How is supposed to sound?

[Lectoid]

I read a lot of reviews, even of stuff I am not going to buy. You see stuff like "These speakers sound muddy" or "It sounds like the singer is stepping away from the mic when the bass kicks". How does someone like me know what it's "supposed" to sound like. Maybe it's supposed to sound muddy, or maybe the singer does step away from the mic while recording. And even at that, I am nowhere near the level audiophiles are at.

I mean I can hear the difference between a pair of 20 year old pioneer car speakers and my new B&W 603s3's. But I can't hear the difference between the 601's and 602's for instance.

To give you an actual example, I received some Apple gift cards for Christmas, so I thought I would treat myself to some nicer headphones/earbuds. I ended up buying the Bang & Olufsen A8 earbuds. It was between them and the Shure E2c's, but I mainly use them at my job and really shouldn't have total isolation from ambient noise. I spent a half hour switching between these and my year old "stock" apple earbuds. I just couldn't tell a difference. I am not partially deaf or anything. I even pride myself on the ability to hear old TV's when other people can't. I mean I guess it does sound a little sharper, but maybe that's the placebo effect. I was listening to Apple Lossless tracks, a few off of a Marantz demo CD I have.

Is there a method to train ones ears? Like I said, I love my B&W's, and they sound great. But it's when you take minor steps, like upgrading the speaker wire (not trying to start a fight), that I fail to hear the difference.

[Club1820]

I am with Lectoid on this. Was meaning to eventually post my own thread regarding this but he beat me to it!

I too can tell the difference between real cheap equipment and middle/higher end equipment. But it is the small incremental improvements and nuances that I have trouble with. And when people use terms like "soundstage" around here, etc. I am not sure what they mean and how to identify.

Although I do know what "muddy" and "bright" mean and how they both sound.

So, like lectoid asked - other than listening to a whole bunch of equipment and source music to compare - how does one train oneself to become an Audiophile?

Is there an "Audiophile for Idiots" ? 8O

Thanks.

[Sim reality]

Easy... Go to a "live band" jazz club or concert. Just makes sure it's not a large venue with bad acoustics and too much amplification.

Listen to it. Can you pick out each or the instruments? Can you hear how the musician plays and not just what he plays?

Go home and listen to you system and do the same thing... How are the 2 experiences different?

[Thelonious Funk]

I think I know soundstage!

I bet I'm proved wrong though. :cry:

My maggies have a large soundstage, meaning, I can walk all over the damn room and still have a great quality of sound. My Klipsch set that I replaced with the maggies had a smaller soundstage... meaning I had a small sweet spot to listen in, (and even then, I'm so much better off with the 1.6's)

I will now wait to be instructed on how wrong I am, which is ok, because like these two, I just want to learn.

[Thelonious Funk]

Easy... Go to a "live band" jazz club or concert. Just makes sure it's not a large venue with bad acoustics and too much amplification.

Listen to it. Can you pick out each or the instruments? Can you hear how the musician plays and not just what he plays?

Go home and listen to you system and do the same thing... How are the 2 experiences different?

You're right, and that is the major upgrade...It's like you have a brand new cd collection. But where to tell a difference when we change from generic speakerwire and buy the really good stuff? (cat cables?)

It's very easy to "get it" when you make the big purchases, but I agree to a point that after you reach a certain level of audio quality, the changes are so slight it can be hard to determine if your change was positive or negative.

[Nick M]

Do as Sim Reality says. Go to a performance with decent amplification (or none at all) and get an idea of what actual instruments/voices/acoustics sound like. Then pick up some live CD's (hopefully good ones) and go home and compare (close your eyes at both places for a bit too). When you are at home with your eyes closed, are you in that hall? Can you hear the instruments/voices reflecting off the walls of the chamber or fading off into the corners of the stadium (spatial information)? This is soundstage. If you're listening to a symphony, the soundstage should obviously seem much bigger than your living room! The ambient sounds are important here, and many of them are very subtle - but crucial for achieving the illusion of a space that is physically larger than your room. Usually these are the first things to collapse as gear/sources approach their limits or your room interacts too much with the music.

