

[Karma]

Maybe I read your post wrong, but it sounded like , " if you don't have a linear tracking arm you might as well not even bother with setting anti-skate because it will never work properly anyway" . It sounds like your saying microscopic groove fricition and modulation is enough to change a 1.9 gram bias setting into a "total crap-shoot"? If so, that's news to me. I havent taken any actual measurements but If I had to take a best guess at it I would think that groove modulation would only affect bias by +/- 5% at most.

HI,
I sure would like to know how you are coming up with your numbers. I can't quote numbers like you can but I would say the ratio is closer +/- 500% from some hypothetical average. Just look at the size of the groove modulations not only in terms of amplitude but also frequency. What does a rim shot do to the stylus? It's vicious. The groove is like sandpaper at a microscopinc level which is why they wear out diamonds, not the softest stuff around.

You are clearly ready to put more faith in anti-skating settings than I am. Look, I have used and am still using an Eminent Technology ET-2 arm (air bearing linear) and also currently have an Graham 2.2 Deluxe arm (unipivoted). They are both great. But when it comes to skating forces, the ET-2 is clearly superior. One look at a worn stylus through a GOOD high power stylus microscope (a laboratory instrument not one you buy at a hi fi store) will show the differences in an instant.

And you most definitely read my post wrong. Your interpretation makes no sense in the context of my post.

BTW, I am not the first person to point these things out. Do some research and we can save some server space. I'm only the messinger.

Sparky

[draganm]

evrything I've ever read say's that if your stylus wears unevenly it's because the VTF or Bias was set incorrectly. If you can find something to the contrary I would be very interested in reading it.

HI,
I sure would like to know how you are coming up with your numbers. I can't quote numbers like you can but I would say the ratio is closer +/- 500% from some hypothetical average. Just look at the size of the groove modulations not only in terms of amplitude but also frequency. What does a rim shot do to the stylus? It's vicious. The groove is like sandpaper at a microscopinc level which is why they wear out diamonds, not the softest stuff around.

500% sounds pretty fantastic. It's implying that the Bias setting can go from 1.9 grams to 10 grams. I'm not saying this is impossible. The torture tracks on Test LP''s can indeed cause a stylus to totally lose contact with the groove. However, on a normal record playing typical music passages I would find this scenario highly unlikley.

[Karma]

evrything I've ever read say's that if your stylus wears unevenly it's because the VTF or Bias was set incorrectly. If you can find something to the contrary I would be very interested in reading it. 500% sounds pretty fantastic. It's implying that the Bias setting can go from 1.9 grams to 10 grams. I'm not saying this is impossible. The torture tracks on Test LP''s can indeed cause a stylus to totally lose contact with the groove. However, on a normal record playing typical music passages I would find this scenario highly unlikley.

HI,
Well, I'll try one more time. There is no correct anti-skating adjustment, only a very imprecise average. You can believe me when I say I am a long time, fully anal, analog freak with first class tone arms. I have had unrestricted access to a stylus microscope (200X magnification) both for my personal cartridges and for the hundreds of cartridges I had access to when I ran my two hi fi repair shops.

If it's experience you want it's experience I have. Styli mounted on pivoted arms wear unevenly. This applies to both my personal equipment which I adjust very carefully and the hundreds I examined in my shops. The evidence is hard to argue with. But you will argue I suspect. And I give up!!! Believe what you wish.

BTW, my cartridges do not hop out of the groove even on my most demanding demo records. I have just ordered the new release of the Hi Fi News Test Record. It has a reputation of being able to throw the stylus out of the groove. So, in a week I may not be able to make the same statement. But up to now, I can.

Sparky

[dknightd]

Karma is right. There is no value for anti skating (bias) that is always correct. The value used is always a compromise. But life is always a compromise, and compromise is not always bad - just a fact of life.
I used to use a Rabco linear tracking tonearm. No, or at least very little, tracking error but no matter how hard I tried I could not eliminate the noise associated with moving the tone arm across the record. So I went back to a pivoting arm. No doubt the new linear tracking arms are better than they were 20 years ago, but to start using one of those would require that I comprimise the amount of money I had in the bank. Luckily as I get older I loose my high frequency hearing, and digital music doesn't sound as bad to me as it did back then (plus they are getting better at doing it).

[Bob]

It plays loud, but at 80% of max volume instead of 65% of max like the CD player.

It has nothing to due with your Rega. It is based on the amount of gain in your phono stage, don't fret everything is all right.

[aquaanox]

It has nothing to due with your Rega. It is based on the amount of gain in your phono stage, don't fret everything is all right.

thanks, yes thats it. I eventually found a site that listed the gain on the pp2m and its 35db, found other preamps that are slightly more $ and have a gain of 40db, so... ill upgrade it soon.

[aquaanox]

i futzed with the anti-skate for a while, and i think ive found the sweet spot just where it doesnt slide off the beginning of records.. that value was 1.5.. i also swiched to a ortofon cartridge that makes less noise (hum) when playing towards the end of the record. things are working, and the LPs sound great.

~cheers

[twitch54]

things are working, and the LPs sound great.~cheers

COOOOOOL !!!! that's what we like to hear !!