CD noise

[Angioguy]

Hello,

Trying to elucidate an answer to a disturbing problem: I just bought a preowned Musical Fidelity Tri vista SACD player for my system. So far, I have been playing conventional cd's (SACD's are in the mail) on it. On two separate cd's I hear a terrible stuttering, popping noise at specific points in the music which necessitates stopping the music. Thing is, when I play the same disc on my Sony CD megachanger, I never hear the popping-- the cd plays straight through!

Wouldn't it make sense that this should be a feature of the disc itself rather than a component of the system (ie, cable, power/pre amp, cd player, speaker)? If the disc is dirty/scratched, would that explain this? I would like to believe that a $5000 cd player would be able to negotiate cd imperfections better than a $300 Sony or would it just amplify them?

Your thoughts?

Thanks in advance

[Victor]

Angioguy,

It is too bad that you are having this problem. Chances are you have a defective $5000 player.

To answer your question, - well… It is wrong to think that a $5000 player is superior in any regard to the $300 player.

What you get for more money is brand name, warrantee, occasionally better build quality, often somewhat better and more expensive components, more sophisticated features, etc. You do not, however, get better sound and you definitely do not get a better capability to extract the digital data from the CD. That is to say the laser pick up mechanism and error-correction procedure are fundamentally the same no matter how much money you spend. Even the $39 Wall-Mart special will be just as capable to extract the data from the CD as any $5000 player.

regards,

Victor

[kurtholz]

I think i have heard everything now, a $39 wal-mart player sounds just like a $5000 player

unbelieveable what people say

Kurt

[Kevin P]

Assuming the disc isn't damaged, the player shouldn't skip or pop, regardless of whether it's a $30 discman or a $5000 Musical Fidelity, unless it's defective.

If the player doesn't play discs correctly, and it isn't the discs, then it's the player. Take it back and get it fixed or exchanged.

[Boombox]

I would like to believe that a $5000 cd player would be able to negotiate cd imperfections better than a $300 Sony or would it just amplify them?

Considering that the disc is not damaged, it could also be that the copy made by the distributor is not perfect.

Consider that the algorithm used to extract information on the disc is of such that in the event that a bit is read incorrectly, the machine will try to reread that bit, trying its best to extract every little "bit" of detail from the disc, until it registers a "success" allowing the disc to continue to spin on....in the event that it does not register a success, the disc starts "stuttering". It just might be that this algorithm is "overly" sophisticated with respects to the $39 "Wall-mart" cd player.

In our laser labs, the guys spend hours to focus a laser to "absolute" perfection using high qualiy lenses. As always, there are budgetry constraints that puts a limit on th quality of lens that can be bought or manufactured......back to the $39 cd player....obviously, their focusing lens is the same as that in the MF player as is their transport mechanism...

...if you were only to consider the amount of lateral vibration a disc undergoes due to the huge angular speed it experiences during playback, it is safe to assume that if the spinning disc is allowed to vibrate violently*(axis of pressession is not perpendicular to the plane of the spinning disc at all times), the laser, which most likely has a wavelength of 600 - 700 nm (I'm not sure), can traverse a greater distance to get to the disc and back to the receiver on one section on the disc and then travel a much shorter distance from laser to receiver on another section of the disc creating timing problems.....clearly, both the MF player and the Wall-mart player keeps the disc absolutely level while spinning.....based on these few points, I would believe that the cheaper player performs exactly as the expensive player.....

*Here I would estimate that the disc's average lateral movement is about 0.1mm, which equates to about 280 - 340 extra or less wavelengths fitting into this distance....

[chinets]

I believe it is a faulty player so change it before you get your SACD in the mail ,then you will be terribly disappointed.
Again, the more expensive a player is ,the more revealing of bad CD or scratches ,and they willl show easier and heard more on any speaker just like DVD players.
An expensive DVD player will show all imperfections in bad copies and will not play copies that are burnt etc... but a cheapo Sony etc DVD will show No errors and might play all copies with scratches and all!! A slut that would accept and play anything, but the more expensive players are very particular and finicky about playing anything that isn't 100% perfect and then you hear or see 100% perfect results if they are fed Top quality material with NO defects.
Just something to ponder on IMHO!!!
My 2 cents,
Cheers

[Victor]

I think i have heard everything now, a $39 wal-mart player sounds just like a $5000 player

unbelieveable what people say

Kurt

Kurt,

There is no magic here. I fact there is no magic in electronics at all.

To wit, all commercially available electronics is built to a certain predetermined standard. It is true of the refrigerator in your kitchen and it is definitely true of ANY CD Player you happen to purchase regardless of the price paid.