Imaging within the soundstage comes hand in hand with that soundstage. Can I tell exactly where each band member is? Is that guy on drums 15' in front of me, 5' outside of my apartment? Is the singer 5' in front of me and 10' in front of the drummer? Is the guy on lead 10' to the left of the singer and 5' in front of the guy on bass? This is usually something that is severly butchered by recording studios along with the artificial blackness that comes from soundproof rooms. I like live recordings for their realism. A recording with 3 guitar tracks and 2 members of the band on guitar, or someone doing their own backing vocals... ughhh... well you get the idea.

Sit down and seriously listen for these things. If you feel like you're listening to speakers and not at the actual performance then it's time to save up and re-visit the hifi shop for auditioning, treat your room to limit it's interactions, or throw in the towel. :lol:

Edit: A few tips from my experience...

1. Look for a speaker with a rock solid cabinet that is narrow.
2. If in a medium/small room, use 2-way speakers and equalized subs.
3. Setup the system right. Proper speaker and seat placement is crucial.
4. Lots of HP idling along sounds better than "just enough".

[twitch54]

A few tips from my experience...

1. Look for a speaker with a rock solid cabinet that is narrow.

Better yet...............No cabinets at all ! Alright Planar / Electrostatic owners stand up and be counted for !!

[NMG]

I would suggest is to listen to the same recording on numerous different systems. Hear anything on the "good" ones that you don't on the "lesser" ones? What about the vocals, do they sound "mechanical" on the cheaper systems and more like a real person on the better systems? If you close your eyes, do you think you are listening to a speaker or does it sound "natural"?

With time, you'll figure up some of the nuances and you'll be able to identify when they are not there. I think that's a big point. Sometimes you don't really know what you have until it's gone :T

[Briz vegas]

One persons view on audio terms and appreciating hifi sound

Muddy was a blues singer.

After a recent CD player audition I described listening to Muddy Waters as "so real I could almost smell the smoke from his cigarette and sense the old recording studio he was playing in". I was not describing the sound, but more the place that the music and the qualities of the reproduction were taking me. I didn't have to imagine very hard as the sound just took me there. I think this means that when the sound is right you will know - it just sounds right...as the CJ advertising says.

Regarding how we describe sound, maybe we need a dictionary of terms. There is probably one on the web somewhere.

Feel free to disagree with my understanding of these terms, but bright means the highs are prominent but it could also mean that there is a lack of bass or mid bass giving a thinner sound biased towards the high frequencies. Harsh means the highs are unpleasant, opposite to smooth or silky. Soundstage is what you hear sitting in the sweet spot. Do instruments appear to be positioned beyond the speakers either side or are they all close together in the middle. Soundstage can also mean the illusion that instruments are closer or further away from you - giving you either a forward, balanced or a recessed sound (i.e. the overall emphasis one way or the other).

Imaging is how localised the sound of each instrument or voice appears. Solid imaging means that the sound of each instrument stays put and does not waiver around, it can also appears to have weight, to be very localised with clear boundaries. If there is poor imaging the sound of a singers voice of the instruments is always dispersed.

Muddy is veiled, unclear, like someone threw a blanket over the speaker. This can sometimes be easier to pick when you later hear a less veiled system with all its sparkling detail the almost creates images of the instrument or of the singer in your mind..

I think the best way to gain an appreciation of music and hifi is to enjoy it whenever you can. Find some friends with similar interests and listen to their systems. Its great fun listening to other people’s hifi as almost invariably it does some things better and some things worse than your own. Its then that you start to find the words to describe what you are hearing. This all assumes that you are the sort of person that likes to grab a drink, pull up a pew in the sweet spot and put everything else out of you mind for a while and enjoy all the nuances of a piano concerto or the intensity of the vocals or the character of the bass notes from your favourite death metal group.

It makes sense to me, after all isn't it only the eskimos who have a hundred different words to decribe snow.

