two channel bass management

[TNRRClassic]

I need a bass management device or crossover for my two channel setup. I can send a signal right out of my cd player to my amp, and can send a signal out of my amp to my sub amp, so a high pass crossover would actually be all I need. I have looked at an Outlaw ICBM,or M&K BMC 5.1 Mini, but do not need the complexity of 5 channels. I have looked at some of the Behringer crossovers and the like, but the SN ratios on the professional gear are nowhere near as good as the HiFi gear. Also, I am using a Jolida JD100 and a JD1501RC, and would like to keep op amps and such out of the signal path as much as possible. I suppose the Marchand vacuum tube crossover would be ideal, but it is a bit dear in comarison to my other gear. I also could build something, but am not sure what is out there that might be good. What options are there for those of us who are more tube based? Thanks.

[Kal Rubinson]

Are you using an integrated amp or separates? What are they?

Kal

[TNRRClassic]

I am using a Jolida JD100 cd player and a JD1501RC amplifier. The 1501RC has a tube preamp built in, so it has volume control and needs no preamp in the line. I am running line level out of the cdp to the amp and speaker level to my mains. I am running line level out of the amp to the plate amp on my subwoofer. All I technically need is a high pass crossover to put between my cdp and my amp. I am considering building a Steve Bench tube crossover, but I haven't had time to explore all of my possibilities.

[Kal Rubinson]

What you need is a filter between the speaker outputs of your amp and the speakers since there's no where else that you can put a HP filter in the line so that it will affect only the mains and not the sub. Where is your volume control for all speakers?

Kal

[TNRRClassic]

Well, you're exactly right, as that is the only possibility as I am running it now. If I did get a crossover of some type, I could run the high pass through the main amp and the sub out right into my sub amp. What I am really looking for is a crossover or bass management device that is either extremely transparent or tube based. At this point, I am actually even considering building a three way tower to run as my two channel mains.
Thanks for all the responses. Iappreciate them.

[Kal Rubinson]

??? Since both the sub signals and the main go through your only control amp, where will you put the crossover? You need to put it where the paths are separate.

Kal

[TNRRClassic]

Boy, I just can't get anything out right when I am typing. If I want to hook things up differently, I have a few options. First, my cdp has two outputs, so one could go straight to my sub amp and I could send the other through a high pass crossover to my main amp. Secondly, I could get a bass management tool like the ICBM and split things up out of a single channel.

I am almost convinced now that I just need to put a high pass crossover between the cdp and the main amp, and run the other line level out to the sub amp.

Crossover recommendation?

[Kal Rubinson]

Boy, I just can't get anything out right when I am typing. If I want to hook things up differently, I have a few options. First, my cdp has two outputs, so one could go straight to my sub amp and I could send the other through a high pass crossover to my main amp.

Not unless your CDP has a volume control.

Secondly, I could get a bass management tool like the ICBM and split things up out of a single channel.

Yup

I am almost convinced now that I just need to put a high pass crossover between the cdp and the main amp, and run the other line level out to the sub amp.

Where do you control the volume? See above.

Kal

[TNRRClassic]

Jolida 1501RC has volume control. The front end is a tube preamp and the amplifier itself is solid state.

[pbarach]

forget about M&K

M&K closed its factory and let all of the employees go just this week: M&K website . I just bought a sub from them, it works great, but now there ain't no warranty :M

You can sometimes buy the Outlaw ICBM used on ebay (for $250+), but it's discontinued. Seems like it's overkill for a 2.1 system. The Behringer units have only balanced inputs, so I couldn't use them. I considered buying a sub that had line-level high-pass filters, but I didn't want to run long interconnects from my preamp to the sub and back again to the amp.

Here's how I added a sub to my 2-channel system: I have a 2-channel Carver preamp and amp. To use the sub with my B&W 704's, I bought a used Paradigm X-30 crossover on eBay for about $100 (I think a new one is about $150 MSRP). The preamp feeds it via RCA low-level inputs, and there are three sets of high-pass output jacks on the back (50, 80, or 120 Hz); you choose which frequency you want to use and connect the jacks to your amp. There are two subwoofer outputs. It has a "wall-wart" power supply. It sits on the equipment rack with everything else, so the interconnects between the crossover and my separates can be kept short, while the sub is probably 8 feet away.