The laser pick-up mechanism is manufactured by a very few companies in the world located in the Far East and one in Europe as far as I know and everybody buys from them. There is only ONE electrical standard for this mechanism because otherwise the CD data pick-up simply will not work. Although a few companies make that thing and they do compete in the market place the overall quality is so very similar that the price for the mechanism is literarily close within a few cents. The availability and quantity dictate prices, not the quality of the part.

The mechanical assembly of the laser pick-up does differ model to model and here we do have units that are better then others. Naturally a more sophisticated mechanics is more expensive, but it is not necessarily better for the end user.

Would I want to have a better built mechanical assembly in my CD player? Sure, I would. Why? Because an engineer in me says that it is a right thing to do, as it will offer me greater reliability and possibly will make the error correction electronics work less. Does it give me better sound? Absolutely not.

The error correction facility is a mandated part of any CD Player, i.e. you cannot manufacture a player without it. This facility is a hard-coded integrated circuit commonly available or a code embedded as a part of an ASIC (application specific integrated circuit) proprietary to the manufacturer. This code is unique and does not change player to player. It is the same in the $39 Wall-Mart special as it is in the $10K Levinson product.

The mechanical sophistication of the laser pick-up works with error correction to ensure a skip-free CD operation. The better mechanics, - the less effort the error correction electronics needs to do. However, the error correction process is so good that even a $39 Wall Mart special will play without perceptual skips even if you shake it violently. This is why we have those portable battery-operated CD Players specifically designed for joggers, - they work very well indeed.

So, - where does it leave us? You can forget about the sound quality discussion based on the mechanics or the electronics of the laser pickup mechanism, - it will not fly due to what I wrote above. You can discuss sound quality based on the D/A chips, anti-imagining filter, power supply design and, perhaps, the Mute facility implementation. Here the things are very different player to player.

Does the $5000 player do better then the $39 Wall Mart special in those regards? I sure hope so. Does it result in a perceived better sound? My experience shows that it does not to the extend of the price differential, - that is to say the improvements are marginal, but I admit they are there and are audible. Mostly the noise is lower in a more expensive player and the THD content is more forgiving there also.

However, when you spend around $300-600 on a CD Player, - all bets are off at this point and spending any more buys you the bragging rights but not better sound.

Victor

[Alloroc]

The laser pick-up mechanism is manufactured by a very few companies in the world located in the Far East and one in Europe as far as I know and everybody buys from them. There is only ONE electrical standard for this mechanism because otherwise the CD data pick-up simply will not work. Although a few companies make that thing and they do compete in the market place the overall quality is so very similar that the price for the mechanism is literarily close within a few cents. The availability and quantity dictate prices, not the quality of the part.

....laser pick up mechanism and error-correction procedure are fundamentally the same no matter how much money you spend.....

Hi,

Your fundemental point is of course correct as was your orignal statement.

One can only assume that your point was mistunderstood.

V.

[NonSense]

The laser pick-up mechanism is manufactured by a very few companies in the world located in the Far East and one in Europe as far as I know and everybody buys from them. There is only ONE electrical standard for this mechanism because otherwise the CD data pick-up simply will not work. Although a few companies make that thing and they do compete in the market place the overall quality is so very similar that the price for the mechanism is literarily close within a few cents. The availability and quantity dictate prices, not the quality of the part.

The mechanical assembly of the laser pick-up does differ model to model and here we do have units that are better then others. Naturally a more sophisticated mechanics is more expensive, but it is not necessarily better for the end user.

Would I want to have a better built mechanical assembly in my CD player? Sure, I would. Why? Because an engineer in me says that it is a right thing to do, as it will offer me greater reliability and possibly will make the error correction electronics work less. Does it give me better sound? Absolutely not.

The error correction facility is a mandated part of any CD Player, i.e. you cannot manufacture a player without it. This facility is a hard-coded integrated circuit commonly available or a code embedded as a part of an ASIC (application specific integrated circuit) proprietary to the manufacturer. This code is unique and does not change player to player. It is the same in the $39 Wall-Mart special as it is in the $10K Levinson product.

The mechanical sophistication of the laser pick-up works with error correction to ensure a skip-free CD operation. The better mechanics, - the less effort the error correction electronics needs to do. However, the error correction process is so good that even a $39 Wall Mart special will play without perceptual skips even if you shake it violently. This is why we have those portable battery-operated CD Players specifically designed for joggers, - they work very well indeed.

Victor

I wouldn't claim to be an expert, but I will throw out a few idea's that could argue why a more expensive player could offer better sound aside from just better raw material.