[BTB]

I think that most of us are pretty eager to get ourselves "informed" when we first get started in audio. I certainly was. Now, a few years into it, having experienced may different brands of equipment and various technologies, I've mostly lost interest in reading bundles of reviews and learning all the "hi fi speak" for one simple reason:

Hi Fi is an experience. A very subjective experience at that! The reviews you read, the opinions we share in discussions or on forums like these are all highly subjective judgements, the terminology used is merely a vehicle to describe the listening experience. I'm not trying to diminish your enthusiasm; I guess I'm just saying that the best thing to do if you're new to this game is listen. Listen to as much gear as your interest permits... that's how you'll learn to tell the differences, and learn what you like best. In other words the emphasis is on the experience. A lot of the time the Hi Fi speak and mumbo jumbo gets in the way more than it actually helps.

That said, if you want to learn a bit more about the most common hi fi terminology the UK publication "Hi Fi Choice" has a fairly comprehensive glossary printed as a standard feature in every issue.

Then, as others have already said... go out and listen to the "real thing" every once in a while... a lot of guys get caught up in a sort of "Hi Fi bubble" where not only all objectivity; but (much worse still), the whole point of Hi Fi (to faithfully reproduce REAL MUSIC) is lost. In other words the emphasis should again be on the experience of MUSIC with the obsession about sound quality and the performance of equipment coming a distant second... in my humble estimation.

Lastly... regarding the "training" of your ears... your ears cannot be trained to hear a difference that isn't there. High end audio is littered with fancy looking bits of gear and impressive sounding technologies (to read about I mean) and hype and sales talk all of which may not actually DO anything to enhance the listening experience.

Remember this; it will save you alot of heartache and money: 1) If you cannot hear a difference, then to you... THERE IS NONE. 2) The best upgrade is new music.

[fordster]

Of course if you ask a Naim owner they'll tell you that soundstage is not important and that some of the people above should stop listening for the guitarist who belches on track3 of the CD and just enjoy the music! That's not my opinion by the way, just something I cam across on the forums over at the Naim site when somebody asked what a Flat Earther was. Various people went on to post comparisons using Naim and Krell as 2 different ways of listening to music. As you'd expect they preferred the way Naim do it. Never having listened to either brand I'm in no position to comment.

All I know is I can usually tell the differnece when I change components, be it an amplifier or speaker cable. This also includes small differences but that could just be because I know something as changed. I've not done any proper blind tests on my my set up. I have got my wife to try and tell differences though and she usually can even if shes doesn't know what has changed. I personally think it's easier to notice most differences by downgrading rather than upgrading. Leaving aside big changes like swapping your amp or speakers for something further up the hifi chain and taking the examples of minor upgrades (e.g. swapping cables). If you plug in new cables and are not sure if they make a difference then leave them in for a while (couple of weeks) to get used to them and then swap the old cables back in. I'd suggest that you are more likely to notice a difference that way. That would also apply for equipment changes too.

As for the earphones that serves you right for buying B&O earphones! I'm going to be controversial here and suggest that B&O are just like Sony and Bose, all marketing and no real substance.

[Lectoid]

I know about the earphones. I asked about the return policy before I bought them. I think I am going to take them back, they sound a little better than the stock ones, but not $160 better. I had two $100 gift cards at the apple store, and nothing to spend it on. I can't say I fell for B&O's marketing, because I've never seen any of it. I bought them because I read some positive reviews and I work in an office and really shouldn't have total isolating earphones. I spend most of the day with just one bud in anyways. I think I'll just stick to the stock ones. But I digress...

I think I still have a lot of work with just speaker positioning. Right now their on either side of my desk, over a foot from the back wall. My Paradigm Titan's are now on cardboard boxes behind me acting as surrounds. This is largely due to the fact that we're moving in two months and I don't know how I am going to set my stuff up there.

I appreciate all the responses. I think you're right BTB, I'm just going to have to put time into it and listen.