On the front is a continuously variable low-pass filter control for the sub (variable between 35 and 150 Hz). There is also a variable phase control and a subwoofer level control.

The filters cut off at 24dB per octave. The volume control on the preamp adjusts the volume of all 3 speakers at the same time, while the level control on the preamp is only needed to adjust the volume of the subwoofer relative to the other two speakers.

This unit does everything I wanted it to do, and it seems completely transparent in its effects on what comes out of my main speakers.

[Kal Rubinson]

Jolida 1501RC has volume control. The front end is a tube preamp and the amplifier itself is solid state.

But you said that was your amp. How will you control volume on the sub if it is connected directly to the player?????

Kal

[dknightd]

I bought a used Paradigm X-30 crossover on eBay for about $100 (I think a new one is about $150 MSRP). The preamp feeds it via RCA low-level inputs, and there are three sets of high-pass output jacks on the back (50, 80, or 120 Hz); you choose which frequency you want to use and connect the jacks to your amp. There are two subwoofer outputs. It has a "wall-wart" power supply. It sits on the equipment rack with everything else, so the interconnects between the crossover and my separates can be kept short, while the sub is probably 8 feet away.

Why is Paradigm the only one smart enough to offer such a simple product at a reasonable price?
Does it have left and right sub out in case I want to do stereo subs (it says two outputs, not clear if they are left and right or summed)?
Can you tell it is in the input chain (except for what it supposed to do obviously)?

[pbarach]

Why is Paradigm the only one smart enough to offer such a simple product at a reasonable price?
Does it have left and right sub out in case I want to do stereo subs (it says two outputs, not clear if they are left and right or summed)?
Can you tell it is in the input chain (except for what it supposed to do obviously)?

The two sub outputs are both mono outputs. Frankly, I can't see the point of separate subs for left and right, since the sub shouldn't be handling signals that are high enough in frequency to be directionally located . Thus, if you set up the sub to reproduce only below 80 Hz (or lower, depending on your speakers) and you don't have the sub turned up so loudly that it is out of balance with your L & R main speakers, the only way your ears can determine the direction of origin for low frequencies will be the overtones of the instruments producing those lower frequencies. The overtones (which will be higher than the low-pass cutoff of your sub) will be coming almost completely from your main speakers.

[ThomasW]

The Behringer units have only balanced inputs, so I couldn't use them.

They will accept either balanced or single ended since the actual circuitry inside the Behringer isn't balanced.

Paradigm X-30 crossover ........The filters cut off at 24dB per octave.

FWIW the Paradigm X-30 has 3rd order not 4th order slopes.

Why is Paradigm the only one smart enough to offer such a simple product at a reasonable price?

Given the popularity of receivers and pre-pros there's very little demand for these kinds of products.

One can buy a Behringer CX2310 or 3400 for very reasonable pricing. These offer a wide range of XO points and provide true 24dB/octave L/R topology filters.

[Chris D]

M&K closed its factory and let all of the employees go just this week: M&K website . I just bought a sub from them, it works great, but now there ain't no warranty :M

Whaaaaaaa???? Wow, this is a big surprise for me. I'm going to E-mail the guy there, and see whazzup.

[pbarach]

They will accept either balanced or single ended since the actual circuitry inside the Behringer isn't balanced.
FWIW the Paradigm X-30 has 3rd order not 4th order slopes.
Given the popularity of receivers and pre-pros there's very little demand for these kinds of products.

Thanks for the correction on the crossover slope. On the Behringer, how do you connect equipment to it does not have balanced outputs or inputs. Is there some kind of simple adapter for the interconnects? Or are there interconnects that are balanced on one end, RCA on the other?

[ThomasW]

One can buy adapters at places like Radio Shack or Parts Express that convert RCA to 1/4" mono. Or one can simply buy interconnects with RCA on one end and 1/4" mono on the other.

[Chris D]

Exactly... a common issue for people setting up a BFD for the first time. I had adaptors at first, and then had Doug at Cat Cables make me a custom set that went from RCA out to 1/4" plug in.