Playback from a CD is a real time sytem. When the transport mechanism encounters errors it has a limited time to resolve the errors using the reed-solomon FEC algorithm. Systems do have options as to how this is implemented. Standard asics are available using (lets say) 8x oversampling, or possibly high speed dual Analog Devices Tsharc DSP's with 256x oversampling. (Higher clocked parts give many more interations of an algorithm to resolve errors. That is why programs such as EAC are so popular for ripping, as it samples over and over to reslove errors without the time constraint) When the finite period for reslolving errors is complete, the data needs to be clocked into the DAC's, with or without errors. The better the starting data, the greater chance of the correct data being resolved by the end of the conversion period. The more accurate the data being clocked to the DAC's the better the playback. Without snooping the data, it's hard to determine if all the data is error free. We would like to think, that in most cases there is no difference.

More powerful systems may also take advantage of upconversion and higher speed DAC's. Upconverting 44.1kHz to 96 or 192kHz offer the opportunity to apply digital interpolation between the conversion samples. Possibly providing a smoother resolved waveform. Success can be mixed, but it is hard to argue that better players push the technology. What you now find in $39 players is the technology that was once only available in players costing several thousand dollars. The technology has definitly matured but I still believe there are a few advances to be made. These advances will made by companies with players that have sufficient margin to fund new development. However, there is no doubt that entry level players are better than ever.

Also, the players that joggers use contain deep FIFO memories. The CD transport buffers approx 45 seconds worth of data into dual port ram. With oversampling and a tailored algorithm, the CD transport can typically fill the RAM faster than the data is retrieved. When sampling errors occur that cannot be resolved, the DAC's draw down the memory in anticipation of catching up later when the momentary jarring stops. If you violently shake the transport for 45 seconds causing contiuous errors, the memory will run out of data and skipping will occur. That is why flash devices such as MP3 players are so popular as portable playback devices.

[PewterTA]

Okay............

Obviously we forget that parts can be built to different standards and still PERFORM at the base standard... Which is why CD players can sound better that are a lot more expensive, they use better built parts...

Back to the original question.

The popping and skipping is caused by the laser tracking being out of alignment. If the disc is not scratched severely and it is not dirty the laser should read it properly (again, some lasers track better than other and will read through the scratches/dirt where others won't), then the problem is that it just needs to be realigned.

And yes it is possible that the laser in the Sony player will read through dirty marks better than the MF laser. A lot of this has to do with the "quality" or "accuracy" needed of the data stream coming from the laser assembly. So where the Sony just does some minor error corrections, the MF is (in escence) displaying the increased problems of the laser having to re-read a portion of the disc.

Find a local MF service place and have them test it and re-align the laser. Then you should be good.

I had this happen to a crappy pioneer player than I had, fixed it right up.

[bleeding ears]

Angioguy, is it only the one disc that has the problem ?

Does the disc have the problem always in the same spot (or part of a song)

If it always occurrs in the same spot, I would say it is the disc.

If it is only the one disc that has problems then once again I would say it is the disc.

Some discs are not perfect for some reason unknown to me.

If the problem occurrs at different points and on a number of discs then I would think it is the player.

goodluck with it.

Let us know what you work out.

[beden1]

Simply put . . . you may want to try and clean the player with any product intended for this . . . or, have the player adjusted. Hi-end players seem to get out of adjustment very easily. There may be just a simple reason for what you described.

[kurtholz]

Hi Victor

I am sure you believe how you feel, i will give you that respect, but after owning and having auditioned a dozen or more players, i just can't go along with the " they all sound the same theory", i played around last night with my Arcam dv29 and Consonance on CD playback, had my wife listen to many different CD's, ( she is a total non-believer but has good ears) while blind folded

even she nailed it 9 out of 10 times, then had her do the same to me, 10 for 10

there is a massive difference in my opinion, my most recent assesment was a mcIntosh,and a classe i auditioned for several weeks, they all sound different to me

and i think 99% of the market would agree

do i believe in 20K CD playback, no way, but there are many in that $5k range that do wonderful things

my opinion

of course, i also believe in expensive cables, and amp's

good luck

Kurt

[David Meek]

Please listen up:

We're not turning another thread into a diatribe for "they all sound the same".

HTG Admin

[Angioguy]

CD noise

Hello All,

Thanks for taking the time to address this issue. I'm afraid I must agree that the problem lies within the player, itself. I went back to the original source material, to the specific interval in the music where I originally encountered the popping on the SACD player, and the music there was clean THIS time around. I then played a different cd, and heard the popping on two separate tracks. I played these tracks on the Sony-- it played straight through the music, without incident-- you'd never know there had been a problem on the MF machine.