Is there a good reference, or starting point, about speaker placement. My new listening room is going to be 10ftx10ft :cry: . I didn't know it would be that small before I bought my floorstanders. It's faux hardwood floors so I know I need to get a big rug. And since it's a house, I can pretty much do anything I need to to that room to stop unwanted reflections.

[Nick M]

It's going to be extremely difficult to make anything with size or lots of low-end gusto dissapear in a room that size. I would look into a quality pair of monitors backed up with an equalized sub.

[BTB]

Hi Lectoid

Cool, no problem. My response went that way because of my own experience when I was first getting into audio... I spent a truckload of cash "upgrading" constantly... pumped full of reviews and terms I didn't really understand looking for some non specific audio thrills.

Basically if I had taken a bit of time to listen, just for the sake of listening to get some experience and for enjoyment I would have made smarter upgrades and saved alot of money along the way.

Anyway, just a couple of technical things from your post:

10 x 10ft might just be borderline (too small) for the 603's (great speakers by the way, should have kept mine longer than I did ) As you've no doubt figured out, keep them well clear of corners, and as much space as you can behind them. Then again, they are British speakers, designed to work well in smaller spaces (like a typical UK living room) so you should be OK.

More importantly, square rooms are very efficient at producing standing waves, so once you've settled speaker & furniture positions you might want to experiment with acoustic treatments, but seek professional assistance if you aren't confident... again, use your ears still you achieve the results you're happy with.

Regarding placement, start by following the instructions contained in your owners manual until it's right for you.

[Lectoid]

I was big into car audio years ago. One way we used to "search" for rattles and vibrating panels was to use a paper towel tube. Kind of like a directional mic for your ear. Would you suggest this as a good way to find reflections in a room?

Like I said, I can do anything to the room within reason. I don't know if the wife will go for carpeting the walls. But I think if I made simple panels to absorb the sound, that wouldn't be so bad. We two big living/family rooms that I am trying to convince her would make excellent listening rooms. But I spend almost all of audio time in front of my computer, so that's kind of where I'd rather have them.

[BTB]

Unless you're dead set on making panels yourself, you might find that the wheel has already been invented on the home audio market... :W

A few months back I put some "Auralex" products into my listening environment, which had very positive results. I'm not an expert in the area of room treatments, so I don't know how your car audio techniques would work in the home environment.

I just know that too many reflective surfaces with too little absorptive material is bad and that likewise too much absorption will render the room "dry" which will not yield very natural sonic results either. Hence the suggestion that you treat the room on a trial and error basis by loaning stuff from a supplier till it sounds "right" and return what you don't use, or just get a specialist in. Worst thing you can do is go overboard and "kill" the room... a bit of liveliness is a good thing.

[NMyTree]

Well, we have to express ourselves, what we hear and what we prefer from our respective systems in some way. While a lot of these terms (Bright, Smooth, Warm, Musicality, Soundstge, Dry, Clinical, Forward, Polite or laid back, veiled...etc) have become cliche'; it is the only way to describe what you hear or prefer in a system.

But the thing is, that every system and the combination of different components, in each individual's respective system; may deliver different results. Not to mention we all don't hear the same thing because we are all different and so are our ears and brains. And every room is different, acoustically speaking and in dimensions.

You also have the fact that some people are more sensitive to high frequencies than others. Some more sensitive to low bass or treble. So you'll find that some people's preferences are born from these sensitivities.

That's why some people prefer a more laid back, polite presentation from their audio system.

Then sometimes you may find that there are some terrible gear designs out there, which provides the listener with nothing but harsh, edgie, irritating sounds. No music to speak of.

Definitely something to take into consideration.

You don't have to cover your walls in carpet or spend a fortune on all those professional acoustic panels. Would be nice if we could all afford to build and create a perfect room, which caters to our individual prefences and tastes. But not all of us can afford these expensive panels to properly treat a room.

There are other less expensive and aesthetically pleasing options which are effective.


Examples of some of the things I did.

For every window I installed bamboo blinds (matchstick or the the ones with the wider blind slats will do), with thick, heavy curtains over them (I prefer 100% cotton or anything with 70% or above cotton for my curtains). My curtains are 84" in height. I believe the the taller the better with curtains.

Bamboo blinds with curtains over them aids in diffusion.

Here are some links to what I bought and use, so you can get an idea:

My Blinds: http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...086&lpage=none

My Curtains: http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...688&lpage=none

Other example of bamboo blinds: http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...448&lpage=none

I also use bamboo bookshelves filled with hardcover books as makeshift bass traps. You can find inexpensive bamboo bookshelves, if you hunt around a bit. If you already have a lot of books (as I do) then you're all set. If not, spend a Saturday going to a few yard sales or flea markets, and you can get yourself 100-200 harcover books for a total of $20/30. I take the glossy covers off of them and place them on the bookshelf.

Bamboo decorative screens or wooden ones with fabric over them, also provide nice absorbtion or diffusion, depending on how you want to use them. You can pick up some decorative throw blankets (cotton or wool) when they are on clearance or sale, and throw them over the screens.

Hell, you can go all out and buy a foam mattress pad, cut to any size you want, drape it over the decorative screen and cover it with a throw blanket; if you feel you need more absorbtion.


Such as this one.... http://www.amazon.com/Comfy-Foam-Mat...UTF8&s=bedbath

You can find a lot of this stuff cheap, if you search around for sales and clearance items. I mean really cheap. It's amazing what you find when you take a little time to research and hunt it down.

Eliminate glass, metal or iron knick-knacks from the room and use ceramic stuff, if you must have decorative vases and knick-knacks.

Fluffy pillows, throw blankets, thick cusioned furniture, carpeting, area rugs; all help in dampening the rooom. There's a lot of other things you can do, besides what I have mentioned here.

Now, we may see someone come in here and talk about technical measurements and the asborbtion capabilities of the materials I have mentioned. They may poo-poo the suggestions I have made.

Are these methods I have suggested perfect? No.

Are they equal to going out and spending a small fortune on professional acoustic panels and bass traps? Probably not.

But it sure does work and are very effective for much less of a cost.

Several years ago, a local Ayre dealer told me polyuretyhane mattress pads were a suitable alternative to professional acoustic panels and bass traps.

He said, you get about 95% of the effectiveness for 300% less cost. The other 5% could be made up with a medium sized wool blanket for $20.00.

Although every dealer of the professional acoustic panels and bass traps will swear to you that it does not work and that you have to buy the professional acoustic panels and bass traps

Just take it one step at a time ....one thing at a time and you'll find a easy, inexpensive way to fix room acoustics. But like BTB said, be careful not to go overboard and over-dampen the room.

[Lectoid]

Excellent advice.

Basicly, I have a 10x10 clean slate. I can, within reason, do anything to the room I need to. My only certainties are my 4 speakers, some yet-to-be-bought stands, and my Bell oggetti rack I got from craigslist for $25 (rock!!). We might get a futon for when company comes.

I'm gonna stop thinking hard about this until I am in that room.


Though this brings us back to my original point. How do I know that where I've placed my speakers is the ideal spot. You may say "Does it sound good to you?". That's my problem, I don't know. Should there be more bass? Should there be less? I guess I'll just figure that out with time. But this is where those minor difference are difficult for me to tell. If I move the speakers 6 inches either way, I just don't think I could tell the difference.

But I can't wait to give it a shot.

[Club1820]

I just wanted to let everyone know that I have thoroughly enjoyed reading everone's responses to this thread and the questions asked both by Lectoid and myself.

I especially thought BrizVegas & BTB's responses were very informative and hit it right on the head. As for going to a Jazz club or live concert anytime soon? Not going to happen because of my 3 & 1 1/2 yr old rugrats. But I understand what you mean.

I guess I will just continue with setting up and experimenting with my newly finished basement and listening to lots of music. At some point I will be posting pictures of how I have everything set up and solicit opinions on that.

Keep the responses coming if anyone else wants to chime in. This is all very interesting, informative, and helpful!!

Thanks.