I'm hoping that if this is a matter of laser mis-alignment, that it is repairable--hopefully, without too much expense (warranty expired 2 years ago). Going to contact service center-- and the guy who sold this to me from Audiogon!

Thanks again

[Alaric]

I had a $69 Toshiba multi-player that played everything I put in it-probably would have played a coaster-but it sounded awful. I got a better SACD player and found it was much more sensitive to dust/disc defects. CDs I burned seem to have a very limited shelf life on my better player. It sounds so much better I just burn a new one when needed , but I've heard others mention that their CD players are less tolerant of minor disc imperfections than less expensive ones. One particular Cd "skips" , etc. in different places every time . I burned a copy of it and the copy plays fine.
Obviously there are some dynamics at work beyond my knowledge , but maybe a better player reproduces imperfections with more accuracy?

[Brandon B]

I have a 20 year old Sony Carousel CD player that will not play any copy of Hotel California by the Eagles. It locks up several seconds into the second song, on every of the 5 or so copies I tried.

Obviously, the disk plays fine for most of the world.

Some players are sensitive to things on discs that other players, better or worse, are not. My current Sony SAC/CD player is also more senstive than every other optical drive in the house. It refuses to play the LOTR FOTR soundtrack CD we have anymore. I had to rip and reburn it to be able to play it on my main system. But it will play the Eagles album.

BB

[Chris D]

That reminds me of earlier generations of DVD players that had a problem with reading "dual layer" DVD's. The Matrix was a common one... would freeze or at least hiccup at layer changes for many players.

[dyazdani]

That reminds me of earlier generations of DVD players that had a problem with reading "dual layer" DVD's. The Matrix was a common one... would freeze or at least hiccup at layer changes for many players.

Yep, mine (older player) did that - the menus were very slow as well.

[David Meek]

For a period of time in the early DVD days several forums tracked the players and the various DVDs that wouldn't play on each model. :roll:

[Chris D]

Yup, to this day, I can still watch "The Matrix" and tell you where the layer changes used to be.

[Boombox]

That reminds me of earlier generations of DVD players that had a problem with reading "dual layer" DVD's. The Matrix was a common one... would freeze or at least hiccup at layer changes for many players.

Incidently,

my RDV1040 Rotel ALWAYS freezes for a noticible split second with layer changes on all DVDs I play since I bought it new mid last year...my fiance's significantly cheaper LG DVD/VCR combo does not suffer the same glitch....

Defective or common with the RDV1040?

[Angioguy]

I have just learned that this sacd player (of which something like only 500 were made)-- Tri Vista SACD-- has a history of problems with the laser, transport, etc. I spoke to the US Service rep for Musical Fidelity and he believes it is a laser misalignment issue. He said these laser pick-up systems are auto aligning and can't be adjusted. Moreover, no replaceble parts are available-- they have been discontinued by Philips. Warranty is only 1 year, and this unit is 2 years out, so I guess I'm screwed???

[PewterTA]

hmmm that sucks big time. It's a shame there's not a laser pickup assembly available now...I wonder if there's anything that could be put in it's place?!

[Arneson]

For 5K I would want the player
to take the disk out of the case for me and play it.

[kurtholz]

You might try one of the aftermarket guru's who do upgrades to different players, maybe they could put in a new mechanism for you and tweak it at the same time

good luck

Kurt

[Angioguy]

Thanks Kurt,

Can you recommend anybody in the NY metro area?

[kurtholz]

sorry, i havent used any of them, though i have been tempted, there are several, look over audiogon, there are several there

good luck

Kurt

[chinets]

Kurt,

Are Magic marbles Included In the GURU laser fix up mix???

Just checking!!!

Keep In touch Sword Face!!

Cheers!

[kurtholz]

hahaha

no magic Bixby dirt is an extra, you just throw it all around the floor, makes Rotel sound like Hi-Fi

:-)

did you get back in with the list god's, try and keep them answers clean, bad boy

hahahahaha

regards

Kurt

[chinets]

Kurt,

I thought that was the recipe for the Krell Hi Fi systems?????????? They make them sound like Rotel beasts once in that magic bixby dirt of yours!!!

Got in by the hair of my chin chin chin!! Shaved by a Whisker !! Ha Ha Ha !!!

Keeping as clean as a whistle here!!! THE SAINT!!!!!!!!!

Listen bad boy: Get your swords sharped my friend ,you never know, you might get the boot next??

HaHaHaHa,

Reagrds to you too my dear friend.

Cheers
Chinets!!!