[Lectoid]

I'm sitting here listening to my speakers thinking, this sounds awesome. I guess I know that it sounds good when I play a song and I smile. And it can only sound better.

[twitch54]

I'm sitting here listening to my speakers thinking, this sounds awesome. I guess I know that it sounds good when I play a song and I smile. And it can only sound better.

believe me it can get even better........... for when you're listening to the "music" and not the "speakers" you will have reached a sonic sense of nirvana !!

[Briz vegas]

Of course if you ask a Naim owner they'll tell you that soundstage is not important and that some of the people above should stop listening for the guitarist who belches on track3 of the CD and just enjoy the music! That's not my opinion by the way, just something I cam across on the forums over at the Naim site when somebody asked what a Flat Earther was. Various people went on to post comparisons using Naim and Krell as 2 different ways of listening to music. As you'd expect they preferred the way Naim do it. Never having listened to either brand I'm in no position to comment.

I can do that for you. I picked up my Naim 5X & flatcap on Saturday. Its still running it (in fact it is playing now) but it does soundstage quite well. I think what the Naim-etts are on about is the degree of ambient sonic information - you tend to get an emphasis on the instruments, vocals and the song rather than the ambient information. This makes it alot easier to "get" the song. I'm playing Beth Orton's Trailer Park right now. I've owned it for years and only ever liked 2 songs as the other tracks seemed a bit unfocused - now the songs work - on this CD at least the Naim works a treat.

[fordster]

That's a good explanation, thanks. Have you ever listened to any Krelly gear and if so how does that compare. I have to admit Naim will be on my list the next time I'm able to upgrade (although that could be some time in the future) and I'll probably listen to some Krell gear too if the budgest stretches that far!

[BTB]

Though this brings us back to my original point. How do I know that where I've placed my speakers is the ideal spot. You may say "Does it sound good to you?". That's my problem, I don't know. Should there be more bass? Should there be less? I guess I'll just figure that out with time. But this is where those minor difference are difficult for me to tell. If I move the speakers 6 inches either way, I just don't think I could tell the difference.

But I can't wait to give it a shot.

Hi Lectoid...

Gonna take a shot at answering your question directly...

Speakers of all shapes & sizes are designed to work best in certain locations. Take your 603's for instance... from everything I've read about them & from personal experience they work best in a "free space" location, i.e well clear of walls or room boundaries of you prefer.

Before I get to my point consider this (forgive me if you know all of this already! ops: ):

The goal of quality hi fi equipment is realistic and neutral playback of recorded music. To achieve this end, a good loudspeaker should have a fairly balanced sound from the highest to the lowest frequencies. In other words no part of the audio band should dominate. So (for example) a speaker where the bass booms so excessively so that your can bearly hear much high frequency information is probably not such a good speaker.

Now your 603's are as nuetral a speaker as you can get for sensible cost. But... this is where placement becomes important... if you were to place your 603's hard up against a wall or in a corner (i.e NOT in free space, you would probably get really boomy bass, which would be very noticable to you. So basically if you can afford to place them in free space as far as possible (which might be difficult considering the dimensions of your room considering all the other placement parameters) you should be fine. As for soundstaging and imaging, the speaker will give you 95% results if placed according to the manufacturers placement guidelines, with the last 5% left over for minor fine tuning adjustments.

Please bear in mind that speakers and the room they are placed in are a very important partnership to consider, simply because any given speaker will react well or poorly in a given room based on how good a match their respective physical properties are for each other. That's why you can't really use big speakers in a small room or small ones in a big room. They just don't work.

So... hoping not to confuse the issue... these are basic guidlines to check if your speakers are placed correctly (for stereo replay) assuming that all the above factors are in order:

1) No part of the audio band should dominate.
2) You should have adequate seperation of channels (check the guidelines in your owners manual for minimum horizontal distance between the speakers) 3) You should have a solid centre image (the music should appear to "float" between the speakers when you are sat in the sweet spot)

Clearly there are other factors, but this should be a start... let me know if I'm on the right track here to answer your specific question?